| Author | Message | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9292 Registered: 12-2003  |
I've been pondering how to summarize what I heard online this past Sunday. I was fixing lunch, and Richard tuned into Loma Linda Broadcasting Network online. They were broadcasting a DVD of a sermon Jon Paulien gave this last May in Ohio at the "Love of the Ages" weekend commemorating The Great Controversy. (Paulien was formerly a New Testament professor at Andrews seminary; currently he is the chair of the Faculty of Religion at Loma Linda University.) First, here is the press release for the weekend: On May 10, 2008 a celebration will take place in Kettering, Ohio, commemorating “the great controversy vision” received by Ellen White in Lovett’s Grove, Ohio, on March 14, 1858… Jon Paulien of Loma Linda University, will be presenting an important Bible study during Sabbath School entitled, “Paul, The Remnant, and the Great Controversy.” This important study explores how the theme of the Great Controversy vision informs Adventist identity and mission 150 years later… Richard tuned into Paulien's sermon partway through, but what he said was startling. I will try to relate the major points I remember. Remnant embraces Christianity, Judaism, and Islam First, Paulien developed the point that the book of Revelation describes "the remnant" as possessing certain characteristics. Then he proceeded to show that Christianity embraced a portion of these characteristics including "Jesus" and "the cross". Judaism, he said, embraced another portion of the remnant's characteristics including "Sabbath" and "the law". Finally, Islam embraced the final group of remnant characteristics including "revelation". I regret that I cannot remember the full complement of characteristics he said each of the three possessed. Paulien included a slide that showed Christianity, Judaism, and Islam outlining the three points of a triangle, and he drew a line from each of the three to the center where he said "the remnant" would be found: people bearing the characteristics of the remnant gleaned from each of these three traditions. Great Controversy equated with Cosmic Jihad Further, he quoted the Koran extensively, expressing his initial surprise when he discovered "what it said". He said that many of Ellen White's statements agreed with the Koran, and he further said that what she called "The Great Controversy" would be called by Muslims, using the Koran as their guide, "The Cosmic Jihad". Moreover, he repeatedly referred to "historic Adventism", saying it shared common themes with Judaism and Islam. Christianity originally "an Eastern religion" Pauline further stated that Christianity was originally "an Eastern religion" but that it moved into Europe and eventually America and became westernized. Today, he said, Christianity is declining in these continents and is "returning to its roots", flourishing now in Africa and the East. The Remnant includes (not limited to) the saved He quoted several scholars who are not believing Christians to support his thesis, building the point that original Christianity has been changed and no longer resembles its original presentation. He further made the point that "the remnant" historically was groups of people who were "unpredictable" and made up of varying people groups. He stated that "the remnant" described successive groups out of which God would save some of the people. Being a member of the remnant, he said, did not guarantee that a person would be saved. Rather, those God would save would be saved from the "remnant" groups. As I listened, I suddenly realized that what Paulien was saying is not merely one man's (or one geographic community's) opinion. His (unbiblical) definition of the remnant is the same definition given in this week's Sabbath School lesson in The Quarterly. Moreover, his weaving together the union of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam reflects the philosophy behind The Faith House (http://www.faithhousemanhattan.org/) supported by the Seventh-day Adventist Church which promotes the fellowship of Islam, Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, and Humanism to celebrate what they hold in common. Adventism promoting acceptance of non-Christian traditions I realized that the Adventist church is actively promoting this ecumenical idea, apparently preparing members to be tolerant of these other traditions, seeking to embrace them rather than to marginalize them. Somehow I see Adventism intentionally moving toward embracing a global spirituality that encompasses shared values with overtly non-Christian traditions. While none of this actually surprises me, I had not realized before hearing Paulien how intentional and perhaps "central" these concepts are to the core of Adventism's current leaders' thinking. I realized there were many within Adventism who had these ideas; I had not realized how centralized—as opposed to being concentrated in the "liberal fringe"—and intentional this indoctrination seems to be. Colleen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 3998 Registered: 9-2006  |
Colleen! I just ate my supper! | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 6358 Registered: 3-2004  |
Reading that makes one feel kind of yucky!!! Diana | ||
| Cathy2 Registered user Username: Cathy2 Post Number: 329 Registered: 2-2006 |
I shivered as I read this. | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 103 Registered: 8-2008 |
So he's agreeing that EGW wasn't a Christian? I guess SDA-ism defines the remnant as "those who keep the commandments of Moses and have the testimony of the prophet Muhammed." Sounds like typical SDA-ism, honestly. I am not at all surprised: It is okay to sacrifice anything and everything about the Gospel if doing so supports the special remnant status of the SDA organization. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4000 Registered: 9-2006 |
