| Author | Message | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 6377 Registered: 3-2004  |
I had heard this name when I first came on FAF and then posted on Revival Sermons. I have never heard the man speak. Today I went to the "Gently Broken" website and listened to the tape of his talk at Loma Linda U church. Have any of you heard it? He says God told him what to say to the SDA church. He also says God has give the same message to others in various conferences. He is the only one who has spoken out. His message is very condemning of the adventist church. What do the rest of you think? Diana L | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 120 Registered: 8-2008 |
I am always concerned when I read someone claiming "God told me" in the sence of a prophetic word. That said, it is possibly because of my difficulties with a certain mean old harpie who liked to say, "I was shown." On the other hand, it would be wonderful if God has told leaders in SDA conferences to stop stifling the truth. We can always hope that SDAs will throw out Ellenism the same way the WWCOG through out Armstrongism. I am not that optimistic, however. I just got out of SDAism a few months ago, and it seems to me that it is taking a very conservative turn, with the historic SDAs becoming increasingly vocal and increasingly harsh towards more moderate SDAs. The trend of SDAism seems to be towards Arianism, Ellenism, and a complete repudiation of the concept of grace. More moderate SDAs who seem to want to believe in grace are just slowly finding the true gospel and walking quietly out the back door. EDIT: He also appears to favor dispensationalism, which I do not believe to be Biblical in the slightest. (Message edited by bskillet on January 24, 2009) | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 1669 Registered: 10-2002  |
Herschel's message was a catalyst that sent Cherry & others looking through SDA teachings at Celebration Center. The important part that had impacted her was the zeroing in on the three SDA teachings, which developed into studies and later into classes at CC which were miraculously tolerated for quite some time. Some particulars of Hughes' message strike me as being more flesh than Spirit. I tend to believe that God did stir him about some things in Adventism, but that it is not a 100% flesh-free prophetic word, so to speak. The dispensational part is very telling in this respect, and reflects the time that he spent at Calvary Chapels, from what I understand. Dispensationalism is a 200-year-old eschatologically-focused theology rooted in un-contextual interpretations of the book of Daniel and the preference of and superimposition of Romans 11 over the rest of the New Testament. Something Bruce Metzger said about the apocryphal book "The Wisdom of Solomon" rings true, I believe, for Hughes' message -- that he did have something inspired to say, but he kept going after the inspiration was gone. To the extent that Hughes' message was a catalyst in getting people at CC to study and come into the freedom of Jesus's rest, the divine purpose God had for the message was served completely. To the extent that the message was completely trustworthy and prophetic start to finish, A to Z, well, um,... NO. But this is how prophecy works after the cross. God speaks primarily to your spirit through His Spirit. Prophetic messages are secondary witnesses, confirmation, and sometimes opening new direction. If God is saying something to you through someone, it will "resonate" in you. The first parts of Hughes' message resonated in the spirits of Cherry and others, and hence, the fruit God had intended came forth. But the last parts apparently did not, and so fruit has not come out of them. What this means is that there's a process of filtering, or what the New Testament calls "discernment." You take things to God and listen to Him. It's not a blanket trust in everything someone prophetically utters, nor is it a blanket writing off of prophetic utterance itself. Both extremes immaturely cut out God's Spirit and impose protective walls that don't actually protect (because they leave you open to spirits of fear and leaning on intellectualism). Instead, you simply take things to Him. He is your safety, He is your rest, and He can be trusted to discern things for you each time, one at a time. An interesting read is one of the chapters in Cherry's IJ study here: http://sogentlybroken.blogspot.com/2008/09/great-debate.html God has been sending prophetic messages to the SDA church (not always labeled "prophetic message", mind you) roughly every 15 years since it was founded. The messengers and even the messages themselves were not 100% correct on everything. Sometimes they were simply "on the trail" to something that was right. But in these things God did send enough of "a witness" to people in power in the SDA church, and they rejected the witness each time. Bless you in Jesus! Ramone | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4024 Registered: 9-2006  |
