| Author | Message | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 704 Registered: 7-2007 |
The Bible says simply: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved" - Acts 16:31 The Bible speaks of a relationship with God; whereas a RELIGION is man's attempt to be right with God. Adventism, Catholism, JW, Mormonism, ADDS works, however subtly to God's word - whether the "work" is to abstain from coffee (ask an Adventist whether a person would be saved who was never able to kick the "coffee habit" and was still drinking it when Jesus returned), or whether a person is supposed to "go to mass" (Catholic), in order to be saved, etc. A Christian is someone who has accepted the Lord and HAS BEEN SAVED. When I was an Adventist, I could never completely "put my weight down" on Ephesians 2:8,9 where it says that believers "HAVE BEEN SAVED." (see also 2nd Timothy 1:9 and Titus 3:5,6) Because of that, I WASN'T saved when I was an Adventist, because I wasn't completely accepting Jesus' sacrifice for me. How many religions have been started by an "angel from heaven" telling a person some new "truth" from God? Galatians 1:8 says: "But even if we, or an ANGEL FROM HEAVEN, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed." The sad thing is, if a person doesn't "put their weight down" on Jesus' finished work, on His sacrifice for them; they WON'T be saved because they are relying, at least in part, on themselves for salvation. A person in that place DOESN'T HAVE salvation! Salvation is ALL OF GOD. There will only be two groups at the end. Those who have completely accepted God's work in their behalf and those who haven't. (Those who add ANYTHING in order to be saved are in the latter group.) | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 705 Registered: 7-2007 |
Oh, I think I'd better clarify something. I think there might be people who think that if they just mouth the right words, as some sort of "magic formula," then they have their "fire insurance" and can go on their merry way. I have a couple young non-Adventist relatives who might be like that. I've asked them if they've accepted the Lord and they say yes, but I don't see any of the special joy in their eyes that real Christians have. They're both cheerful young men, but there's something about a real Christian that just shines out of his/her eyes and manner. Part of the "package" of the new life given to a Christian is the indwelling Holy Spirit. As the Bible says; the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace... etc. When I was an Adventist, I was cheerful too; always smiling and saying "hi," but I didn't have that deep, special heart-connection to God that Christians have. You who are Christians know what I'm talking about. It's not easy to explain that deep sense of wonder, joy and connectedness to God that I have now. I wish I could explain it to my relatives, but words just don't convey it. | ||
| Borninchrist Registered user Username: Borninchrist Post Number: 191 Registered: 1-2009  |
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| ~angel~ Registered user Username: ~angel~ Post Number: 519 Registered: 3-2008  |
I totally know what your saying. I'll second that Amen! ~Angel~ | ||
| Scarred4life Registered user Username: Scarred4life Post Number: 25 Registered: 1-2009 |
There will only be two types of people, who are alive in the last days. Those who Don't or Do follow the Antichrist. | ||
| Pnoga Registered user Username: Pnoga Post Number: 251 Registered: 1-2007  |
I just found out yesterday that the LDS church is building a church about 2 miles away from my house. I think this will be the first LDS church in my city. It won't be long before they come knocking on my door. | ||
| Psalm107v2 Registered user Username: Psalm107v2 Post Number: 163 Registered: 10-2008  |
So very true. Also each of the churches above has an extra-biblical authority whether it be thier own version of the Bible (Book of Morm, Clear Word. New world translation, papal bulls/apocrypha) Pnoga, You have a mission field coming to your doorstep. should you take the challenge, you can be the missionary instead of the mormon. Near my home in Mesa Arizona there's a big temple and every so often I go in and "have a chat" witht them. I haven't been in AZ for a bit but when they come be armed with the gospel Here's a link I came across yesterdy on youtube that I plan to use next time with Mormons http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CFx4Hezdz0 | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1408 Registered: 6-2006  |
Enoch, I watched that vid and really liked it. It appears that the interviewer made the guy stop and think. There's one thing that concerned me though. The interviewer was great about explaining God's free gift, but he left out the Holy Spirit and the change that occurs in trusting and believing Jesus. I think it confused the guy. Obviously, cult members don't understand being born again, and that whole "works" issue trips them up every time. The interviewer just told him (something to the effect of) "If you believe then you'll show that you're a Christian by your good works". I just think it's so important to explain what the Holy Spirit does in the process to differentiate between works righteousness and new birth. I wish you well with the Mormons, and everyone else with whom you come in contact...  Leigh Anne | ||
| Martinc Registered user Username: Martinc Post Number: 81 Registered: 9-2006 |
