| Author | Message | ||
| Mommyk Registered user Username: Mommyk Post Number: 252 Registered: 4-2007  |
Paul..thank you so much for sharing your very personal testimony with us. Like Keri said, God does redeem all! And I too agree and love how you stated that, "Christ in my heart is God's law"! Blessings to you! ~Kristen | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1628 Registered: 4-2000  |
Paul, Thank you for your response. What is your view toward the many restated Old Testament moral laws in the New Testament? Should we ignore them or obey them? Moreover, do you think that we have an obligation to obey the many lists against specific sins in the New Testament? For example, did the Apostle Paul just needlessly make a list without divine authority because of the indwelling Spirit? Should we take the words of the New Testament seriously? Dennis Fischer (Message edited by Dennis on March 19, 2009) | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1629 Registered: 4-2000 |
Colleen, As you may already know, I do not embrace CT nor the recent NCT. Both theologies, in my view, are on the extreme ends of a scale--CT making the new covenant merely into a warmed-over old covenant and NCT completely ignoring the covenantal commonalities. Thus, CT largely avoids covenantal distinctives while NCT completely ignores any commonalities. Furthermore, NCT tends to view the OT canon as somehow inferior to the NT canon (the NT superceding the OT). Wouldn't life be boring if we all had the same conclusions about everything? Oh well, I love both my CT and NCT friends. Dennis Fischer (Message edited by Dennis on March 19, 2009) | ||
| Pnoga Registered user Username: Pnoga Post Number: 246 Registered: 1-2007  |
Dennis, I believe what Jesus commanded and what He gave His apostles to command should be our moral guide. I believe that most of them can be found in the Old Testament in some form or fashion. Most of them are found in the decalogue but the decalogue is not the foundation of God's Law. God is the foundation of His law and the decalogue and the other commandments that teach us how to love God and others are were just temporary until the True representation of God's righteousness was revealed in Jesus. The Stone was glorious at the time, but the true Stone is my Rock Jesus Christ. I do not murder because the old stone said do not commit murder. No Jesus said if you hate your brother or call him fool you are guilty of murder. Now since I know just calling someone fool can make me guilty before God, why on earth would I need to worry about physical murder. On the other hand which of us is not guilty of those things such as the way we treat others from the heart. That is why in God's Grace and Mercy He provided us the righteousness of Jesus, He keeps covenant for me. I am in no way free to sin, in fact under the New Covenant I am always being corrected by the Spirit in regard to my heart. But I am saved by Grace and not of works of the law. I have no problem reading the Old Covenant, and I will say I love God's laws in my inner self, I just know my flesh cannot keep the law. But by believing in Jesus and His righteousness I in my inner man am saying I love God's law, I know only God is Holy Just and Good. CT, NCT Just labels. I know that the Old Covenant made with Israel at Sinai is the 10 Commandments. I know scripture is clear that the Old Covenant came to an end. I know that Israel rejected the Old Covenant by turning from God rejecting Him, the rejected the stone and they rejected the true Stone, Jesus. The 10 Commandments specifically forshadowed Christ. They followed the Ark of the Covenant, They d(12 tribes)camped around the tabernacled which the Stone Covenant was the central point, the cornerstone if you will... Jesus (The Word of God) became flesh and tabernacled with the 12 apostles, He said to them Follow me. Jesus said come to Me and I will give you rest, He said He is Lord of the Sabbath. John in 1 John said the commandments of God were to believe in His Son Jesus and love others as He (Jesus) gave us commandment. The old covenant was a covenant of Israel does and earn righteousness, they had a zeal for God but not according to God's righteousness but they tried to establish their own righteousness by works of the law. The New Covenant is Jesus in our Heart by ministry of the Holy Spirit, we are the temple/tabernacle of God. And it's His righteousness in us, not us trying to obtain a righteousness that we cannot, because we cannot be like God, or sit on His throne. But God can be in us and seat His throne in us. I will not and cannot say that the decalogue is my moral guide. Because God has taken that away and replaced it with the law of the Spirit of life that was in Jesus. If the decalogue was still enforce than why would