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Agapetos
Registered user
Username: Agapetos
Post Number: 1787
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, March 19, 2009 - 2:46 am: |     |
quote:Is faith given to us by God? Or is faith something we have?
I think the Scriptures answers are YES, and YES.
I recommend spending some time in prayer about this with God. Ask Him, "God, where does my faith come from?" Well, ask Him, that is, if you can! Because He might start talking to you about something else.
C.S. Lewis wrote once that often our questions to God probably sound like, "Is 'yellow' square or round?" What I mean to say here in sharing this is not to get too worried about it. You have faith. Thank God for it. The exercising of faith and living in faith is more important than ontologically knowing where it comes from.
Bless you in Jesus!
Ramone
P.S. Did you know He has faith in you? |
Jrt
Registered user
Username: Jrt
Post Number: 210
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, March 19, 2009 - 5:10 am: | |
Ramone,
Thanks!! You are right - often our questions to God are like is "yellow" square or round?
There is no need to try to answer the questions I pose above - for anyone reading this thread . . .
This morning I got the best answer I could get as I was praying and listening to music . . .
"Safe in His grace, my soul finds rest"!!!!  (The words are from a Steve Green song)
I am at peace in Him Who gives me more abundantly than I could ask.
Keri |
Bobj
Registered user
Username: Bobj
Post Number: 422
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, March 19, 2009 - 6:18 am: | |
Keri
I stuff I wanted to share was directly on your question. It's a list of texts and commentary about faith being a gift.
I ordered a new copy of the book and will share later.
It looks like you've got great feedback already!
Safe in His grace!
Bob |
Jrt
Registered user
Username: Jrt
Post Number: 212
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, March 19, 2009 - 7:16 am: | |
Bob,
I look forward to what you will add and the texts you'll use . . .
I also reread Colleen's most recent post above and it "clicked". When I first read it - I wasn't getting "it". I think I understand better, now.
Yes, safe in His grace,
Keri |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 2643
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, March 19, 2009 - 12:10 pm: | |
quote:Is faith given to us by God? Or is faith something we have? I guess I've been thinking it is given by God. What is meant by "imputed"? Christ's righteousness is imputed to us, but faith is not? Then how does faith come into the picture? And maybe I don't have a "full" understanding of "imputed".
I think what Colleen meant was that it is not our faith itself that is "imputed" to us as being our righteousness. I don't think she meant that our faith is not a gift from God.
"Imputed" means credited to our account. Our faith is a gift from God, which He actually "imparts" to us. I don't have all the verses right in front of me, but if you do a word search for the word "faith" in the Bible you'll get many results which teach that it is a gift (including Ephesians 2:8-9).
Also, I believe that when it says that He gives us faith, it means that He actually gives us faith in Jesus Christ alone for our salvation, not that He just gives us some generic "faith" which we can then "choose" to "place" in Jesus or not. I don't see any evidence in Scripture to separate "faith" from "belief in Jesus." In other words, God gives us faith in Jesus, it's not something that we choose on our own--or else then we could boast about the fact that we are saved because we were smart enough to "choose" Jesus (and those who are unsaved weren't smart enough to do so). But Ephesians 2:8-9 leaves no room for boasting, because even our faith is a gift from God.
Jeremy
(Message edited by Jeremy on March 19, 2009) |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 9578
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 19, 2009 - 9:38 pm: | |
Very good clarification, Jeremy. Thanks!
Colleen |
Jrt
Registered user
Username: Jrt
Post Number: 215
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Friday, March 20, 2009 - 2:10 am: | |
Jeremy,
You were right to clarify - on the first read of Colleen's post above I had read into it that she meant our faith was not a gift from God. Sorry, Colleen. That is why I did ask the questions. I read it a second time yesterday, and saw better what was being communicated.
Let me see if I can explain where I am coming from . . . When I first began to search out for answers to my cognitive dissonance, last summer, I spoke with a pastor of a "Sunday" church (Where I am currently attending). Actually, I grilled him for 3 hours . We met two days latter and I grilled him for another 2 hours. One thing that he said/explained seemed to pierce my thoughts. He was trying to use a word picture for salvation. He said, "Picture a person dead in the water - face down - hands sprawled out in front. There is no way they can save themselves - because - well, they are dead. (Eph. 2:1) Then Jesus "wakes" them up enough to understand their condition - they are "dead". The 'dead' semi-conscious person calls out for help and Jesus grabs them and pulls them to shore resuscitating them back to full consciousness and life.
That word picture "stuck" for me - since I had worked toward my lifesaving degree as a teenager. We had been taught what to do when coming across a person drowning in the water. One thing a drowning person does is grab the lifeguard around the neck - to get air and keep themselves up out of the water. I was taught how to go immediately down into the water when grabbed like that - so the "drowning" person would let go and we both wouldn't drowned. Where am I going with this . . .
I asked the pastor if when Jesus wakes the "dead" person up enough - does the drowning person then grab the life buoy or life guard? He said, not really . . . Jesus then responds and places the hands of the drowning person around Himself and the dead drowning person is pulled to shore.
