| Author | Message | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1773 Registered: 6-2006  |
Hec, you asked: "Aren't all questions welcome and answered?" I keep looking through Dragonfly's posts and can't find a question anywhere. Mostly a lot of statements and accusations. Do you see something I don't see? Leigh Anne (Message edited by grace_alone on August 29, 2010) | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1305 Registered: 3-2009 |
Maybe I'm just putting myself in his/her place. Sometimes I make a statement hoping that someone would comment on it to clarify my thinking. It comes out as arguing, but in reality it's a way of asking a question. I don't know that that is what Dragonfly is doing, but I would give him/her the benefit of the doubt until it's proven the contrary. Maybe we did not give him/her enough of a chance to explain himself/herself. Hec | ||
| Dragonfly Registered user Username: Dragonfly Post Number: 6 Registered: 8-2010 |
Okay I will try thing again with less statements and accusations. I have question why the focus is on the 4th commandment. One can keep the 4th commandment but break another. How is this not all between God and one self. So my question is don't the Holy feast when spiritually discerned explain Gods salvation plan. Then should this not be our teachings to one another? I am stuck on is Paul said..."He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked" (1 John 2:6).Jesus risked His personal safety to attend the annual Feast of Tabernacles (John 7:1-2, 7-10, 14) If paul new what was ceremonial he sure by his actions did not believe the Holy days to be done away with. Paul's ministry repeatedly depicts the Holy Days as important observances and milestones in his life. For example, he told the Christians in Ephesus, "I must by all means keep this coming feast in Jerusalem" (Acts 18:21). In Acts 20:16 and 1 Corinthians 16:8 we find Paul arranging his travel schedule to accommodate the Feast of Pentecost. In Acts 27:9 Luke, Paul's companion in his travels, referred to a particular time of year as being after "the Fast," a reference to the Day of Atonement. No church I have ever attended spoke a word about Gods holy days. The advent movement places this on the back shelf and all lights are on saturday. I will let you know I do not believe the actions of keeping a day prepares ones heart. Zec 4:6b (NIV) "'Not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit,' says the Lord Almighty. | ||
| Dragonfly Registered user Username: Dragonfly Post Number: 7 Registered: 8-2010 |
I just figured out that we should make our own threads. Sorry to who ever started this one. | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1375 Registered: 7-2007 |
Dragonfly; the feasts all represented a prophetic time-line of Christ. Jesus was probably born during the Feast of Tabernacles. God tabernacled with us. Christ died at Passover. He's the Passover Lamb. Christ rose at First Fruits. He's the First Fruits from the dead. The Holy Spirit was given at the feast of Pentacost. And Christ will very possibly come again at the Feast of Trumpets. The Lord will return with the sound of a trumpet. Paul kept the feasts because he was Jewish and knew the true meaning of them, not because he had to in order to be saved. Keeping them ISN'T REQUIRED to be saved. The unsaved Jewish people kept them out of obligation. Those of us in the United States keep Thanksgiving, not because we do it to be saved, but because of this country's history. Dragonfly, you seem to be worried about things that aren't salvation issues. Yes, it bugs me too that 300 years after Jesus died and rose, the Roman Catholic church came along and discarded all the feasts that had meaning and substituted pagan feasts instead; but again these aren't salvation issues. They are interesting to discuss though.  | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1776 Registered: 6-2006 |
Can I just clarify ~ Christians aren't celebrating "Pagan feasts" when they celebrate the birth of Christ. True, Christmas may have commandeered dates corrolating with pagan festivals and turned them to Christ when they decided to make their own celebrations, but we aren't pagans for celebrating them and Christmas is NOT a pagan festival. It has been recorded by the early church historians that Christians have celebrated the birth of Christ as early as 200 AD. Are you going to tell me that for 2000 years all these believers have been committing a sin? If you're going to call Christmas a pagan festival then it would behoove you to also stop using words including the days of the week like Saturday (named for the goddess of Saturn) and Friday (named for the goddess Fria), as well as all the months of the year lest you be participating in pagan activites. Condemning Christians for celebrating the birth of Christ is no different when SDA's condemn Christians for worshipping on Sunday. Leigh Anne | ||
| Dragonfly Registered user Username: Dragonfly Post Number: 8 Registered: 8-2010 |