God inspire Paul to call them the Minstry of death written and engraved on stones?, Why would He say that they have grown old and faded away? What would make the New Covenant different from the Old Covenant? What would be the difference between having the 10 commandments which were kept in the Ark behind a veil in the tabernacle/temple that no one could go near except the High Priest but once a year after being cleansed and with blood of sacrifice and smoke of incense, no one could even touch the ark or they would die, they had to be written in the book of the law to teach, and we all know that Israel kept them in their heart as they memorized them. If that is all God required of us than why the need for Jesus? If keeping and obeying the decalogue is something we can do than did Jesus really need to come and fulfill the law and prophets and die on the cross? So is the Bible's main foundation the decalogue or Jesus? Did the decalogue point to Jesus and than Jesus come and die to point to the decalogue? Something changed otherwise there would be no need for the new covenant. I know the answer, the fault is with us, we cannot keep it. The decalogue for us can only point out our sin, if it could change us than God would not have come in the flesh and taken our punishment. So what changed? Am i able to keep God's law now since Jesus died on a cross, although I believe withou seeing? It was 2000 years ago, I could easily read the Old Testament and say I believe God and will follow His laws because He wants me to be obediant, but can I? No I can no better follow the law now or then because I am subjected to sin, but given a way to die to sin. As much as I want to, I cannot keep God's law according to my works. I will fail, I'm telling you the truth now. How can I say that I can now be obediant because Jesus died on a cross, I would make God a liar and we know He is not. I am the liar. God wants me to be obediant in Faith in Jesus. We are only seen as sinners if we do not have Christ. I am a sinner, and if I stand before God without Christ I am lost. I didn't change what changed is that God had mercy on me and gave me Jesus to stand before him. I am righteous because I am in Christ. I do my best to Love God with all my heart, mind and sould, and love my others as Christ has loved me, but I stumble and I fall way short of God. But that does not change that I am already credited righteousness by Christ's Love for the Father and for us, and most importantly by Christ's blood. Paul | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9579 Registered: 12-2003  |
I just have to clarify that I've really studied "official" NCT very little. I don't actually know all that the school of thought called New Covenant Theology actually teaches. I know what Dale Ratzlaff says in Sabbath in Christ, and more than that, I know what I see as I move through the epistles and revisit the gospels slowly and methodically. So I can't say I endorse NCT or any other official theological statement. And yes, it's a wonderful thing that we don't have to agree on how we see the details! Jesus is enough! Colleen | ||
| Mommyk Registered user Username: Mommyk Post Number: 255 Registered: 4-2007 |
AMEN Paul! | ||
| Pnoga Registered user Username: Pnoga Post Number: 247 Registered: 1-2007 |
Sorry about all the typos in my last post. I typed it up really quick before I went to bed around 12am (EST). Dennis, hope that helps you understand where I am coming from on what I gather from scripture and what I feel the Spirit is working in me. Paul (Message edited by pnoga on March 20, 2009) | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 1879 Registered: 8-2004  |
Thank you Paul! You have described what I understand also, and you said it much better. Blessings, Mary | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1630 Registered: 4-2000 |
Paul, Thank you again for your reply. However, you didn't address my inquiry as to your position on the NT lists for Christian conduct (many coming directly from the OT). There are more rules for personal conduct in the NT than in the entire OT. All in all, as I have indicated earlier, the ethics of the OT law are the ethics of the NT gospel. For example, murder is still murder, stealing is still stealing, and honoring one's parents is still honoring one's parents. Are you really opposed to following such restated directives found in the New Testament? Dennis Fischer | ||
| Pnoga Registered user Username: Pnoga Post Number: 248 Registered: 1-2007 |
