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Agapetos
Registered user
Username: Agapetos
Post Number: 1688
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 03, 2009 - 4:32 am: |     |
Jesus said in Matthew 24 that He would collect His elect with a trumpet call, and 1st Thessalonians & 1st Corinthians say that He will take the church at the trumpet call, the "last trumpet". Therefore, the events of Matthew 24 (including "tribulation") occur prior to Christ's coming for His church.
Mind you, the word "the" before "the great tribulation" is inserted into Revelation once (in chapter 7, "those who have come out of [the] great tribulation". It's more correct to just read it as "great tribulation" instead of THE great tribulation... that the people came out of great tribulation.
Blessings in Jesus to you!
Ramone |
Agapetos
Registered user
Username: Agapetos
Post Number: 1689
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 03, 2009 - 5:08 am: | |
Oops, scratch that last comment about the great tribulation... just checked the Greek myself. Ah, let this be a lesson! Before you go quoting Bible teachers here or there or anywhere, check it for yourself! *blush*
I think we tend to overhype and confuse "the great tribulation", however. The examples of God pulling His people out had to do with God's wrath. He does let His people go through tribulation, however. A case can be made for Him not letting us go through wrath, but Jesus tells us He will preserve us through tribulation, not remove us from it. We often confuse "wrath" and "tribulation".
Psalm 91 & 46 are great, great promises for us during the end times.
In Jesus!
Ramone |
Agapetos
Registered user
Username: Agapetos
Post Number: 1690
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 03, 2009 - 7:39 am: | |
P.P.S. The first point was valid, though... about the trumpet in Matthew 24, and the "last trumpet" of 1 Cor.15 and the trumpet of 1 Thess.4 ...
quote:Jesus said in Matthew 24 that He would collect His elect with a trumpet call, and 1st Thessalonians & 1st Corinthians say that He will take the church at the trumpet call, the "last trumpet". Therefore, the events of Matthew 24 (including "tribulation") occur prior to Christ's coming for His church.
(Message edited by agapetos on February 03, 2009) |
Jrt
Registered user
Username: Jrt
Post Number: 56
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 03, 2009 - 9:16 am: | |
Dianne,
What I'm learning (just out of SDAism) is that there are a few interpretations as to "end time scenerios". The one River has shared and some others. Here is a link to a diagram http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Millennial_views.svg
(You may have to paste it into your browser . . .) Also, you can look up eschatology using google and find in wikepedia (spelling) information.
Okay, now that I've said that - it all must be tested with scripture . . . River has given some scripture that supports the rapture and "dispensational premillennism" . . . I am just now coming to terms with it all and am leaning towards what River has shared . . . I'm still studying . . .
In the church that I'm attending the senior pastor holds one view (like Rivers) and the associate a different view (more on the lines of SDAism - everyone goes through the end time tribulation of plagues, etc. - and then Jesus comes) . . . so as I understand it - many interpretations . . .(sidelight - I'm getting used to hearing - "We don't fully know - based on scripture" - while in SDA it is "WE know and you must believe it this way"). I liked the way the senior pastor shared, "We are all brothers and sisters in Christ and it is not perfectly clear in scripture what those scenerios will really be like - I think this way and can give you scripture - my associate thinks differently - and he can give you scripture too" . . .
So - forgive me River if I don't say this exactly as you have layed it out . . . Diane - according to scripture and how River has shared . . . there is a rapture and those believing in Jesus are taken from this world . . . those left go through the plagues of Revelation (during this time others will come to know Jesus) . . . right before Jesus comes a "3rd time" the Jews will come to faith . . . Jesus comes that "3rd" time and establishes his kingdom on earth . . . then the millenium . . . Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong River . . .
Quite different than going to heaven where the millinium takes place and is taught in SDAism . . .
My two little cents worth . . . I'm still reading to fully understand it all, Diane . . . kinda hard for my SDA indoctrinated brain to wrap around it fully yet . . . 
Blessings as you seek Him,
JRT |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 4073
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 03, 2009 - 3:51 pm: | |
Yup, Jrt, ats pretty much it. I don't reckon there is any pressure on us to understand all this stuff, nor agree on our opinions about it.
Least I have never felt impressed by the Holy Spirit about it.
I guess people have just always wanted to know the future and what lays in it for them.
But I can boil it out to two words for them, Heaven or Hell, what happens in between time is just the route you take to get there.
I'm kind of like a chicken, I wake up in a new world every morning anyhow.
The only way I can keep steady for long is to take his word for it that he would never leave me nor forsake me and I guess that's mostly what counts with me.
I've laid too many stiffs on a slab to worry about tomorrow much.
I swear Adventist worry more than anybody I ever seed, they set around and worry about just about any subject. And they look like zombies in church.
River |
Honestwitness
Registered user
Username: Honestwitness
Post Number: 770
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 03, 2009 - 4:01 pm: | |
River, please help me understand why you say there will be dead bodies lying all around, when Jesus comes. Whose dead bodies are they? The righteous or the wicked?