The pastor and I spoke of election and Calvinism. The pastor claims to be Calvinist (but not a 'legalistic' Calvinist). He said he didn't believe even Calvin would be a "full-on" Calvin today according to how people have specifically defined the 5 points of Calvinism. Especially, the part of "Irresistable Grace" - where a person cannot refuse Christ. The pastor said he did believe there came a point when we call out for help - there is a point of choice on man's part - to call for help or not.
Jeremy, to me that is not something to "boast" about. Calling out for help is an act of desperation and a realization that I can't do it on my own . . . nothing will save me. But yes, I do believe we have a response to make after Christ awakens in us an understanding of our 'deadness'. . .
The pastor and I talked further and I understood faith to be a gift. Jesus "wakes" up the dead/drowned person enough - gives them faith (which is the 'waking up' part) and then the person calls for help. They either respond by crying out for help in their condition or they don't.
I hope I've been able to explain clear enough my experience and the background to those questions.
Please feel free to challenge my thinking - for it only clarifies in my mind more what I truly believe and makes the paradigm shift that much more solid.
Blessings,
Keri |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 2644
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Friday, March 20, 2009 - 12:26 pm: | |
Keri,
Okay, using that analogy, let's say there are two people who have drowned, and they are both given the opportunity to choose help. If the first person chooses help and the second person doesn't, then the first one certainly could call the other person stupid and boast that he was smart enough to choose to be saved. Remember, the question is not whether the person would boast, but whether they even could boast. Paul says "so that no one MAY ["even possibly" in the Greek] boast" (Ephesians 2:9 NASB). Also, why would Jesus even "wake up" a drowned person just to let them drown again? Is that the kind of Savior He is? And since He knew what their choice would be, why even bother to "wake" them up? These are just the questions/thoughts that came to mind as I read your pastor's word picture.
I don't like to call myself a Calvinist, because I don't agree with the exact details that Calvinists usually teach and because many Calvinists actually teach salvation by works, but I do believe in the 5 points of the TULIP (as long as they are not interpreted to teach salvation by works).
I think "Irresistable Grace" is sometimes misunderstood to mean that God's grace can never be resisted. Actually, the unsaved do resist God's grace and reject the invitation to believe in Jesus and be saved. But what the "I" in the TULIP means is that the elect cannot resist God's grace, because He changes their will/desire so that they want to believe in Him. He does this by bringing them to life through the faith that He imparts to them (see Ephesians 2:1-9). Also, notice that nowhere in that passage does it say that when we were dead in our transgressions He partially made us alive so that we could then make a choice about whether or not we wanted to be saved. Instead, it simply says:
"5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)," (Ephesians 2:5 NASB). And Paul explains it further in verses 8-9, saying that it is all "the gift of God"--even the faith--and that it is "not of yourselves."
Jeremy
(Message edited by Jeremy on March 20, 2009) |
Jrt
Registered user
Username: Jrt
Post Number: 217
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Friday, March 20, 2009 - 2:26 pm: | |
Jeremy,
"He changes their will/desire so that they want to believe in Him" . . . I actually think we are on the same page . . .
So "the unsaved do resist God's grace and reject the invitation to believe in Jesus to be saved", but the saved never actually say, "Yes" or accept it? - Or they just don't resist grace? Is that what you are saying?
I honestly think we are closer in our thinking than a first glance would appear.
Keri
Bottom line: All are an object of God's wrath, no one seeks God, and man's righteousness is as dirty rags.
Yet, by His grace alone, through faith alone, I am saved. Thank you Lord! |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 2645
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Friday, March 20, 2009 - 4:41 pm: | |
Amen! The "bottom line" is the important thing, and Christians don't have to all agree on all the details.
quote:but the saved never actually say, "Yes" or accept it? - Or they just don't resist grace? Is that what you are saying?
I would say that when they are given faith and thus believe in Jesus and trust Him alone for their salvation--that is their "Yes." That is when they "receive Him."
"But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
13who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." (John 1:12-13 NASB.)
Jeremy |
Jrt
Registered user
Username: Jrt
Post Number: 220
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Saturday, March 21, 2009 - 7:18 pm: | |
It is interesting Jeremy that this dialogue seemed to follow me through the weekend. I spent a mini-retreat away from home - to reflect, pray, and read scripture. I had planned to read on a certain topic - but when flipping through a new Bible I purchased I came across a section on salvation.
I read through many texts on election (John 6:37-39, 44, 64-66; 8:47; 10:26; 15:16; Acts13:48; 16:14; Romans 9; 1 John 4:19).
And then I read several texts on how God brings people to Himself by calling them to faith in Christ (Rom. 8:30; 1 Cor. 1:9; 2 Tim. 1:9; 1 Peter 2:9).
Anyways, I appreciate your questions and probing Jeremy. It caused me to dig deeper.
You might say I understand election a little differently than before and God's calling us to faith in Christ . . . My thinking has changed a bit . . . I'm not sure I could articulate the change right now - so I won't try, but I believe it is more along the lines of what you were communicating. Thanks!
Blessings,
Keri |
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