Prophecy as it exist today is never 100% flesh free. Just because someone like Ellen White did what she did does not nullify the gift of prophecy through his true servants by his Holy Spirit. Nor will it stop God from speaking to his church today. There is not a one of us that is flesh free, yet should I declare then that not a one of you are servants of God? Be careful of that Bskillet lest what Ellen did keep you from harking to Gods Spirit. As Ramone said God will speak to your Spirit confirmation. God is perfectly capable of keeping what has been entrusted to him. I would have no doubt that God has spoken to Adventist through the gifts of the Holy Spirit warnings and correction. You can't throw a blanket on everyone in the Adventist church and say just because they might be labeled Adventist, that there are no servants of God in the Adventist church. God has people in the state prisons, prisoner's them selves among the prisoners who are speaking to the prisoner. There was the case of the prophet of old who thought he was completely alone so he went and sat in a cave or somewhere, but God showed him he had other people that had not bowed the knee to Bal. Quote: But this is how prophecy works after the cross. God speaks primarily to your spirit through His Spirit. Prophetic messages are secondary witnesses, confirmation, and sometimes opening new direction. If God is saying something to you through someone, it will "resonate" in you. (end quote) Good words. The main thing is not to let Ellen White keep robbing you of the blessing of hearing God's voice, because if you do then who still controls certain aspects of your life? So true Ramone and well spoken accept maybe the part about dispensation's, but then can I expect you to be 100% flesh free?  River | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 337 Registered: 2-2003  |
Good assessment Ramone, Adrian | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 125 Registered: 8-2008 |
Did anyone come 15 yrs. after Glacier View? On dispensationalism, an interesting read: 95 Theses Against Dispensationalism Written from the perspective of Covenant Theology, so you'll see some differences from the (more correct IMHO) New Covenant Theology. (Message edited by bskillet on January 25, 2009) (Message edited by bskillet on January 25, 2009) | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 1671 Registered: 10-2002 |
15 years after Glacier View? Wasn't that about when Ratzlaff's "Sabbath in Crisis" came out? (Now re-titled "Sabbath in Christ") Oh Lord! | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 1672 Registered: 10-2002 |
P.S. Haha, River, you're funny. But I dare you to investigate what I've said about dispensationalism. No joke. Good comments above... don't let EGW rob you through fearing the Holy Spirit! | ||
| Surfy Registered user Username: Surfy Post Number: 478 Registered: 11-2007 |
I am actually acquainted with Herschel and his wife. I did a job for them. If anyone would like a CD of his talk at Celebration Center, I could send you one as he gave me a stack of them to hand out. I also have it on MP3 for download. When I first heard it, I thought he was crazy. Then I started studying the sabbath on my own...just to prove him wrong. After about 6 months of studying (just me and my Bible) I discovered what the Sabbath means to new testament believers. I have since done more work for them and have been able to spend a little time getting to know them. Since this is a public forum, I can't go into detail but both he and his wife really have a heart for the Lord. Surfy | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4028 Registered: 9-2006 |
Ramone, I am not a dis-spin-sas-on-a list, I intended to be but found I couldn't spell it and gave up. I am a replacemetist, I am trying mostly to get people to replace hard hearts with a heart for Jesus. I have the inclination, provocation, justification, saturation and mortification to look into that subject; unfortunately I just don’t have the time. River | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 127 Registered: 8-2008 |
I agree with the dispensationalists that there will be a time when we see a remnant of Jews accept Christianity. I believe this is what Paul means in Rom. 11, but I could be wrong. What I don't agree with them on is the rapture, the literalistic method of prophetic interpretation, and the idea that ethnic Israel is God's ultimate purpose vis-a-vis humanity. In Eph. 1 Paul says God's ultimate purpose, from before the foundation of the world, was to create the church so He could fellowship with them, so His Son could have a bride. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2579 Registered: 10-2004  |