False doctrines hinder trust in God and erect idols that vie for allegiance. I agree, we need to be convicted that God exists and that he is able to reward those who seek him. That's the definition of saving faith in Hebrews 11. Must this be a perfect faith, that has thrown out all the little idols that hinder faith? This side of glorification, we are never separated from the love of Christ because we have been called according to his purpose, not because of our strong purpose. If we make perfect trust the only faith that saves, then paradoxically, we prevent ourselves from having strong assurance. We will be focused on ourselves instead of trusting in Christ, the object of our faith. So it is possible for a person to have been given saving faith without perfect conviction. Regeneration is a subtle, quiet work on the human spirit--like the wind. "You cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going." We are not always able to see its action and identify another's heart as born again. We look at the "outward appearance," while God is working on the inner person. That less-than-vibrant person we observe may be "getting his field plowed" by the Spirit. That is why I believe there are Adventists, Mormons, and Roman Catholics who know Jesus. It is a wonder that he can save any of us. | ||
| Stevendi Registered user Username: Stevendi Post Number: 428 Registered: 10-2006 |
Thank you Martinc. Asurprise: "The sad thing is, if a person doesn't "put their weight down" on Jesus' finished work, on His sacrifice for them; they WON'T be saved because they are relying, at least in part, on themselves for salvation. A person in that place DOESN'T HAVE salvation! Salvation is ALL OF GOD." This sounds like Ellen White. Do you really believe that when Christ comes, the only people will be those who have completely stopped all forms of self-reliance? This is the essence of sin and none of us will be totally free of it until we are changed by Him when He comes. We will still be trying to settle our guilt in sinful fleshly ways. The only difference is that the believer will have admitted it and confess it daily, trusting in Christ to fix it. Your criteria for separating the saved and lost is rhetorically pleasing, but false. If we could spell things out that simply, then let's place a mark on those who comply with your conditions of salvation, and be done with this world right now. Obviously, this isn't where God is now, He has not written off any group in a wholesale act, at least not yet. And when He does, we'll all know it at the same time, and we'll all see our shortcomings. Salvation is not based on what we do nor on what we don't do. As you state, it depends on Christ. We will not be saved because of our trust or lack of it. We will be saved because we give up thinking about that and cling to Him out of desperation. The only thing the saved will have that the unsaved won't have is Jesus and His righteousness. I must ask you: Are you "putting your weight down" all the time, in all situations in order to be saved. Is this something that Adventists, Mormans, etc. cannot experience, in spite of their screwed up doctrine? See Romans 3 and Acts 15. Steve | ||
| 8thday Registered user Username: 8thday Post Number: 788 Registered: 11-2007  |
Actually, I know there are people in my evangelical church now who have not put their trust completely in Christ, but I'm not sure I can always tell who they are. There are those who have, but the focus of their love and passion is misplaced. There are some who know the Lord, but are not particularly joyful for many reasons. I KNOW I was saved before leaving the SDA church. It was this connection with God through His Spirit that I relied on to lead me out of the confusion. I had experienced true repentance for my sinful condition and submitted to Christ in my life. My head however was programmed very badly and I could not discern the contradictions for a time. We have no idea, looking at some Adventists (and granted the numbers could be very few), at what stage they may be in - if the Holy Spirit is not working to show them, in HIS time, the things that contradict and work against the faith they truly do possess. I have to believe the light of the truth, the mercy of God, and the blood of his atonement covers even the sins we cannot see when we come to Him. I could not for a few years acknowledge the contradiction that my THEOLOGY stated I had to trust in the Sabbath when my heart truly trusted in Christ alone. My thinking was not clear enough to perceive this for a time. God allowed me to see it through many different ways and thankfully I came into freedom, but it took a very long time. I cannot look at any group of people where a Bible is available and read that there are not some there who have not been born again, and waiting for deliverance. I keep saying I'm not going to enter this discussion, then I do. =) I realize many people did not experience a new birth until they left Adventism, and they see a huge contrast between their experience with God before and after. I totally understand that. But I have felt the Lord close to me every since being saved, even though I had to travel many wrong roads. Sondra (Message edited by 8thday on March 25, 2009) | ||
| 8thday Registered user Username: 8thday Post Number: 789 Registered: 11-2007 |
One other thought - Adventism has no teaching of new birth or what salvation really is. They define conversion as accepting all the sda doctrines - just head knowledge. I was saved in a charismatic church - but still did not realize nor could I explain what had happened to me. I just knew everything was different from that point on. But the wild antics of those Pentecostals freaked me out (yeah River, ya'll can get CRAZY! ha.) and I ran back to the comfort of "home" which actually was necessary in order to process all the junk I still had in my head. You cannot look at any given SDA and have any idea where there heart is at just because their membership may be on the books. Just my opinion. Sondra | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 1793 Registered: 10-2002  |