Dennis, No I am not opposed to following the directives, But remember, I'll say it again. Jesus said Murder starts from the heart, if you hate your brother without cause you are guilty, if you call your brother/neighbor a fool you are worthy of hell fire. Jesus said that if you look at a woman with lust you are guilty of adultry of the heart. That to me tells me the true condition of my heart. If I do not murder which I would not want to, and which is still good that I obey that command, but yet call someone fool or mistreat someone, or neglect someone who may need help, would that not make me just as bad. And now if I understand my condition and allow the Spirit to work in me by submitting And I hold back from insulting others, not allow my temper to control my actions, would I murder? Would murder even come up in my mind if I really allowed God's law to work in my heart? Would that command be the reason I didn't murder or because the Spirit of the law which teaches me that even thinking hateful thoughts towards my neighbors is evil in God's eyes. Paul cleary states if we have the Spirit we are no longer under the law because our flesh is dead yet our spirit is alive because of Christ. Can you please explain that to me? I take it like this when I repent from my sins which the Law clearly points out to me, which Jesus came and revealed the real heart of the matter thus showing me that even though because I did not murder I was still guilty, because I was calling others fools, and insulting others, I was having hateful thoughts towards others, I surely wasn't loving my enemies, I could tell you if someone were to harm my wife or children I would have a hard, very hard time loving the person who did it. Jesus did not come to show us how to keep the law, He came to show us that we cannot keep the Law but He can and will keep it for us and earn the blessings that were received for keeping it all and credit us that righteousness by believing that. And at the same time He took on the cursing of the law if one point of it was broken, which we are all guilty of, Jesus took those cursings for us. Jesus has done it all for us. Jesus always criticized the pharisees, scribes, etc because most of them kept the law as written, yet their hearts were far from God. So Dennis, should we keep those rules of personal conduct, as Magnafied, filled full by Jesus? I say with a resounding Yes we should. But now I ask you... Can we? I say no we cannot but if we repent and come to Jesus God will keep us until we are redeemed from our sinful flesh and this corruptable puts on incorruptable. And it is God who sanctifies us and works in our hearts as we continue to submit, but we all remain with these thorns in our flesh until God chooses, for now His Grace is sufficient. So again murder is still murder, stealing is still stealing, lying is still lying,etc but Jesus has shown us that it goes much deeper than that, and we on our own can not keep from doing all of those commandments. Dennis I think we are actually on agreement with God's moral rules and conduct. But I want to ask you this one question if you don't mind answering me... Can you keep them? Do you keep them without breaking 1 point ever at all? Although we agree that we should, I differ in that I do not think we can keep God's law the way a Holy, Just and Good God demands. To say that we can would be saying that we are God. I don't believe the creation can ever be like the creator. God chooses to have a relationship with us and gives us a way to come before Him even while we are still yet sinners. He is showing us His mercy, come wash in the blood of Jesus, put on His robe. What is most sinful to God is rejecting Him, not believing Him. Paul | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1631 Registered: 4-2000 |
Paul, Since we fully agree that only Jesus kept the law perfectly, does this mean that we shouldn't bother to even think about honoring our parents? After all, our very best efforts (in our fallen nature) in honoring our parents are far short of God's ideal anyway. Obviously, to come anywhere near to actually "obeying" any of God's directives, we need the benediction and empowerment of the indwelling Spirit. But even with God's direct assistance, our human efforts are woefully short of being sufficient. We retain the image of God structurally, in the sense that our humanity is intact, but not functionally, for we are now sin's slaves and unable to use our powers to mirror God's holiness. Regeneration begins the process of restoring God's moral image in our lives, but not until we are fully sanctified and glorified shall we reflect God perfectly in thought and action. The fallen human heart dislikes God's law, both because it is a law and because it is God's; those who know Christ, however, find not only that they love the law and want to keep it, out of gratitude for grace but also that the Holy Spirit leads them into a degree of obedience, starting with the heart, that was never theirs before. God's moral laws are abundantly set forth in Scripture, the Decalogue, other Mosaic statutes, sermons by the prophets, the teaching of Jesus, and the New Testament letters. It reflects his holy character and his purposes for created human beings. God sovereignly commands the behavior that he loves to see and forbids that which offends him. May God's people we be found willing to live heaven's life among themselves and to be God's counterculture in the world. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 1885 Registered: 8-2004 |