Old Jack Rip had drank and caroused around all his life till they built a church next to his house and started having revivals and sich. He could hear them praying and singing through his bedroom window at night. So old Jack took to going over there. Finally old Jack Rip went on the wagon and didn’t drink no more and he was thinking strongly about giving his heart to the Lord. Well sir, the devil didn’t like that at all and gave his demons orders to get old Jack Rip out of there and stop him from going over to that church. The devil told his demons “You got till daylight to come up with an answer and if you don’t I’m going to wail the tar out of you!!” So a dozen demons met in the corner of old Jacks house to decide what best way to tackle the problem. The devil looked on with piercing eyes as those demons put their heads together. One suggested tempting old Jack with a snort of aged whiskey, but another said “We might not get it past his lips.” Another suggested tempting him with a wayward women, but another said “What he if won’t take her and she may get saved to, then we’ll be in real trouble with the boss.” So one after the other the demons put forward proposals as they worked through the night. There was little sawed off wizened demon who sat over in the corner thinking, he paced this way and that, he banged his head against the wall, he rolled himself up into a ball and sat there rocking back and forth through the night. Finally just at daybreak he unrolled himself and jumped up and says “I got it!! I got it!! The other demons looked over at him because he hadn’t put in a suggestion all night. The little demon said “Just let him have Jesus, only give him Mohammed, Buddha, Ellen G. White and a score of others, so that’s what they did. They sat on his shoulder and whispered in his ear “If you will go along with this you will be happy Jack Rip, after all doesn’t all these others deserve your attention too? And that way you won’t miss anyone or offend anyone, you’ll have it all!” Old jack said “Now that sounds reasonable.” And he never bothered with that church again, he set statues up in his house, one from the Catholic church, one of Buddha and Mohammed, he hung pictures of Ellen White on his wall and Ellen Whites blazing eyes looked down upon him and Buddha and Mohammed stared up at him and he knelt three times a day facing the East and paid homage to them all. And the devil was satisfied and went back to walking to and fro in the earth.  River P.S. The moral to that story is wrapped up in this scripture. Isaiah 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images. | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1585 Registered: 4-2000  |
Without any doubt, the General Conference president seriously lacks in understanding basic elements of Christology and soteriology among other essentials of the Christian faith. Dr. Paulsen owes it to himself and his church to become familiar with the doctrines of grace instead of additional Ellenologies. Let us remember to pray for our Adventist friends and relatives that they too may find divine rest for their souls. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 398 Registered: 1-2006  |
I also assumed Paulsen when I read Paulien! This is a serious concession to non-christian religions. I realize there is much discussion about Acts 4:12, but I cannot read the NT and agree with SDAs and other religions that deny Christ or that say that the death of Christ wasn't necessary, or that promote man-made religion. Phil 1:27,28 gives a sign to the lost. I wonder how many SDA evangelists have even read those verses or know what they mean. Bob | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 104 Registered: 8-2008 |
But Dennis's comment could apply to Paulsen as well.
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| Gcfrankie Registered user Username: Gcfrankie Post Number: 291 Registered: 1-2007 |
After reading Colleens message this brought to mind a novel I read maaaany years ago called "This Present Darkness" but I can not remember the authors name. It is a story about the devil and his minions attacking christians. As I was growing up I heard about satan and sin but never had a good understanding and this novel really opened my eyes to the nastiness satan does. Boy did Paulien sure opened a can of worms with that statement! Didn't egw teach that all other religions are of satan and they are the remant church only? Now I would like to see the sda wiggle out of this statement and I can only pray that the people will open their eyes and study (without the writings of egw) and see the real truth that Jesus has given us. I have come to the conclusion that sda is one of the devils playground! I wonder if sda's really understand satan and the havoc he raises. I know I certainly didn't until I left the church and sincerely got into God's word without the help of egw. My heart breaks for those who are on the wrong playground and I pray that God will open the gate and lead them out and into the right playground before it is too late. I know since finding the right playground I have a true friend (Jesus) who will always be there and I don't have to be scared that if I make a mistake (sin) and I am sorry and ask for forgiveness that He will not walk away but will still be my friend no matter what. Sorry for the rant but I get sooo tired of the gc talking out of both sides of their mouths. Gail | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 399 Registered: 1-2006 |