1) "Works" worked into "salvation" strongly or subtly, but always there nonetheless 2) Extra-biblical "authority" & traditions that trump contextual exegesis 3) A belief that each is itself "the one true church" 4) "good" missionary programs (that is, operationally efficient) 5) A very strong inability to fellowship with each other 6) A lot of artwork (requiring great skill for the realism, but often kind of dead otherwise, save some Catholic) 7) Spiritual stagnation -- the "truth" is already known and institutionalized: you must conform to our institution 8) With SDA & Catholicism, emphasis on shadows instead of Him who is the Substance | ||
| Martinc Registered user Username: Martinc Post Number: 83 Registered: 9-2006 |
Ramone, I like your list of 8 items that the four groups have in common. Number 6 intrigued me, "A lot of artwork (requiring great skill for the realism, but often kind of dead otherwise, save some Catholic)." This is so true, I have noticed the stiff realism in their art. Remember the illustrated Bible Story by Maxwell? There's a study: everybody looks so clean, controlled, and completely sanitized from any kind of healthy sensuality. The cover art on this SS Quarterly also comes to mind. But not to just pick on Adventists, Mormons, and JW's. This is my opinion, but there is a surprising lack of good art in the Christian world in general. Why is this so, if it is so? Francis Schaeffer discussed this in his 1973 book, "Art and the Bible." Here's a sample quote: "The ancients were afraid that if they went to the end of the earth, they would fall off and be consumed by dragons. But once we understand that Christianity is true to what is there, including true to the ultimate environment -- the infinite, personal God who is really there -- then our minds are freed. We can pursue any question and can be sure that we will not fall off the end of the earth. Such an attitude will give our Christianity a strength that it often does not seem to have at the present time." (Francis A. Schaeffer, Art and the Bible, Ch. 1) | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 706 Registered: 7-2007 |
Steve, When I was an Adventist, I couldn't believe Ephesians 2:8,9 (and other verses) where it says that the believer "has been saved" and that salvation is a "free gift;" because of what Ellen White said. I WANTED to be saved of course. I was trying to be right with God by doing all the right things. (Asking forgiveness all the time, making sure I wasn't doing some "known" sin, etc.) Without realizing it, I was rejecting Jesus sacrifice in my behalf because I wasn't accepting it. I didn't know the Bible really meant what it said, because Ellen White said differently. Actually I thought I just didn't properly understand it and that I had to use Ellen White's writings to understand it correctly. Trusting in Jesus' finished work is absolutely VITAL to salvation! Also the "object" of your trust has to be worthy of that trust. All the cults have a false "Jesus." SDAs have an investigator that doesn't know everything. Catholics have a victim that becomes a piece of bread at every "mass." Mormons and JWs have a "Jesus" that started out as a created being. | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 1794 Registered: 10-2002 |
Martin, I first realized the "art" connection when a friend ran a blog series that compared similarities in Christian art with propagandic art (such as seen in Cuba, the former Soviet Union, and in Nazi Germany). The realism style is the same, and also the very "pious" looks of upstanding, clean figures and near-utopic scenes. The implications of this are very frightening -- well, at least they ought to be sobering, I think. At the first it would indicate that there is a lack of imagination --- but that itself is a fruit, not the root. The root of that would be that there is a strict communal "vision" and everyone--including foremost the artists--must bend to set their sights on that same vision. People cannot envision things beyond what the communal vision has dictated. The bar is set, paradise defined, "God" defined. By the way, I guess you'd noted that I said "Christian art" above instead of just the four groups mentioned in this thread. Generally, it is true of most "Christian" art as well. The art of the "Christian cults" (SDA, LDS, JW) is generally drier than regular Christian, but regular Christian is also commonly dry as well. The "Christian Cult" art has an added element, though: it tries to depict the apocalyptic and it's interpretations of the apocalyptic... and it usually comes across very dry, 1950ish, and crazed-looking. This, by the way, is perhaps the one common trait in the three "Christian Cults" that just screams "CULT!" the loudest. In general Christian art, however, the bar is still set and the product still dry. It's a sort of industry that demands a regular product -- Biblical scenes in oil-painting realism, generally brightly lit, with soft green grass and light blue colors. Occasionally people are still clad in 1950s formal wear. Sometimes people look more modern, but an odd thing happens then... they often look like 1950s people wearing modern clothes! It's a mystery to me... but I think this means that there is a sort of "rut" that Christian art got stuck in somewhere along the line. I spoke of it being like an industry or factory, and that's true for Catholic art as well, which once used to produce beautiful, stunning works of art, but today churns out things equally dry as that in 1950s American protestantism. I think one of the reasons that Catholic art had been so great in the past was simply because it grew in an age where the arts were still experimental, and artists were