River, Have you seen Hughes' "message" that is supposedly a word-for-word "quotation" of God? Here is the text version of it: http://sogentlybroken.blogspot.com/2008/08/appendix-1-herschel-hughes-message.html Tell me what you think of it after reading it. Is he really "quoting" God? And some of you are saying that part of it can be true and part of it false. Well, if part of it is from God, and he is lying about the other part being God's words, then how on earth are we supposed to believe that any of it is from God? If prophecy can contain error, then how do you know that Ellen White is a false prophet? And remember, he is claiming to actually QUOTE God, and that these are God's own words! Jeremy | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1588 Registered: 4-2000  |
Although I don't subscribe to dispensationalism for a variety of reasons, it is clear, however, that the context for Romans 11:25-26 refers to literal or ethnic Israel. The comparison that Paul makes in these passages, between ethnic Jews and Gentiles, is too obvious to miss. Paul refers to the salvation of the elect Jews as a "mystery." This mystery has two parts; specifically, Israel has experienced a partial spiritual hardening and that hardening will last only for a divinely-sanctioned period of time. The Apostle Paul concludes in verse 33: "Oh, the depth of the riches both of wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!" God has many wonderful surprises in store for His people. Getting the gospel right should be our top priority. I am increasingly persuaded that we are all wrong about our eschatological views. Consequently, our eschatology should not be highly dogmatic nor be allowed to become divisive. For example, in my church there are people who hold a variety of eschatological views--even among the Sunday School teachers. This fact does not create a problem for us as a church family. Our sovereign God wisely withholds many details of future events. The Potter knows what the clay can handle. Being spared of knowing about a detailed tomorrow gives us a better quality of life today. Today is often crucified between two thieves--yesterday and tomorrow. Dennis Fischer | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4032 Registered: 9-2006 |
Ok Jeremy, I went to the website and listened to the guy although he about bored me to tears. You know I don’t beat around the bush too much. What do you want me to say? That any man is 100% Holy Spirit? That is almost laughable. Look Jeremy, I have seen many people used in the gift of prophecy many times over, almost without exception there has been a message in tongues preceding those messages, but not always. Does this sound like anything I ever heard? No. He just sounds to me like another dead Adventist. Are all messages to the church body through people executed perfectly? No. We are vessels of clay Am I going to jump on here and condemn the guy as false? No. Not my place since he was speaking to a group of people I don’t even know. All I can say is it doesn’t sound like anything that I ever heard. Four months to get a massage? Gripped a bald head to get a message or send one? Well sounds a little strange to me, but not impossible. Like I said, it’s nothing I am familiar with, neither do I have any stake in putting God in some kind of idealistic box just so I can jump on here and talk about it. I leave his message, whatever the content for whoever that message was for, if it was a message to those who heard it. It is their responsibility to judge, not mine. They have their Bibles, let them see to it. Here is what my Bible tells me Corinthians I 14:29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. We are to judge whether or not the truth has been spoken at the time the prophecy is brought forth. It also says Corinthians I 14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. It also says Corinthians I 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. So did the declared prophecy produce the fruit of warring and confusion in that church? I don’t know I wasn’t there. Heck, most all the Adventist I know war among themselves all the time anyhow so I have to question if the Holy Spirit is even in it at all. You said Well, if part of it is from God, and he is lying about the other part being God's words, then how on earth are we supposed to believe that any of it is from God? If prophecy can contain error, then how do you know that Ellen White is a false prophet? Well… as I said it is flesh that brings forth a prophecy, every word might not be exactly correct as God intended, nor understood as God intended. OK, so how do we know that Ellen White was a false prophet? The same way you judge that man or any other person who prophecy’s, by the word of God, did I need to say that? The trouble is way back there when Ellen was spouting all her crap those around her didn’t bother, the former Adventist didn’t bother