| Author | Message | ||
| Bb Registered user Username: Bb Post Number: 325 Registered: 7-2004 |
As I putter around my house, my mother is sitting outside on a beautiful day reading her pocket "Great Controversy"  Seems like a good way to ruin the day to me! Anyway, I was talking to my SDA cousin yesterday who was telling me about when her mother (my aunt) was ill and about to pass away (a few years ago). She said... "Mother always wanted to see Jesus coming in the clouds, and fought dying because she wanted to be alive". Then she added that sister white tells us that just before Jesus comes He will raise up the "dead in Christ" so that they will be able to witness Him coming in the clouds. She said she didn't know why her mother didn't remember that sister white had said this. I don't remember hearing that before! Anybody else? | ||
| Pnoga Registered user Username: Pnoga Post Number: 203 Registered: 1-2007  |
I have heard my B-I-L say that. I asked him to show me scripture but really could not. He could only direct me to the Great Contradictory, I mean ContradictVerses,oh... Contoversy. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 6269 Registered: 3-2004  |
I remember being taught that. I am sure it is an Ellenism. There is a lot I have forgotten until it is brought up by another person. Diana L | ||
| Lifeanew Registered user Username: Lifeanew Post Number: 189 Registered: 10-2007 |
I was taught this also. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 1 Thes 4:16 Jan | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 1768 Registered: 8-2004  |
Does that verse provide basis for a resurrection before Jesus comes, or only as the first to be raised when he comes? As an SDA I was taught there would be a 'special resurrection' some time before Jesus actually appeared. I don't see it. | ||
| Animal Registered user Username: Animal Post Number: 368 Registered: 7-2008  |
The aunt is indeed refering to the "special resurrection" They(SDA) get this belief from Daniel 12:2. SDA also believe that certain of Christs enemies down thru the ages will be resurrected too, just before His appearing. For this belief they use Rev.1:7 and Matt26:64. I was taught this in my early days as an adventist. I was dumb enuff to believe them....woe is Animal. | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1576 Registered: 4-2000  |
Interestingly, Adventists believe in a "special resurrection" and Dispensationalists believe in a "special coming" or snatching away. Both events supposedly take place prior to the second coming of Jesus, and both views are without biblical support. Dennis Fischer | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 3934 Registered: 9-2006  |
I believe the “snatching away” idea is taken from these scripture. Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Matthew 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, Matthew 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Matthew 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Matthew 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Thessalonians I 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Thessalonians I 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Some may not consider this Biblical support, but some do. 1 Thessalonian 4:17 certainly seems to indicate a “snatching away” since it’s obvious that only the saved who are living at the time of Christ return will meet the Lord in the air. Also Matthew 24:40 seems to indicate the same thing. To say that they have NO support for this seems a little presumptuous to me in light of the scripture. River | ||
| Tkmommy Registered user Username: Tkmommy Post Number: 93 Registered: 1-2007 |
I believe verses in Thessalonians are saying there are two ressurections, those that believers that have died are risen first and those that are still alive then meet those in the air...but I think verse 16 clearly states that the "dead in christ" rise after the Lord returns from heaven. However, Matthew 24:40 and 41 I have never been clear on, and can see easily how those who believe in the Rapture can use those as defense (prooftexting?)...would be interested for someone to shed some light on those. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 3937 Registered: 9-2006 |
TKmommy, This same situation is mentioned again in Corinthians I 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, Corinthians I 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. Here he is saying we shall not all sleep, basically he is saying we shall not all die, which adds to the fodder for that Rapture cannon. Now people that advocate for the Rapture think that it could take place pretty much any moment in our time because they feel that all known prophecy has been fulfilled already. Personally I think these text clearly indicate this and from what I suspect, although I have no scripture to indicate it, the church will see the very beginning of the great tribulation. Why I suspect this is that there will come a time when God will start refining his church and it will no longer be popular to say you are a Christian which time right now seems to be pointing toward that. I have always suspected this deep down since the early days of my Christianity and it seems to be pointing toward that now. It seems that the forces of anti-Christ are aligning against the Christian more and more. People like those in Hollywood are making sport of Christ and Christians more and more, in other words Satan is becoming more brazen in his attacks on Christ and his church. It has been a long time since I studied prophecy and I did study it for a good long time until I came to the conclusion that for me today and what falls to me today is more important than what will happen somewhere off in the future. In other words its more important to me to be fully committed to each day I am given than to worry about days that I may not be given. We individually may not have another five minutes to serve the Lord so I am not going to waste time arguing over where there will be a Rapture or not or how many resurrections there are. Personally I don't have enough time in the day to worry about this stuff since there don't seem to be enough time in the day to work and make a living and devote time to Bible study, thought and a little prayer. I no more than get up and it seems the day is gone. Yes, verse 16 is very clear, first means first, what else can you get out of the word first in the context of the scripture. To make something else out of what this says is in my own opinion just not showing common sense. Scripture points to two resurrections, those that are dead in Christ and the Christian that is alive and remaining will be caught up and at a later time those who have died without Christ will to resurrected to eternal damnation. Tkmommy, have a wonderful day in the Lord. River | ||
| Mommyk Registered user Username: Mommyk Post Number: 231 Registered: 4-2007  |