"The LORD your God will cut off before you the nations you are about to invade and dispossess. But when you have driven them out and settled in their land, and after they have been destroyed before you, be careful not to be ensnared by inquiring about their gods, saying, 'How do these nations serve their gods? We will do the same.' "You MUST NOT worship the LORD your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the LORD HATES . . . See that you do all I command you; do NOT add to it or TAKE AWAY from it." (Deuteronomy 12:29-32, NKJV, emphasis added throughout) Notice that Israel was warned to not borrow or adapt the ways pagan nations use to worship a FALSE God and apply them to their worship of the TRUE God. God is telling ancient Israel, and us by extension, that sinful pagan customs are not made right by applying them to Him. God didn't accept the worship of the Golden Calf as worship directed to Him despite Aaron proclaiming a "festival to the Lord" (verse 5) would occur the next day. God's anger was kindled toward the Israelites for introducing pagan practices into their worship of Him. God was ready to DESTROY the Israelites, the very people He recently freed from Egypt, for such disobedience until Moses intervened (Exodus 32:11-14). Customs used to worship false gods that are transferred to the true God are unacceptable since Scripture says God never compromises with paganism. Consider a simple analogy that will help explain this Biblical principle. Let's suppose that after a man gets married he places around the house, in prominent locations, framed pictures of his ex-girlfriends. How would the wife feel about these reminders of his former loves? Would she be convinced his devotion to her was full-hearted? Would such an explanation as, "When I look at them, I think of you instead" be all that convincing? | ||
| Dragonfly Registered user Username: Dragonfly Post Number: 9 Registered: 8-2010 |
Asurprise thank you for the welcome. Yes I am new at the bible and I am sorry about using sunday keeper. I have no issue when people come together. What I mean is the spring feast are complete. What has not taken place is the fall feast. Yes I understand our salvation is in Christ. Which commandments was Jesus telling us to keep? Would it be...Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them Jeremiah10:2 Or is it the personal commandments given by the holy spirit? | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1777 Registered: 6-2006 |
Dragonfly, Again, if the way you're explaining it is true then I'm assuming you're forsaking anything associated with things NOT of God. What do you call the days of the week or the months of the year? Seriously, do you have your own holy words for those? Also you did not answer my question about the tradition of Christmas. Are you telling me that every Christian for the last 2000 years who commemorates Christ's birth has been wrong or sinful? You are projecting your own opinions as well as old testament laws to new covenant Christians and it is offensive. You are more than welcome not to celebrate or even acknowlege Christ's birth but don't condemn Christians for wanting to do so in thanksgiving to God. Leigh Anne | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 751 Registered: 8-2008 |
Dragonfly, your error is that you assume that you are an Old Covenant Israelite. You are not. The Old Covenant had an expiration date: No one anymore is under the Old Covenant Law. Even Jews today who live as if they are, are themselves mistaken. They only live this way because they reject their Messiah. Their Law has been set aside, fulfilled in Christ. Furthermore, Jesus Himself said that the feasts and practices of the Old Covenant would come to and end with His appearance: By desiring to worship according to the Old Covenant feasts, which were focused on the Old Covenant Temple, you are refusing to worship God in spirit and truth, and instead want to worship Him according only to "physical regulations" that "only deal with food, drink, and various washings imposed until the time of restoration" (Heb. 9:10). The Bible is explicitly and inarguably clear that the feasts were a shadow of Christ: You desire a shadow, rather than the substance, which is the Messiah Jesus of Nazareth. Do not be hard-hearted like those under the Old Covenant who rejected Israel's Messiah. Paul states that all those who teach a gospel different from what he has taught are under God's condemnation (Gal. 1:8, 9). I am asking you, please, for your own good, repent of your false gospel, which is no gospel at all, and turn to obey the gospel that was delivered once to all the saints. (Message edited by bskillet on August 30, 2010) | ||
| Dragonfly Registered user Username: Dragonfly Post Number: 10 Registered: 8-2010 |
2 Timothy 3:16-17, "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." I will respond to both Bskillet and Grace_alone. I am sure you are aware the bible is calling for people of the last days to repent. If you do not celebrate Christ in a worldly way then don't feel condemed. Take it from Bskillet who has shown those who require a shadow are in need of repentance. I believe the Holy day feast when taught with a spiritual application is all truth. We have scriptur that shows Paul keeping the feast.Corinthians16 Therefore I urge you to imitate me. This is from Pauls mouth not mine. Grace_alone I am sorry for not being more sensative to those who see not the same way I do. I once fallowed the tradtions of the world. I felt really stupid for then teaching my children that Christ was the reason for the season. You can not add Christ to something he has never been in. I also don't understand why me speaking about the feast is an evil thing, In need of repentance. | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 752 Registered: 8-2008 |
