| Author | Message | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 622 Registered: 7-2007 |
I don't remember it ever being called "replacement theology," from the pulpit of an Adventist church, but doesn't the SDA church believe that Christians have replaced Israel? It's strange that more Adventists didn't have cognitive dissonance in 1948 when Israel became a nation again after 1700 years or so. I mean, Ellen White said that "Old Jerusalem never would be built up." ("Early Writings", in the chapter called "The Gathering Time.") Well, maybe some Adventists DID have cognitive dissonance and I didn't hear about it. (The '40s was a decade that undermined more than one cult. The Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered then too, proving that the Bible was indeed translated correctly. Perhaps some Mormons had cognitive dissonance too. The "prophets" of both religions were dead by that time.) The Apostle Paul says, "...And so all Israel will be saved..." (Romans 11:25,26) (I think he's talking about the last days.) Zechariah 12:10 says that they will mourn the pierced One. Chapters 12-14 talk about nations attacking Israel and the Lord finally stepping in and defending Israel. Ezekiel 38,39 talk about a bunch of nations (including Magog and Persia which is Russia and Iran if I'm not mistaken), attacking Israel "in the latter years" Ezekiel 38:8. And Ezekiel 38:16 says that this will be "...in the latter days..." The Lord has miraculously kept Israel from being destroyed, though there are many Arab nations that have tried to destroy her. The six day war in 1967 is a wonderful example of how God not only fought for Israel but allowed Israel to gain land. I'm kind of excited about this, because things are moving in the middle east like never before. Record numbers of Muslims and Jews are turning to Jesus. And if I'm not mistaken, an alliance of some of those nations that are to attack Israel is forming too. The attention of the SDA church is on the wrong place. Instead of on the middle east, they are looking for a "Sunday law" to happen. This country isn't really in Bible prophecy so it might not even be here in the very last days. The very fact that there are Jews existing today is proof that God exists and has a plan for them. No other nation has survived as a people from way back then! Other nations have been annihilated or assimilated when they've been captured - none have lasted more than 200 years after being captured. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 6416 Registered: 3-2004  |
Asurprise, I learned in SDA schools/church that the adventists were spiritual Israel. I believed everything taught to me and never questioned it. Thank God He loves me and took me out of there. He is so awesome. Diana L | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4063 Registered: 9-2006  |
Asurprise, From the way I understand the Bible to read God will deal with Israel after the church age (or) more succinctly after the age of the gentles. We are being grafted in until the day when God will again deal with Israel. That is just my understanding of it. Now this is dealing with ages, not on a person to person bases, many Israelite's are being saved into the body of Christ. So I think we wave to look at Israel in the macro and not the micro. My understanding is pretty much the same as yours I guess. So I think there is a time limit on the gentiles. Of course we both said very little about the subject and we may have some differences on it. I guess you could say the Adventist *are* spiritual Israel, they are as much on the Sabbath as Israel is an just about as far away from God as they are or so they seem to me. So they are not as far from Israel as they thought they were, only they are gentiles and a time limit to get away from the law is in place in all likely hood. It'll be a little like drinking your own puke though when they find out the truth. Is there any salvation out side of grace? If there is no salvation in grace we faf'ers er in big trouble, ya might say we been had. River | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9344 Registered: 12-2003  |
Asurprise, I've thought about those things, too. That "time of the gentiles" idea never used to cross my radar screen. It's interesting that not only Paul spoke of the full number of Gentiles coming in, but Jesus, in Luke, spoke about the end of the time of the gentiles. We end up in deep trouble if we "spiritualize" away everything we don't quite understand. I'm find much peace in learning to live with mystery and allowing God to reveal truth in His time. Colleen | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 1681 Registered: 10-2002  |
The goal now for us is, I pray, to shift our attention from the Middle East and onto Christ. I wrote a little something related to this on a new blog (http://reconsecrating-eschatology.blogspot.com/2009/01/truth.html), but don't know how much time I'll have for writing. I've been praying about things recently, and hope to post a picture about it soon, as well. Bless you (all) in Jesus, Ramone | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 53 Registered: 10-2008 |
Help me understand what you mean by the "time of the gentiles"? JRT | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4064 Registered: 9-2006 |
Its been a long time since I approached this subject and I am far from fresh on it. Jesus went first to the Jews and they rejected him.Matthew 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. Acts 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. Acts 13:47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. Romans 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. Romans 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Romans 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; (which also the Adventist do) So the Jews have been temporarily blinded. Romans 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: Romans 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. Romans 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. This may sound like proof texting. These are only a few scripture to get you started. Israel was the original olive tree into which we, as gentiles have been grafted in.There should be no pride in this, but to glory in Gods mercy to us gentiles. I am of the mind that the greatest remnant of Jews will be saved during the trib. which will signal the end of the church age. I am in much disagreement with Ramone and some of the things he has stated concerning this has bothered me deeply. While it is true I believe we should focus our attention on Christ I also believe our prayers should include Israel, I myself