Actually the Christians I know love Christ and want to follow Him. | ||
| Pnoga Registered user Username: Pnoga Post Number: 249 Registered: 1-2007 |
Dennis I can agree with what you said. But do you think God's law is the decalogue or do you think it is something much more than that? I tend to think when we love Jesus we love God's law since Jesus came to reveal God's true Law. And although we are in sin, and yet we stumble we keep our eye on Jesus and He will pick us up. Is not Jesus the stone that the builders rejected. When we reject Christ we reject God's law. So we both love and accept Jesus, we are not without God's law. We are saying although we are sinners we love God's law. And when we come to Jesus He causes us to obey. And obeying comes from the Spirit not the letter. Those who reject Jesus reject God's law because as you perfectly said, the fallen human heart dislikes God's laws. Accepting Jesus is saying to God "I love your laws", rejecting Jesus is saying "I hate your laws", "I don't believe you", or "I can keep the laws on my own and face you in my own pride and arrogance". Thanks for your input and helping me to view my beliefs closer Paul | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1632 Registered: 4-2000 |
Paul, You present some excellent thoughts. Of course, I am not in any way advocating allegiance to the Old Covenant, nor to the Torah (Law or Pentateuch), and nor to the Decalogue as complete units. Otherwise, I would be a staunch believer in Covenant Theology. My wife Sylvia (my favorite theologian) rightly calls it "Adventist Theology." What I am advocating, however, is a high regard for the moral precepts taught by Jesus and the apostles. You see, the Torah contains a total of 613 ceremonial, civil, judicial, and moral laws. As I indicated earlier, the Jews were smart enough to know that not all of these 613 laws in the Torah carried the same importance, weight, and purpose. Without any doubt, we can clearly see the validity of the nine commandments (from the Decalogue) that are restated in the NT several times. These nine restated moral precepts contain absolutely nothing that a Christian would not delight to uphold--even though imperfectly. In addition, the NT reiterates many other moral precepts from the Extended Laws of the Torah. The Decalogue by itself, as merely a basic summary of the Torah, was never intended as a sufficient moral compass for the Hebrew people. Thus, the Decalogue would certainly not be a sufficient moral guide, by itself, for Christians as well. Since God is the ultimate author of the Bible, He sovereignly and inerrantly inspired (God-breathed) every word therein--not merely some selective thoughts as we learned in Adventism. Since the Bible is our all-sufficient moral guide to human conduct, the indwelling Spirit only verifies and encourages obedience to God's revealed will for humankind. The indwelling Spirit never contradicts, but only and always confirms God's written Word. God's holy, moral laws transcend all covenants (exempla gratiae, compare Noahic to Mosaic, Mosaic to New Covenant, etc.). The common thread in all the covenants in redemptive history is God's holy, transcendant law. After all, the same holy and loving God is involved in each of them. It is akin to seeing a common Designer in creation. The Bible teaches that believers before and after the Cross are saved by grace alone. Jesus is the central theme of the whole Bible--not just the New Testament. The law (not including the obsolete judicial, civil, and ritual requirements under the Levitical system) tells God's children what will please their heavenly Father. This is the primary reason why we see the OT moral laws restated throughout the NT. As adoptees into God's wonderful family, it could be called our family code. God's moral directives reveal his holiness and sovereignty. It is indeed a very grave error to somehow even think about ignoring, belittling, or disparaging God's inspired directives for our lives. The Spirit-led life only confirms those divine pronouncements. While Jesus enlarged the moral principles taught in Scripture, He didn't thereby eliminate the basic, underlying elements in any of them. I must confess that my heart truly aches when I hear someone cast disparaging or belittling comments upon God's holy laws. Man was not created