| Author | Message | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 369 Registered: 2-2008 |
Called my mom last night and she started in on the whole discussion of Adventism along with Ellen. She did the whole thing that if the prophets in the Bible make mistakes... then why am I so hard on Ellen for making mistakes. That was only the tip of the iceberg. I want to ask about 2 things she brought up. First, she wanted to talk about Rev. 12... this must be something being discussed in their quarterly. We started talking about v.5-8: (NASB) Rev 12:5 And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne. Rev 12:6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness where she *had a place prepared by God, so that there she would be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days. Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war, Rev 12:8 and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven. She told me that these verses were not written in chronological order... that there were many things written in Revelation that were not written in chronological order. But out of this chapter, everything is written in order except for these 3 verses. Is this Adventist theology? Secondly, which was the most bizarre thing I've heard is this: She said that one of the cherubims that overlooked the ark of the covenant actually represented Satan. WHAT?!?! Then she said it actually represented Lucifer. I asked her if this was in the Bible or is this something she learned from Ellen. She fumbled awhile and then said it was something she made up. Has anyone heard of this? This is the craziest thing I've heard. I asked her why would God represent Satan in the Most Holy Place? She dropped that and went off a different path after that. sigh... ~vivian | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 153 Registered: 8-2008 |
EGW said Satan offered to help Jesus with the atonement for sin. EGW says Satan is the scapegoat, even though Jesus bore our sin. EGW said the prayers of those who reject SDAism go to Satan in the Holy Place in heaven, and are answered by him. To paraphrase from a poster on CARM.org, this makes Satan the fourth person of the SDA Trinity. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9337 Registered: 12-2003  |
Yes, Vivian, Ellen says that passage in Revelation is about when Satan sinned before Adam and Eve were created and was cast out of heaven. In context, it seems to represent something still in the future. I've never heard that exact take on Lucifer being a cherubim overlooking the ark, but Ellen DID say that those that refused to accept the 1844 message of the IJ and the sanctuary being cleansed will pray in vain because in 1844 Jesus left the Holy Place and went into the Most Holy Place. Satan, then, set himself up in the Holy Place and answers the prayers of those who refused to "believe" the 1844 message. It is the most hideous, blasphemous teaching imaginable. But it explains why so many people who leave Adventism fear they are being deceived when they pray to know the truth and become convicted of the true gospel. Many of them don't even know Ellen wrote this nonsense, but it is part of the warp and woof of Adventism that Satan will deceive people even when they pray if they leave the Adventist message. It's hard for someone who's been SDA to actually believe the Bible means what it says because they've been either directly or subliminally taught that anything else is a satanic deception, and Satan will actually answer the prayers of those who abandon Adventism. Colleen | ||
| 8thday Registered user Username: 8thday Post Number: 646 Registered: 11-2007  |
Is there anyone out there (that's not a cult) that interprets the war in heaven as being at the cross (or at some point before) - when the "accuser" is cast down - because he has been defeated? That seems logical to me, - having a "short" time - 2000 years or so isn't very long in the scheme of things, considering the lifespan of men used to be nearly half that length. Jesus said, Luk 10:17 The seventy-two returned with joy, saying, "Lord, even the demons are subject to us in your name!" Luk 10:18 And he said to them, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. Was that just an idiom? It seems Satan's power was already broken at this point, during the ministry of Jesus (His reading of Is. 61 - rolling back the curse) Wondering and thinking out loud. Don't want to sidetrack this Vivian! Sorry! Your question brought up other questions I have had. | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 155 Registered: 8-2008 |
I believe that this part in Revelation 12 is referring to what happened after the cross. Undeniably, the child is Jesus (compare Rev. 12:5 to Rev. 19:15). Pre-cross, Satan had access to the throne room of God. We see this in the book of Job. He could accuse us before God as he did with Job. This was because man sinned, thus surrendering to the power of Satan. Man was given authority over the earth at creation. By sinning and following Satan, man became a slave to the Devil, and the Devil became de facto ruler of this earth. By His perfect life, death, and resurrection, Jesus returned authority over this rebellious planet to God the Father. This is why Jesus said shortly before His death, "Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out" (John 12:31-32). The Kingdom of God was inaugurated in Jesus's first advent. It will be fully completed in His second. That's my take on it. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4060 Registered: 9-2006  |