love the Jews and Israel, I think God instill that in me when I got saved. Psalms 122:6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee. I am of the mind that those who hate Israel will be brought low. Basically I believe the church age is winding down fast and each Christian should work while there is still time. I have a watch on my wrist to tell the time of day, Israel is my time peace. We can pray for Israel at the same time we pray for the gentiles. I pray for Israel often. As for me I just don't have the time to be taken up in the studies of last days, nor do I have the luxury of time to be afraid or to be taken up in the headlines of the middle east. Like the watch I have on my wrist I glance at it from time to time, but I don't stare at it all day.Neither is my focus on my time peace the middle east, I glance at it from time to time. We work against the clock, whatever we are going to do for God, we better get doing it. I know you folk are looking at this with new eyes, because it is like seeing the Bible for the first time for you, but I have been looking at it for 38 some odd and many of the subjects brought up on here are stuff I studied a long time ago, this is one of them. Good blessings in your studies. River | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4065 Registered: 9-2006 |
I'll tell you another thing I am fast finding out, even though I do not agree with Ramone on what he has said in the past on this subject, I am finding out that I don't have the time to argue and bicker. I love Ramone, and I hope that he loves me.I am learning to love. To pass out a sweet potato, eh Ramone? God is taking me places I have never been and I aim to go where he takes me. River | ||
| Christo Registered user Username: Christo Post Number: 92 Registered: 2-2008 |
It occures to me that people will never get anywhere imitating more excellently, the branches that got cut off. Paul relised this, and accounted his excellency at being a better natural branch as any body could be, as dung. Whatever people we are,whatever age we are in ,what ever ages of the past, and whatever is to come, Christ Jesus is our salvation. Chris | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 54 Registered: 10-2008 |
Thank you River for taking the time to post and explain . . . In how you have studied - will all Jews be saved? Including like Caiphas and the other Pharisees - or Jews that come to a saving faith of Christ? . . . That may sound like a crazy question . . . Yep, crazy - it sounds like those Jews that come to a saving faith of Christ will be saved . . . Anyways, thanks for posting and the verses - always appreciate the verses and going over them and there context . . . Blessings, JRT | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 55 Registered: 10-2008 |
Okay, sorry, just read the whole thread again . . . I got the jest of it . . . JRT | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4066 Registered: 9-2006 |
With Jew as well as gentile it's faith alone in Jesus alone. Right now the Jews for the most part are still blinded, but when the church age (gentile age) is done a remnant will be saved. I think we, the gentile Christians as well as the Jewish who have Christ will have already scooted in the rapture. The dead in Christ shall rise first and we that are alive will be caught up to meet him. Just my thinking on it. River What a day that will be, when my Jesus I shall see' I will look upon his face, the one who saved me by his grace' Oh what a day, glorious day that will be' Brings tears to my eyes to say it. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9349 Registered: 12-2003 |
I agree, River. God will save a remnant. It's interesting how Ephesians and Colossians are so full of Paul's expounding on the mystery of the Gentiles being brought to Christ and Christ indwelling them...this mystery of the Gentiles being saved directly by God was hidden in great part throughout the OT. As Romans 11 states, we Gentiles have no right to be arrogant because just as we were grafted into the olive tree even though we were wild branches, God can cut our branches off just as He cut off the Jewish, natural branches because of unbelief. And, if He could graft the wild branches in, we must know that He can graft the natural branches back in if they do not persist in unbelief. Paul is clear that this is so because God will save ALL people because of faith. Everyone is saved the same way. Colleen | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 623 Registered: 7-2007 |
River, I gently disagree with you about the rapture. Well, mostly disagree with you. I'm still too new at being an actual Christian to completely disagree. It would be wonderful if the secret rapture were true and we could escape the tribulation, but in times past, people have had to go through their tribulations. Consider Noah and his family. Besides, I've found Ellen White to be a false prophet, so I'm hesitant to trust the word of another extra biblical source. I've heard that the theory of the secret rapture originated with a Miss Margaret Macdonald in Scotland in the 18 hundreds. I do agree with a lot of what you said though, River; and who knows? You may be right about the other stuff too!  Dianne | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4067 Registered: 9-2006 |
Dianne says: so I'm hesitant to trust the word of another extra biblical source. Extra biblical Dianne? And I did not say secret Rapture. I had never heard of Margaret Macdonald until I came to this website. I got that out of my own Bible. Thessalonians I 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. Thessalonians I 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. (guess that takes care of the soul sleep theory) Thessalonians I 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. Thessalonians I 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Thessalonians I 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Thessalonians I 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. This is where we get the word rapture, rapture doesn't mean secret or not secret lifting up into the heavens, it means ecstasy, delight, joy. But according to what I just quoted you we will also be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. Look Mom, no hands! Now where do you get the word secret here, no secret, look these physical bodies are going to perish, from the dust we were taken and from the dust we shall return, so there will be dead bodies laying all over the place I guess so how could that be a secret? I am talking Bible and you are talking extra Biblical here which is two different things. Are you telling me then