I'm so confused by all this, even AFTER I read the Bible and the Bible only. But I'm open to understanding your explanation.
Honestwitness |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 4074
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 03, 2009 - 4:48 pm: | |
Oh well...now we get into the guessing game on that.
This old flesh body must die, it can't inherit eternal life.
Now take the scenario that Jesus does what it says in Thes 4:13-4:17.
Now since this body has to die because of sin in it,lets say your cookin the hubby a birthday cake and along comes the Lord and catches you up instantly in the blink of an eye to meet him.
Now does he take the flesh that he done said has to die? Do we leave the old body behind and put on glorified bodies? Or does he instantly change this physical flesh to glorified bodies and we just disappear into thin air as far as the one that left is concerned and thats what he see's, absolutely nothing. Lets say you and hubby are talking while you bake the cake, do we disappear or does this old tired body fall to the floor you done abandoned it and the birthday cake.
I didn't say there would be, I said I guess there would be. Now we have to consider that Jesus kept his, but he had no sin in it.
But God told Adam that he would surely die and we been dying ever since.
So most the bodies would be the saved accept the sinner that maybe caught the heart attack express at the same time, if in fact this body MUST die.
Say "the pickle picked a pack a peppers" three times real fast. That will help you figure it out.
River
P.S. Oh, and if you come up with the answer, let me know will ya? |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 4075
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 03, 2009 - 4:53 pm: | |
I think I have suffered enough already so I have opted out of the trib, yall go on ahead in my place, I got an appointment with Daisy_girl just tother side of the pearly gate to discuss that bunny head.
She don't wanna go along on the trib neither, so we'll both be waitin fer you all to get done with it.
River |
Benevento
Registered user
Username: Benevento
Post Number: 268
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 03, 2009 - 6:48 pm: | |
I need some help please---I'm looking for the text where Jesus
says he did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it--my concordance is such small print and it is hard for me to read
red print so I seem to be stuck. Thanks Peggy |
Benevento
Registered user
Username: Benevento
Post Number: 269
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 03, 2009 - 6:51 pm: | |
I meant to start a new thread, the above message doesn't fit here There used to be a new thread here but now I don't see it, sorry about that. Peggy |
Mommyk
Registered user
Username: Mommyk
Post Number: 239
Registered: 4-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 03, 2009 - 7:00 pm: | |
Hi Peggy. Matthew 5:17 is the text you're looking for. Pastor Mark Martin gives a few excellent sermons on this verse. Listen to Messages on the Law here:
http://exadventist.com/Home/Audio/tabid/57/Default.aspx
~Kristen |
Asurprise
Registered user
Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 626
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 03, 2009 - 7:21 pm: | |
Peggy, it's found in Matthew 5:17,18. It's weird how SDAs love to miss-use those verses to say that the Ten Commandments are still in force. If they want to use these verses, they need to be consistent and keep ALL the Law and the Prophets. There's 613 of them! After all, Jesus said that not jot or one tittle would pass from the Law or the Prophets until ALL is fulfilled.
Instead, Adventists split the Law and the Prophets up and say that some was fulfilled and some are still in force. Jesus fulfilled it ALL. Instead of reading the Bible though, Adventists just go by Ellen White to see what commands are for today. Some of them are repeated in the new covenant (New Testament). They need to read it and see which ones. (Also Adventists don't understand that we're really saved by grace and that the Holy Spirit writes His laws on our hearts and that we're not kept saved by the keeping of them.)
I'm a little frustrated with family members who just WON'T get it! But then, I was there too, back when I was an Adventist. I believed that Ellen White was a real true prophet (through a few "proof" texts taken out of context) and I believed that she agreed with the Bible. If something in the Bible didn't make sense, I just went with Ellen White's interpretation.
Dianne |
Honestwitness
Registered user
Username: Honestwitness
Post Number: 771
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 03, 2009 - 7:37 pm: | |
Nice dancin', River! <grin>
I have never stopped to study the topic of whether there will be dead bodies lying around right after Jesus comes. However, I just had a hazy assumption that there would be no dead bodies. So, when I read your comments, it made me wonder how you came up with that idea and also where my hazy assumption came from.
I'm finding more and more of these hazy assumptions lurking inside me. It's amazing how some of them got in there. I've come to realize how much of what I believe is based on religious paintings, Christmas carols, and even cartoons I watched as a kid.
For example, is there anything in the Bible about angels having wings or even angels singing. If you look closely at the story of when the angels appeared to the shepherds to announce Jesus' birth, it doesn't say anything about angels singing. It says they praised God, but it says nothing about singing.
I'm noticing more and more how many assumptions I have about what the Bible says and how often my assumptions turn out to be wrong when I read what it actually says.
Honestwitness |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 4077
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 04, 2009 - 4:15 pm: | |
Honestwitness,
Perhaps the idea that angels have wings comes from scripture such as the following: Exodus 25:20 And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be.