autonomous, that is, free to be a law to himself, but theonomous, that is, bound to keep the law of his Maker. The real truth is that there is absolutely nothing not like about our great God--including his rules for our happiness. C. S. Lewis aptly declared, "No man knows how bad he is until he has tried to be good." Please be advised that anything good you see in me is something Jesus Christ has done, and anything bad you see in me is something He's still working on. Truly, the will of God will not lead us where the grace of God cannot keep us. The well-known author and theologian, Dr. R. C. Sproul, candidly defines our plight in saying that "Sin is cosmic treason--an expression of enmity, and a crime." Unfortunately, it is a common overreaction to past legalism to cast aside all of God's rules simply because the festal Sabbath is an obsolete, ceremonial law (Lev. 23:2,3). Regrettably, I am a fully guilty of having done the very same in my early journey out of legalism. However, such a careless approach to the obsolete fourth commandment is overreaching the intent of the Christological and soteriological themes of Scripture. In addition, of course, such an unbiblical and irrational stance needlessly alienates both our Adventist and non-Adventist friends--thereby rightfully eroding our credibility in Christendom. With such views, we are rightly seen as apostates and active rebels against the holiness of God. Jesus said, "Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light" (Matt. 11:28-30 NASB). Resting in Him, Dennis Fischer (Message edited by Dennis on March 20, 2009) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9585 Registered: 12-2003 |
Dennis, the problem I see in your paragraphs above is your saying that living by the Spirit is being "a law unto ourselves". Nothing could be further from the truth. We are obligated to surrender every single annoyance, urge to be snide, to be greedy, to call our brother names, to engage in idle talk—EVERYTHING to the Lord Jesus. We are asked to give up our right to what ever desire or emotion we have and instead yield the moment to the Lord Jesus, allowing Him to remind us of Scripture, to give us the courage to resist hurting another or defrauding or sneaking in any way. To say we are not under the law is not to say we are not under "law". We are under the direct oversight of the Law Giver. I have the sensation of being "unheard" and misinterpreted--and no amount of clarifying seems to fix the problem! I am utterly incapable of being "moral". I must submit myself to every word of Scripture, believing it to be God's truth, and yield myself to Him in every response and desire and temptation. Paul explains, over and over, that the law was given for one purpose: to reveal sin, to bring about the knowledge of sin (Romans 3:21 for starters). It was never intended as a means of being moral. It was always the means of knowing sin. Faith in God has always been the means of righteousness, not the law. The law points out sin; the faith from God is the means of morality and righteousness. Living in submission to God and His word is not lawlessness. Taking the Bible's own description of the change in the priesthood necessitating a change in the law is likewise not lawlessness. Neither is living by the Spirit, taking every word of Scripture as my inspired revelation of God by God being "autonomous". Praising God for His living covenant of grace, Colleen | ||
| Bobalou Registered user Username: Bobalou Post Number: 57 Registered: 2-2005 |
We must remember that some of the 10, without many of the other 306 laws to explain the them, would not stand alone. Sabbath was a good example. Without the other laws defining how Israelites were to govern themselves, it would be anyones interpretation. Paul, your testimony was remarkable. I enjoy your posts on CARM. Bob | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 219 Registered: 10-2008 |
I just want to AMEN what you have said Colleen. I find that living in the Spirit is indeed following a righteousness that is "beyond/outside of" and much, much BIGGER than any list that could ever be produced on moral or right living. The 613 laws of the Torah or the laws Paul listed don't even come close to what it means to be living a life in Christ's righteousness. The laws and lists could never address all the experiences I come across in my daily living on this planet. Now when something happens and I feel myself wanting to react in some way . . . I can go directly to the source of the "law" (Law Giver) for the strength to do the "right" thing. It is not even going to get strength - it is having His strength lived out through me. Living in the Spirit is so much Bigger than any list, law, command, etc. . . Indeed, I can read scripture and be reminded of specific "sins" or morality that is abominable to God - but Jesus definitely expanded the idea of a righteousness outside of the law. Keri | ||