Bskillet Good point! It was necessary for me to deal honestly with Ellen before I could let go of Adventism. My summary: 1.She is definitely a prophet (having claimed "I saw" "I was shown" 'said the angel" etc, some 1900 times) 2. She repeatedly meets the definition of a false prophet given in Deut 18. Even if some prophecies come true, even one failed prophecy makes the prophet a false prophet. This is what God is saying in Deut 18. This was no easy matter, because I suspected that Adventism would be over for me if I really got to the bottom of it and could satisfy myself that she had indeed made unconditional and unfulfilled prophecies. I did this by visiting the White Estate Library in Loma Linda and requesting the "food for worms" vision materials. I was given an article written by Arthur White in about 1956, I think it was, in which the issue of unconditional vs conditional prophecies was discussed. This was an unconditional prophecy. The church was having to come to grips with the fact that Christ had not come in the lifetimes of even infants who were present when the vision was received. No doubt, this was a real prophecy, direct from Ellen's source, and no doubt that it was unconditional and unfilfilled. Once I had satisfied myself that there was no way she could have been a true prophet, then I was faced with the reality that she was indeed a false prophet, and that I had better run! Not being built on a solid foundation, Adventism crumbled rather quickly for me. There's one more thing that I think is important to mention: I'm not boasting, and I'm not perfect, but it requires a degree of honesty and integrity that is not easy to find. The Lord put me in work environments where dishonesty was rampant and forced me to come to grips with my own tolerance of dishonesty, in myself and in others. I believe the Lord granted me about 15 years of "on the job learning" with deeply dishonest employers before I learned that lesson well enough to face adventism honestly. Again, I'm not bragging, but just wanted to share what I had to go through before I had the integrity to call a spade a spade. Bob | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4001 Registered: 9-2006 |
Would you say that God had you working toward a degree in honesty Bob? Glad you graduated! River | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 400 Registered: 1-2006 |
Let's hope so, River. God knows I needed it, and it took a lot of gradual exposure and frustration with such blatanty dishonest employers before I absolutely could not endure it any longer. But those lessons served me well when it came to evaluating Adventism. Without those lessons, I am sure I'd still be an SDA because it was far easier to be an SDA than to leave, at least in my situation. Bob (Message edited by bobj on January 21, 2009) | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4003 Registered: 9-2006 |
I was hoping to get a degree in electronics in a few years and instead God gave me a degree come-uppance and it only took 15 years. Bob old son, I think we may have a lot in common. Both been in school about the same amount of time. I bet if we compared notes we probably went to the same school. I attended S.O.H.N (school of hard knocks) class of '73. River | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 6362 Registered: 3-2004 |
I like to say that God used the 12 step program to clear the SDA cobwebs out of my brain. That way when God said "come" to me, I just got up and left adventism. Hey did anyone watch the ceremony at the National Cathredral this AM. Wintley Phipps, SDA singer sang at the ceremony. I knew him as a 16 year old in Montreal, Quebec and knew his father as well. SDAs must be walking on air because he sang for the new president. Now back to our regulary scheduled program. Diana L | ||
| Daisie_girl Registered user Username: Daisie_girl Post Number: 92 Registered: 9-2008 |
I attended a missions conference (non-denominational) this weekend. It was a great conference with many workshops to chose from. One of the workshops I attended was entitled "Are there many paths to one God or just many paths?" The guy who led the workshop was a Seminary grad student and discussed how in our culture, the idea of who God is, how people can be saved has become so thwarted. I don't have my notes with me now . . . he made a ton of good points. But there is one that struck me that is so parallel to the sways of adventism. He said that as a culture, and even Christian culture, we have begun to accept "inclusive" ideas about the Bible and salvation. "What journey God leads you on is your journey and what journey God leads me on is my journey. Neither are wrong just different journeys." While God does have us down different paths, it does not give license to God contradicting Himself (i.e. you can get to salvation by works, you can follow a prophet and be okay, etc.) The Bible, he said (and I whole heartedly agree with this) is very "exlusive" about salvation, describes a very unique God, and is very clear on how you get to the Father - through Jesus Christ. One topic he mentioned was the idea of hell being eternal. Many people, SDA and non-SDA alike, hold to the fact that an eternal hell does not match the idea of a loving and compassionate God. Well, in their minds it doesn't. But if you do a word study on "hell" sure enough, it's eternal. Just because we don't understand it, does not mean it isn't true. Just because we can't wrap our minds around it, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. Listening to this workshop flooded my mind with the teachings and sayings that I heard many times within the SDA church. This "universal" approach to God is dangerous! People aren't seeking the Lord and don't pursue the Bible, and like Proverbs 2 says, that if you don't do those things, you can be easily deceived - as I was. It was fascinating to hear and even still more grieving to know that people are being sucked into this theology and mindset. All I can say is "Come, Lord Jesus, come!" | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9293 Registered: 12-2003 |