that you don't believe the Bible? What else can you make of those scripture in so simple a language. Now consider this, the trib is a time when Gods wrath will be poured out on the people thats left. For what reason would he do this? I don't think so for here is what my Bible tell's me. Thessalonians I 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Here is what will happen in that time. Revelation 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: Revelation 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? Dianne, the Christian already has tribulation on every hand in this world, what do you call it when your own family turns against you for following Jesus and his word? Tiddly winks? What do you call it when when we Christians endure hardship of all kinds in order to preach, encourage others, take our time to pray, think and reach out to others while the others are at the ball game? What about the missionary's who go and suffer heat, drought, risk of disease, plane crash, robbers, murders, rapist, jungles? Don't you think being mocked and scorned because I speak in tongues by disbelieving and uncaring idiots is not tribulation? Spending time with my soul weeping over people caught up in cults, alcoholism, disbelief and refusal to come to Christ? To be scorned by your own children for your stand on Jesus? To have the fiery darts of Satan and his crowd thrown at you daily? Girl I been in tribulation since the day I got saved. Exactly what do you call tribulation? Lack of a chicken leg? No Kernal Sanders? No prime rib? Nope my dear,when they yell the bridegroom cometh I am going out to meet him, fact is I'll probably be one of the ones he brings back with him considering my age. You and I got a different idea of the rapture, I am talking about what the word say's. He said it, I believe it and it is that simple. See? I am just a simple headed person. Where it said in Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: I just was too simple not to believe him and guess what? he did! Me, I am simple headed, I read and I believe to the best of my understanding. What I don't understand I squirrel away in my noodle. Now if ketchin up in the clouds is a burial, its the weirdest durn burial I ever did see. When the Bible says ketchin up in the clouds you better start lookin around for an oxygen mask. Extry Biblical Dianny? Come on up here girl and I'll give you hug anyways even if you is a little off in the noodle. River | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4068 Registered: 9-2006 |
And Noah? I'll bet that old boy gained thirty pound on that boat ride and if you'll notice it was the Lord who sealed him in. I don't call gettin two of each breed and big bird for a depth sounder, plus your old lady and the kids for a farm start much of a tribulation. River | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4069 Registered: 9-2006 |
Oh, and I forgot to mention a head start in tha boat buildin trade! River | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 625 Registered: 7-2007 |
I'm still a bit puzzled here. Correct me if I'm wrong about what you're saying. You're saying that the rapture isn't secret, that it's accompanied by a shout, the voice of the archangel and a trumpet and every eye will see Jesus come. Right? Then after all the righteous have gone to Heaven with Jesus, then wrath will be poured out on the bad people and they'll all be destroyed? Or are you saying that there will be another chance for the bad people and some more of them will get saved and then Jesus will come again? I'm just confused here. Is there a second coming of Christ and then a third coming?? Anyway, I'm just trying to understand what you meant in your post #4066 when you said that "...a remnant will be saved." Then you went on to say that we "will have already scooted in the rapture." Are you saying that there will be people saved AFTER Jesus comes with a shout, a trumpet and the voice of an archangel? Dianne | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2582 Registered: 10-2004  |
Dianne, As River pointed out, yes, we have to go through tribulation (Jesus promised us that!), but we will not go through God's wrath (the Bible also promises us that!). Why would God pour out His wrath on His own children? That's what the great tribulation is--God pouring out His wrath upon the world. And there are examples in the Bible of God taking people away ("rapture") before He pours out His wrath. Enoch was raptured before the Flood, and Methusaleh was taken away through death in the very year of the Flood. Lot was taken out of Sodom before God destroyed it. Jeremy | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4072 Registered: 9-2006 |
Dianne, You are confused by all these comings and what people have wrote in books and told you. Just read what the Bible says. Yes I think people will be saved, look at Rev. 7:13-17. Right now the Holy Spirit is dealing with hearts and minds through those who preach, teach, through his word, and many other means,even through you, you have a heart for God and he is using that, is you doing it perfectly? No. But he uses our imperfection jest the same. But there will come a day when its done and he will come for his bride. We do suffer tribulation, Jesus said we would and we do. We suffer what I call trials...these include financial upheaval, sickness of body,mockings,torture of soul because of the hardness of heart of friends and even emediate family members and sometimes even death at the hands of others, but not the wrath of God. But there will come a time when it's all done. Jesus says "Look on the fields for they are white and ready to harvest." There is great blessing also, times of refreshing such as the dinner we had, times of great joy and love, times when he pours out his blessing to the max. Lets take your friend whom you said fasted and prayed for you, you think extensive fast and prayer is fun and games? She did that while everybody else is gobbeling down big macks, I fasted for three days and I thought I was gonna croak. I want to pull you away from all that confusion that has been fostered on you. Yes.. there will be time of tears and suffering, but friend it is a poor Christian who cannot see the blessing. Look, you that are going through times of hardship and trial in your life, perhaps financial hardship, sickness, loss, or a thousand different other befallings. It won't be much longer, steal away with Jesus, rejoice in him. There will be times of refreshing of soul, times of blessing. He promises we won't see his wrath, we are hidden away in Christ, sealed away. These hardships seem hard for now, but the morning will come. River |