However I think this symbolizes Jesus covering or some such, not that angels have wings, I can't remember reading any evidence that angels have wings in any scripture where there was a case of angels appearing to anyone on earth.
I do know what you mean about hazy assumptions though so you don't have a corner on that.Been there, done that.
River |
Helovesme2
Registered user
Username: Helovesme2
Post Number: 1796
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 04, 2009 - 6:10 pm: | |
There is that verse that describes the cherubim as having six wings - two to cover their faces with, two to cover their feet with, and two to fly with. |
Philharris
Registered user
Username: Philharris
Post Number: 1363
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 04, 2009 - 6:36 pm: | |
Ah, so now the questions is: Are cherubim simply special angels? After all, the meaning of angel is; 'messanger'. The cherubim sound more like guards.
Phil |
Asurprise
Registered user
Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 627
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 04, 2009 - 6:40 pm: | |
Notice Isaiah 6:2 "Above it stood seraphim; each one had six wings: with two he covered his face, with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew."
Perhaps these verses that talk about what happens to our bodies when Jesus comes, will be helpful.
1st Cor. 15:51,52 "Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed - in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye..."
2nd Cor. 5:4 "For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life." |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 4081
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, February 05, 2009 - 12:02 am: | |
And that mu dear, brings into question, will our flesh bods drop uselessly too the ground or will we just disappear? Either way it will be a big surprise to the unsainted and so much for secrecy.
I am afraid the cat will be out of the bag. "Say Joe I remember something a preacher said the one Sunday I attended church about a catchin away er somthing like that, you remember where yer crazy old religious nut of a ex-wife kept that Bible a hurn?"
"Ah, yer nuts Jack, drink yer beer! Ya know I don't believe in that stuff, that Bible is just fulla old wives tales, who you kiddin? Animals Two by two and all that crap."
River |
Raven
Registered user
Username: Raven
Post Number: 976
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, February 05, 2009 - 8:39 pm: | |
I don't think I would see Isaish 6:2 is related in any way to what happens to our bodies when Jesus comes. After all, Jesus was resurrected in His body, even had the scars. There was no old, different body left behind and the "changed" resurrected one wasn't drastically different. I think if He'd been resurrected with wings some Bible writer would have mentioned that. I figured the "change" meant an incorruptible body. |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 4083
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Friday, February 06, 2009 - 3:35 am: | |
Well, that is what the Bible says, we must put on incorruption.
I doubt very much if Isiah 6:2 has anything to do with that either.
However Jesus was sinless and we will see the same scars they saw when we see him.
But the fact remains that he had no sin, if the body is changed from corruptible to incorruptible instead of dieing it seem to me that creates problems with other scripture.
In Tim Lahayes left behind series he plays the characters as having disappeared.
I got no problem with disappearing myself if I make it until that time (which I doubt) the problem I have with the idea is sin in the body.
Well...my logic can't handle the question. It is not real important that I know the answer, in fact it is on the very bottom rung of my to do study list.
River |
Helovesme2
Registered user
Username: Helovesme2
Post Number: 1797
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Friday, February 06, 2009 - 7:54 am: | |
I knew I should have looked that verse up. Cherubim indeed! It plainly says seraphim, as Asurprise so kindly quoted. |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 9368
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 06, 2009 - 11:14 pm: | |
Mary, I love your humor!
Colleen |
Wearingpurple
Registered user
Username: Wearingpurple
Post Number: 4
Registered: 1-2009
| | Posted on Monday, February 09, 2009 - 7:35 pm: | |
Asurprise, hi.
You nicely referred to 1 Cor 15, to the mystery Paul tells us about. So, I looked up that familiar text and got caught up in the preceding verses. Please allow me to expound a consideration, from v. 35 thru 49.
They show us that our bodies are sown incorruption but raised in incorruption; sown in dishonor, yet raised in glory; sown as natural bodies yet raised as spiritual bodies. I love these verses. Our bodies are now natural (At times, mine feels unnatural.) but wil be spiritual. My creative imagination tells me that my body will become different only in its lack of weakness, or frailty. I've always felt (or wanted to believe) that I will become gorgeous at that precious time. However, perhaps, beauty will, in truth, be in the eye of beholders.
What thinkest thou?
Cathy |
Asurprise
Registered user
Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 634
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Monday, February 09, 2009 - 8:34 pm: | |
Hi Wearingpurple;
Two good examples are Enoch and Elijah. They had natural bodies too, yet the Bible doesn't say anything about their bodies dropping dead when they were translated to Heaven.
1st Corinthians 15:42 is talking about the resurrection of the dead when it says the body is sown in corruption and raised in incorruption.
It does say that believers who are alive when Jesus comes "shall all be changed" in 1st Corinthians 15:51. If our old bodies dropped dead, wouldn't Paul have said so?
(It's not a salvation issue what a person believes about this anyway.)
Dianne |