I don't know as anything will break this hold on them besides prayer. I don't mean that we should not talk to them either, we should do that where we can, but only when mixed with prayer for them. This thing seems to have a strong spiritual hold and I am convinced that is the case. Not only a matter of raising, but spiritual deception. It might be a good idea to read the faith chapter Vivian as I know you are concerned for her. Me, I view them as unsaved, they may be saved, but when I pray for their salvation the Holy Spirit sure doesn't confirm that they are. If they are I sure wish he would get to confirming, he confirms to me that your saved Viv, why not them if they are? Now the other answer might be that I can't hear the Holy Spirit and don't know how to listen, but I sure thought that it has been him speaking and communing for 30 some odd. River | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 657 Registered: 7-2000 |
I think your mom got a couple of different things tangled up. Lucifer was a covering cherub, an archangel. The covering angels over the old Ark of the Covenant was a symbolic representation of these angels. So, if you aren't careful, you could say that one of these represented Satan----but it would be before he fell. | ||
| 8thday Registered user Username: 8thday Post Number: 649 Registered: 11-2007 |
And... when he fell does that mean there is only one now, or did God find someone to replace him? Just seems crazy that it would still represent lucifer when the tabernacle was built. - Don't know how anyone could even say that! Thanks for your input Bskillet. That really is the only thing that makes sense to me, although I know some people see it as still being in the future. I don't even know what eschatological box it all fits into - I'm not big on boxes. They all seem to have a hole in them somewhere!! ha. I'll just keep studying. Sondra | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 1357 Registered: 5-2007  |
Just to complicate this topic a little I would like to pose Where in Scripture, do we learn that the "cherub" over the arc of the covenant were "angels"? Also, what Scripture informs us that angels have wings or why do we tend to think of angels as having any other physical attributes? Phil | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 159 Registered: 8-2008 |
Sondra, forgot to mention: On the Luke 10:17,18, it really depends on how you group the words together. It doesn't make sense that the disciples going out on a trial run (this was a trial run IMHO for them spreading the word after Pentecost) would cause Satan to fall from heaven. So we could read it one of two ways. Either "I saw [Satan fall like lightning] [from heaven]." I.E., Jesus saw Satan fall from heaven like lightning. or "I saw [Satan fall] [like lightning from heaven]." Jesus saw Satan fall in the same way lightning falls from heaven. I think the second makes more sense. The grammatical form makes more sense, because if He meant, "I saw Satan fall from heaven like lightning," it would be more likely He would have said it that exact way. The context was that the disciples had cast out demons and really did some awesome stuff. So where then did Satan's grip lose its hold? Heaven? No, Satan's grip was lost over the people who had their demons cast out. | ||
| 8thday Registered user Username: 8thday Post Number: 652 Registered: 11-2007 |
Yes Bskillet, I was wondering if that one verse wasn't referring to just Satan being defeated by the authority of Christ on earth, and through those he sent out - so didn't know if that could be related the Rev. verse. Good point. I don't have much time to really dissect verses like I used to before I had 2 more kids. lol. Thanks for your input there. Phil, very good questions! Maybe because angels "fly" we assume they must have wings. ha. I hope someone has an answer. I also assume (maybe incorreclty) that Ezekiel where it refers to satan as being a "covering cherub" is where they get this in the first place - It doesn't say what he covers - just wondering if they are reading more into it than it was meant to say. The Bible overall is very vague about heaven and angels, but when you are an sda and think you have a prophet that has seen it all, it tends to all meld together with your Biblical truth until people don't know one from the other. I'm still sorting it out. Sometimes I am surprised by even more erroneous info stored in my brain that isn't in scripture. Sondra | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 371 Registered: 2-2008 |
I've come to realize that it is very hard for my mom to read the Bible and just be able to understand it for what it says. I brought up to her the fact that if this war had happened before creation, how did Satan end up in heaven talking to God about Job? She said that Satan had lost his position but he still had access to heaven. How far do they have to go to make the Bible fit their theology? ~vivian | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 6415 Registered: 3-2004  |
It appears as long as EGW said it, it is true! Diana L |