| Brian3 Registered user Username: Brian3 Post Number: 203 Registered: 8-2005 |
Dennis said "You see, the Torah contains a total of 613 ceremonial, civil, judicial, and moral laws. As I indicated earlier, the Jews were smart enough to know that not all of these 613 laws in the Torah carried the same importance, weight, and purpose." Could you expound on this a little more? Which of the myriad of laws given to an Israelite would not be moral just because God said so! All the laws seem to be pretty mixed together on the same list: Lev 19:18-19 NASB 'You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the LORD. (19) 'You are to keep My statutes. You shall not breed together two kinds of your cattle; you shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed, nor wear a garment upon you of two kinds of material mixed together. I don't see an Israelite having the option to make such a distinction. In Christ, Brian | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1633 Registered: 4-2000 |
Brian, Good question! The Jews were smart enough to know that not all of the 613 laws in the Torah had the same significance, weight, and purpose. For example, they did not regard the weekly Sabbath (fourth commandment) as a moral law. A moral law is in effect 24/7 (every nanosecond of time) and not merely once a year, season, month, or week. Thus, the fourth commandment clearly stands out from the other nine commandments with its obvious ceremonial elements. They clearly saw the ritual aspects of the Sabbath with its extra sacrificing and shewbread requirements. Clearly, the fourth commandment is completely different from the other nine pronouncements in the Decalogue. Also, non-Jews were not required to keep the Sabbath nor to tithe. Gentile believers only had to observe the Sabbath when they were guests in the homes of Jewish friends or wanted to worship at the temple. Some ultra-conservative Jews today take great offense when a Gentile tells them that they are also Sabbatarians. Tithe, for example, was only acceptable from the sacred soil of Palestine. This is one important reason why Jews today do not tithe. Importantly, it is impossible to tithe and/or observe the Sabbath properly without the Levitical system being fully in place. Moreover, the Sabbath was a very special covenant between God and Israel--the seal of the Old Covenant (appearing exacting in the center of the Decalogue in Hebrew). Just as there were different laws to govern their theocracy, there were different punishments as well for the violation of those laws. It was not a one-punishment-fits-all thing. Also, ceremonial laws would never trump a moral law in the Torah (i.e., as when eighth-day circumcision fell on the Sabbath). Remember, there were non-Decalogical moral laws as well (i.e., prohibitions against bestiality, homosexuality, willful death of fetus, etc.). It is significant to remember that moral laws are not limited to the tiny land of Palestine as was the case with the Sabbath and tithe laws; moral laws, on other hand, are universally-applicable--extending even to the remote regions of midnight sun and to the modern space station. Hopefully, this answers your question. If not, please feel free to let me know. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Brian3 Registered user Username: Brian3 Post Number: 204 Registered: 8-2005 |
Dennis, Thanks for the further comment. I understand that looking back we can determine some differentiation in the laws. I'm just not convinced that the Jews had that luxury. How do you come by your understanding that the Jews saw it this way? You and I can agree that a so called "Moral" law is in effect 24/7. Also, I'm confused by your example of a "Moral" law trumping a "Ceremonial" law as both laws in your example I would deem "Ceremonial" (Circumcision and Sabbath). Lev 19:27-30 NASB 'You shall not round off the side-growth of your heads nor harm the edges of your beard.(Ceremonial?) (28) 'You shall not make any cuts in your body for the dead nor make any tattoo marks on yourselves (Ceremonial,Civil,Moral?): I am the LORD. (29) 'Do not profane your daughter by making her a harlot, so that the land will not fall to harlotry and the land become full of lewdness.(Moral,Civil?) (30) 'You shall keep My sabbaths and revere My sanctuary; I am the LORD.(Ceremonial,Civil)? IMO, all the commands in the text above where "Moral" for the people under that covenant because of the "I am the Lord". Also, I'm sure this is an old argument you've heard, but the opposite of Moral would be Immoral not Civil or Ceremonial.  I guess I remain unconvinced of a three-fold division of the Law of Moses. In Christ, Brian |