River said: "...I came to the conclusion that for me today and what falls to me today is more important than what will happen somewhere off in the future. In other words its more important to me to be fully committed to each day I am given than to worry about days that I may not be given. We individually may not have another five minutes to serve the Lord so I am not going to waste time arguing over where there will be a Rapture or not or how many resurrections there are." AMEN river! I couldn't agree more! God bless! ~Kristen | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1577 Registered: 4-2000 |
Matthew 24:40,41 refers to be taken in judgment (cf.v.39), just as in Noah's day ("took them"). The unsaved antediluvians were obviously not raptured. Only by "prooftexting" one can come up with the rapture idea--a belief that came into limited acceptance 1800 years after Christ. Most Christians in the world today still do not believe in the rapture or "snatching away." Likewise, one can find non-contextual support for polygamy and slavery by prooftexting plus a host of other aberrations. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9245 Registered: 12-2003  |
It's interesting to me that numberless great men and women of God who love and handle His word with great care and respect come up with different understandings of the details of eschatology. This fact convinces me, apart from my own study, that the Bible doesn't spell out the future in specific detail. There is enough nebulousness that we can't divide over these details. God has not given us enough to be dogmatic. When I think of men like John MacArthur and John Piper and R.C. Sproul who each hold different understandings (with John MacArthur being a true Reformed theologian until he gets to his dispensational view of eschatology...), I can only say: if they don't agree, who am I to be dogmatic? I believe we all will be surprised--but we all KNOW we will be caught up with Jesus and be eternally with HIM! That we know!! Colleen | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1580 Registered: 4-2000 |
Good points, Colleen. Eschatology should not divide us as Christ-followers. To his credit, John MacArthur describes himself as a "leaky" dispensationalist. In our non-denominatonal church, no rigid view is held in regard to eschatology with the exception of basic information about heaven and hell. I think we will ALL find ourselves to be eventually wrong, in various degrees, about future events. Our sovereign God wisely didn't give us precise, ironclad details of future earthly events. Our knowing exact details about tomorrow would adversely impact the quality of our life today. By the way, despite their differences, Piper, Sproul, and MacArthur get along very well. Getting the Gospel right should be our top priority. Dennis Fischer | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 3941 Registered: 9-2006 |
Quote: Most Christians in the world today still do not believe in the rapture or "snatching away." Likewise, one can find non-contextual support for polygamy and slavery by prooftexting plus a host of other aberrations. (end quote) I don't know whether you meant this like it sounded when you say "likewise." It sounded as though you were saying that a person with a dispensationalist point of view of the Rapture would use proof texting and would use the Bible for other unsavory means to justify such things as polygamy or slavery plus a "Host of other aberrations" as you put it. This kind of language is what causes division, not the difference in points of view. River | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1545 Registered: 7-2003  |
Without taking sides in the debate (because the bottom line is none of us know for sure) I would like to correct a very important factual error above. The fact is, *ALL* Bible believing Christians believe we will be raptured although they might not use that particular Latin-based word. The word "rapture" is essentially the Latin word that the Vulgate used to translate 1 Thess 4:17. The original Greek word being translated is "harpazo" which literally means, "to seize upon with force, to rob". In our English translations harpazo is translated in the following ways:
So whether you use the Greek word "harpazo", the latin-derived word "rapture", or the English equivalents like "caught", "carry off" or "snatched away" we're all talking about the same biblical concept. We all believe we will experience a harpazo, a rapture, a catching up, a snatching away. Please remember this: The debate is not about IF we will experience the rapture, the Bible is clear we will. The debate is about WHEN we will experience the rapture (i.e. is there any gap between when we are raptured and when Christ physically descends to the earth for all to see?). I think we would all do much better if we got past the language and the dogmatism and tried to understand why our Christian brothers and sisters differ on these points. Even more pertinent to this forum perhaps is understanding what our brothers and sisters ACTUALLY do and don't believe as opposed to just what we THINK they believe. Sometimes our understanding of difering opinions is quite poor. Chris | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 1477 Registered: 11-2005 |
Actually Adventism teaches three resurrections, and I can find you the exact references if you want me to look them up. In addition to the two resurrections that the Bible teaches, Ellen White states that the third resurrection occurs so that there will be 144,000 living when Christ comes. Snook and Brinkerhoff question how the people can be alive at Christ's Second Coming, that susequently died after Ellen's famous "some living, some food for worms, etc" quote. Uriah Smith explains that these people will be alive at the Second Coming because they are resurrected in Ellen White's special third resurrection of enough to produce 144,000 living before Christ comes. Like I said, if you want me to I can look up the exact quotes for you. I have them over on my DefendingThe Gospel.com website in some material I haven't published yet. | ||
| Akweavers Registered user Username: Akweavers Post Number: 95 Registered: 8-2008 |
jorgfe: So is that third resurrection why that is not considered a failed prophesy?(food for worms) I always heard it was not failed because it was conditional? | ||
| Joyfulheart Registered user Username: Joyfulheart Post Number: 435 Registered: 10-2006 |
Gilbert, That must be some collection of yet to be published material! I for one would really like to see the quotes. You know, I just read a story to my class about a little white lie that grew and grew and finally became so big that there was no room in the house for anything else. As I was reading to my kids, I started thinking about how that story is similar to (at least historic) Adventism... and Ellen's plagiarism ...and the shut door... and 1844 and I could go on and on... | ||
| Animal Registered user Username: Animal Post Number: 379 Registered: 7-2008 |
Ellen White...poster child for vinegar abuse |