and that’s why they were Adventist. People get into trouble with this stuff, not because there is anything wrong with the gifts of God, or that God is at fault for giving them, but because they are too dang lazy to look into the word of God and listen to the Holy Spirit themselves. They go running clear across the country to listen to some preacher in some hot spot to “Get a word from God.” Good grief folks, what’s wrong with that picture? Don’t they got a Bible and knees to get on of their own? Come on. Man I wouldn’t fly across the Columbia river to hear somebody prophecy! It ain’t no feather in your hat to have a prophecy come forth through flesh or no flesh, all that means is that you haven’t been studying yer Bible and praying as you ought. Man, anybody goes to prophesying around me I go to digging into my Bible like a maniac! I have been used in the gift of prophecy before to a man over the telephone, but it wasn’t no feather in that guys hat since he had just received a life sentence for his wrong approach to the law. It wasn’t no feather in my hat that God used me, I was just the one willing to be used. God could have used Skeeter Davis for all I cared, but I was the one at the time so I drew the dime. If the man would have been doing as he ought, that wouldn’t have been necessary. The man was saved, but it wasn’t because of me, it was because the Holy Spirit drew him. Did I do it just right? Probably not, but I did the best I could. End of story River | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 1674 Registered: 10-2002 |
Good response, River. Coming out from Adventism it is very easy to categorize prophetic utterances as either "of God" or "of the devil", as either "true" or "false". What such hasty rush to judgment ignores is the existence of the flesh. This is one reason we don't see more spiritual gifts active in the church today. There is a fear that unless we get something 100% accurate, dead-on, word-for-word-from-God, that it means He isn't speaking. So when we hear from God, instead of seeking Him futher to clarify what we've heard, we assume we haven't heard from God, and that He doesn't speak that way today. Above all in that case the absolute last thing we would want to do is share with other people in the church, because they would immediately subject us to all sorts of tests, with condemnation following close-behind. We are babes in the Holy Spirit, and need help, practice, experience and simply growth as we grow and learn to hear the Holy Spirit clearer. The sad thing is that in the church we usually do not give grace because we are usually not full of grace -- we may be full of doctrines and "truth", even the "doctrines of grace", but that's not the same thing as being full of grace. I don't know Hughes well enough, but from what I know, I believe he got a good and real thing from God, but as I said earlier, I believe he carried it too far and attributed to God part that was flesh -- something that "made sense" to him as being from God, but was not. That he said something in there which was not from God does not invalidate parts that were from God. That he didn't have enough discernment to know the difference is human. It's not a good thing, but again, God was more than able to bring abundant fruit out of the part that was real. To suggest the "all or nothing" test for prophets reflects a misunderstanding of how prophecy in the New Covenant works, and instead looks at modern prophecy as though it were intended to be new "scripture", when it is not. Additionally, such a view also ignores Biblical examples that do not fit the mold: - Nathan the prophet told King David to go ahead and carry out his plans, and then later God told Nathan to tell David not to carry out his plans to build the temple. Did God condemn Nathan for speaking wrongly? - Balaam prophesied four times with great accuracy, 100% accuracy. One of his prophecies predicted the coming of the King in Israel. God spoke through Balaam, no doubt. Yet Balaam was judged by God as lawless, and was killed by the army of Israel. Ever-after in scripture Balaam is held up in infamy. Was 100% word-for-word accuracy a good measure of Balaam? - King Saul prophesied twice, once when his heart was for God, and once when his heart was set against God. - According to John, the high priest Caiaphas "prophesied" about Jesus. - Philip had seven virgin daughters who prophesied, yet their words are not recorded. Apparently what God said through them was not meant for all of us, but was meant for those who heard it. - Many Gentiles when baptized with the Spirit spoke in tongues and prophesied. Again, their words were not scripturalized. - Agabus and others urged Paul "through the Spirit" to not go onto Jerusalem, but he did, "compelled by the Lord". - A prophet in Israel flat-out lied to a prophet from Judah to trick him into eating with him. The