Adventism without doubt fits an "emergent mindset" perfectly. It can morph any which way except into true Christianity which embraces Jesus ALONE as one's righteousness. I believe Adventists are set up to accept the real mark of the beast because they believe thy KNOW it will be SUNDAY "worship". This talk of Paulien's solidified a deep sense that Adventism is not just "accidentally" moving toward destruction. His talk coupled with things being said in The Quarterly as well as projects such as the "Faith House" in Manhattan convince me that the church itself is preparing the members to be desensitized to ecumenical moves that embrace other religions. I don't think we can blame these things on the "liberals". I believe the church is positioning its people to see these things through post-modern "glasses". Colleen | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1586 Registered: 4-2000 |
Diana, I also noticed Admiral Black, the SDA Senate Chaplain, walking around the tables at the Congressional dinner yesterday for President Obama and his new administration. With such notable Adventists in public life, the so-called "National Sunday Law" becomes increasingly inconceivable. However, the older SDA members greatly miss hearing sermons on the "National Sunday Law." It has been an interesting tug-of-war for Seventh-day Adventists--loving sermons about an impending National Sunday Law and yet fighting for religious liberty at the same time. Apparently, without the first perfect Adventist to step forward, they must continue their struggle endlessly. Based on their current status and belief, Jesus will NEVER return. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 402 Registered: 1-2006 |
Colleen I really wonder about the value of ecumenism. If we must deny Christ or the solas of the reformation just to widen our sphere of influence, what's the point? We're not called to win a popularity contest. So the Jews deny Christ but bring us the old covenant and feast days, the Catholics bring us Mary and penance, the Mormons add the teachings of Joseph Smith, Adventists bring us the investigative judgment, voodoo worshipers bring us chickens, and everybody's right about something, aren't they, and please pass the hot dish! OK, I'm sorry, but really, where is adventism headed? I just ended a conversation with an SDA who stressed loyalty to the church and personal pride above doctrinal integrity (while his family members live without spiritual peace) and I guess I just need to take a long walk and calm down. I had an uncle who died, life long adventist, and he said on his death bed that he was a lost man, and his wife is still living, and the man I was talking a few minutes ago (a retired SDA minister)is about the only person on the face of the earth that could help her spiritually, and he is too proud to do it, (he said so!), and it just breaks my heart. I am almost beyond words. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4004 Registered: 9-2006 |
You, Daisy_girl, are so right. The theology mindset is not limited to SDA, but is rampant and healthy in the evangelical world as well. They divide it, multiply it, subtract it, analyze it and say thats it. This is the way we row our boat, row our boat, row our boat fearfully down the stream. The healthy way to study theology is to be willing to enter the struggle. You remember Monday night when education was mentioned and I said college just prepares you to learn and you looked at me with recognition in your eyes and said "That's is right, it gives us the tools to learn." It's the same in theology, it gives us the tools to learn. Albert Einstein came up with the theory of relativity because he was willing to think outside the standard accepted box and learned men had to come to the conclusion that they had been wrong all along. Most Adventist (or evangelicals) for that matter are not willing to think outside the accepted and established box and they don't even know why. It's the lemming thing all over again, but you can't tell them that. It happens all the time, people come out of Adventism and settle on some theological dime and as far as the theological mindset goes, all they did was trade one mindset for another mindset that sounds better to them at the time and you couldn't blow them out of that box with a stick of dynamite. Now what I am saying has nothing to do with a persons salvation, the salvation message is simple enough for a child with Downs syndrome. But I've seen it and I swear to you it is true that over half... maybe even three quarters of the people on this forum just traded one theological mindset for another. I challenge you Daisy_girl to be prepared to look at the Bible...really look at it and ask questions. To go to God with the approach that you are willing to step out to the best of your ability and let him lead you out into the deep waters, to see whats out there, what he has for you. It is sometimes painful, uncomfortable and sometimes downright fearful to be willing to go into different situations, but you look at the Bible as a whole and see if God didn't always lead his children into unfamiliar territory. The former Adventist has something that most evangelicals will never know...A chance at a fresh start. He/she has the world as their oyster so to speak. Crap, when an Adventist comes out of that box most don't even know where to go to church or what to do with themselves. It sometimes takes them six months to stick their head out the door because all of a sudden it is a brave new world. First thing you know they have transferred the Adventist mindset for a Baptist, or Methodist, or any number of mindsets. They blow their chance to have the Lord lead them. People say "Oh, I'm non-denominational!" Well crap, their just in a denomination that ain't got the guts to declare what they believe in, if thats a feather in their hat it ain't much of a hat if you ask me. Even if you didn't ask you knew I would tell you anyhow. If he would have wanted them in the same old mindset, he would have set them there in the first place. Like Lori said "River write the book!" I challenge you "Write the book and ask God to fill the pages and he will." Instead of plagiarizing someone elses work. All most formers do is plagiarize others work and call it good. Well...when the Lord ask why you didn't take the chance offered, ya can't blame him. River |