really pushing the envelope -- even though today their works look "classic" and "standard", in fact in their day they were pushing the boundaries. That, and it should be noted that many of the artists simply painted biblical scenes so as to not lose the approval of the state churches. They did "Christian art" simply because they wanted to do art and (1) make a living, and (2) not get in trouble for their painting subjects. This in turn highlights one of the problems that limits expression & imagination -- the fear of getting something theologically wrong or getting judged for it by the rest of the church. Whereas in the art of the Catholic church's heyday you had an actual church authority looming over you & your works should they step out of line with the institution's vision, today you have (in evangelical Protestantism) a sort of theological standard of judgment. People habitually look with eyes of judgment, especially at the arts ("music" gets this ungraceful treatment the worst). It's strange... I didn't realize this when I started writing, but the lack of grace in the church seems to have a direct affect on the amount of creative art produced (this, in turn, reflects the degree to which people feel comfortable expressing their true selves and being themselves "in church"). Perhaps the most famous example of this is Vincent van Gogh, who had a soul that wanted to be a minister and identify with common people, but who was rebuked by the church establishment for not looking dignified enough. He would paint later on and portray common people, and would put in subtle things of his faith here and there. But at other times, there would be subtle hints of the ungrace that the church exuded... an open Bible with a candle next to it that's flame had been snuffed out... a beautiful starry night and lit-up town with a darkened church at its center. While Van Gogh's run-in with the church's ungrace happened before he made his great paintings, nonetheless it still shows that he was one of many who have not found the environment of the church to be supportive of artistic expression. (One good article here, and another good one here) Of course, in saying all these things, the obvious irony is that I am a "Christian artist" too and it might look like I'm criticizing others' work and trumpeting my own. Hah! No. I don't have a lot of skill as far as artists go, and I'm still looking for my stride, so to speak. I am not yet as disciplined as many artists are and as an artist should be. And more important than these things about me, there really are a lot of very good Christian artists out there who don't paint dry, lifeless Biblical scenes. And there are even a few who paint Biblical scenes that have life in them. However on the whole, these kinds of quality artists' works are not the rule, but the exception. And of course, a lot of "art" is subjective. But nonetheless, it's good to soberly recognize that when Christian art resembles the propagandic art of dictators, something is indeed wrong. The thing that turned my "art" world upside down was meeting the Holy Spirit. Prior to that, I couldn't see any way of painting anything other than dry Biblical scenes. (I wrote about this a bit here). And I think that might be kind of a sort of key to this... that our degree of expression and creativity is often proportional to our degree of comfortability with the moving of the Holy Spirit in us and among us. I think this is why some of the most beautiful Christian art in modern times comes out of charismatic churches -- not only art, but also music, dance, and other forms of expression. Christians with artistic desires are often unable to see beyond the common "vision" of the "Christian life" that is set before them in church. And then the environment of suspicion towards the arts and the environment of ungrace that lashes out at people who slip... this keeps people down, not only in the arts, but regular people who can't be themselves. They are told to aim to "be like Christ", but the image of Christ is not the living Christ -- it's precisely that, an image that was painted somewhere between the late 1700s, nurtured in the 1800s, and painted in the 1950s. The kind of art that is allowable -- art that can be "endorsed", seen as being "right", or suitable to "be a blessing" -- is often as narrowed and constrictive as the theology of cessationism itself (mind you, sometimes I really want to say "the heresy of cessationism"), which limits God's talking to Bible study. I think we'll see art & artists & church members comfortable with creativity & expression only as we get in touch with the living God Himself -- not in touch with a theology, but with the living, communicating God. And when we begin to suck up His grace a lot more for one another, for ourselves, and for the world. Anyway, thank you for your comment, Martin! Sorry to have written an essay in response. I'll have to copy this to my website, I think. And big apologies to Asurprise for diverting the thread! (BTW, Asurprise, I thought your last paragraph really summed things up well!) Blessings in Jesus, Ramone | ||
| Martinc Registered user Username: Martinc Post Number: 84 Registered: 9-2006 |
Ramone, thanks for your excellent comments. Sorry for taking so long to respond, we've been gone. And sorry for diverting this thread, Asurprise. I read all the links and had no idea about Van Gogh's deep faith. My wife was amazed when I shared some of this with her. Mental illness and faith, there's another rich topic. Should this discussion about the arts be a separate thread, perhaps? | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 1807 Registered: 10-2002 |
New "art" thread is here: http://www.formeradventist.com/discus/messages/11/8545.html?1238404448 |