prophet from Judah died as a result of believing the prophet from Israel. There is a lot to learn from each of these examples, but what I want to highlight here is that we need to be wise and ask for discernment, not rush to judgment or use cheap tests like "all or nothing". Paul told us to "test all things, hold fast to that which is good." This rule should be especially followed when someone who knows the gospel and whose heart is given to Jesus believes they have a word from the Lord. It should be tested, and if there is something good in it that resonates in our spirits, by all means we shouldn't despise it. If there is something not worth holding onto, we should let it go. If this comes from a brother who knows and preaches the gospel and loves the Lord, we must be especially careful not to rush to judgment against the brother. The flesh is very real, and we will do great harm if we rush to claiming something is either God or Satan simply because one part is either true or incorrect. We are all brothers and sisters, and if we are honest with ourselves, we will realize that we don't always get everything 100% correct ourselves. We demand a lot of grace for our mistakes but then come down hard on our brothers and sisters if they get 2% wrong! It is no wonder that there is such a FEAR of the Holy Spirit and spiritual gifts in churches today! We do not have the grace to allow one another to make mistakes as we stumble along in our growth. A child does not learn to walk without stumbling and falling. Is learning to walk in the Spirit different? Do we never stumble? We do, of course, but we don't allow others to! We may make mistakes, but they must be perfect?? No. But we will certainly continue to "hear" very little from the Spirit ourselves and in our churches if we continue to instill fear in people of walking & growing in the gifts of God. Paul urged Timothy to "fan into flame" the gift God had given him. Today we do the opposite, scrutinizing and chastising one another the minute an error is made (instead of holding onto that which is good and gently, lovingly correcting the part that was off). We try to blow out the flame of God's gifts. God still speaks today, but He doesn't speak for the sake of us scripturalizing words. His point is to testify to His Son, draw us to Him, and provide guidance as He wills in our lives. The prophet is not the goal, nor is the specific word. Relationship with Him is the goal. As a final note, I would appreciate it if objectors to what I've written here would not compare it with Ellen White. I believe the difference between the people we're talking about and situtations is very clear -- one person is grounded in the gospel, and Ellen White was not. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4035 Registered: 9-2006 |
Ramone I believe that is the best treatise I have heard on the gifts of the Spirit in a long time. If I had you here I would give you a big old hug! In fact I think it time for a group hug. ((((((group hug))))))))) River | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 137 Registered: 8-2008 |
Thanks, now I have Animal's fur all over my shirt. Anyone have a lint brush? | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4036 Registered: 9-2006 |
You have to wait till Lint to use a lint brush. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9322 Registered: 12-2003  |
 Thanks, River! Colleen | ||
| Animal Registered user Username: Animal Post Number: 403 Registered: 7-2008  |
I resemble that remark !!!! ((( HUGGS ))) all around | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 1676 Registered: 10-2002 |
(((return HUG))) God, be glorified!!! | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 338 Registered: 2-2003 |
Ramone, Your explanation on the gifts was very good in my view. It can be a long process learning to hear the Holy Spirit, but it is very much worth while. God bless, Adrian | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 738 Registered: 1-2003  |
Ramone, thanks for your remarks regarding the prophetic gifting that God bestows on many. I was there that night at Celebration and was deeply moved by some of the things that were said. Other things I took under "advisement" and my discernment did not accept them at the time. It was a very powerful evening for many and I was amazed at how out of this meeting the door was opened for Cherry to lead a series of studies for many months on the core doctrines of the SDA church. I sat there as I saw the "doors open" and permission being given and thought this had to truly be of God. This meeting was the "spark" that made many in the church stop and think and study for themselves what they believed. I'm not sure where it is but I had an audio copy of the meeting that evening, I don't remember how much of the discussion afterward was on the copy that I was given. Richard rtruitt@mac.com |