Yes, All Scripture, including the NT. If the OT commands something to be done by those who are parties to the Old Covenant, then those people were required to do so. But All Scripture--the Canon that includes the NT--says that the born-again Christian is not a party to the Old Covenant. The fact that the Old Covenant Law is "useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work," does not mean that a person is required to do obey its 613 commandments. I remind you that All Scripture includes the commands regarding the Old Covenant sacrifices, but no one believes that a Christian is required to carry those out. It also includes commands to be circumcised, but the same man who wrote 2 Tim. 3:16-17 also demanded the Galatian Christians NOT to be circumcised. Yes, and that inclues you, who are teaching a false Gospel and not obeying the Truth. Where, among Gentiles, is Paul ever found keeping any of the feasts or urging Gentile Christians to do so? Rather, Paul explains his behavior among Jews:
I'm sure you mean 1 Cor. 4:16. The context is not observance of Old Covenant rituals, but Paul's willingness to put himself below others and suffer humiliation for the sake of the Gospel. You are proof-texting, ignoring context. This has always been the last resort of all Judaizers who oppose the Gospel. As well, you have failed to discuss any of the passages I before cited, including the one where Jesus Himself explicitly said the Old Covenant ritual/feast system would be brought to an end. (Message edited by bskillet on August 30, 2010) | ||
| Teresa Registered user Username: Teresa Post Number: 23 Registered: 10-2006 |
Here is a good article about Christmas and Easter.http://www.comereason.org/soc_culture/soc030.asp | ||
| Teresa Registered user Username: Teresa Post Number: 24 Registered: 10-2006 |
Here is a good article about Christmas and Easter. http://www.comereason.org/soc_culture/soc030.asp | ||
| Teresa Registered user Username: Teresa Post Number: 25 Registered: 10-2006 |
OOPs...Sorry for the double post! | ||
| Dragonfly Registered user Username: Dragonfly Post Number: 11 Registered: 8-2010 |
In forcing Gentile believers to practice Jewish Customs not found in God's Law. A Judaizer (someone who preaches that one must first become a Jew in order to become a follower of the Jewish Messiah, and that non-Jews must practice Jewish customs and traditions in order to be saved). "Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts" (Leviticus 23:2). Note that he did not say these are the feasts of the Jew's or feasts of the Christians but the "feasts of the Lord", which both Jews and Christians can celebrate. Why? Because they are the "Lord's" festivals and Paul tells us that Jesus is Lord (Philippians 2:11). God said in Exodus 12:14 "And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the Lord throughout your generations, ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance FOREVER." We keep memorials for events and people. Yet you are telling me that if we keep the memorial God ordained its false gospel. Terms such as 'for ever and ever,' 'perpetual' and 'from generation to generation,' if all along His plan was to do away with the Feast Days at the Mount of Calvary. | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1313 Registered: 3-2009 |
Sigh!!!!! Hec | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3372 Registered: 10-2004  |
That same everlasting ordinance in Exodus 12 also says:
And yet Paul said regarding those who wanted to circumcise the Gentiles:
You can't celebrate the Passover until you are circumcised and yet throughout the New Testament Paul clearly teaches against circumcision for Gentiles. Therefore, Gentile Christians are not supposed to celebrate the Passover. Q.E.D. Jeremy | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1779 Registered: 6-2006 |
Dragonfly, I couldn't care less whether or not you celebrate Christ's birth, but anyone who would discourage Christians from celebrating, praising or worshipping Christ on any day or in any season, or on any occasion is clearing teaching a false gospel. That is truly more serious than you realize. I will shake the dust off my sandals and move on. Leigh Anne | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11622 Registered: 12-2003  |
Dragonfly, were you an Adventist...and if so, for how long? I'm trying to understand why you joined this forum if you are not here to "unpack" your Adventist ideas and become grounded in a biblical worldview as a new covenant Christian. It appears that English is not your first language; therefore, your statements are sometimes a bit hard to understand. I am getting the idea, however, that you are here more to convince us that as former Adventists we should be moving toward all the feasts and ceremonies instead of away from them. I am understanding you to say that Adventism is wrong—but not because it's stuck in Old Testament shadows and an incomplete atonement and an unbiblical view of the nature of man and a false prophet. Rather, it seems you think it's wrong because they don't keep ALL the feasts and ceremonies. Dragonfly, you are not going to convince the people here of your position. Once a person has met the living, risen Jesus and has accepted His blood as the once-for-all, eternal payment for their sin and has been born of the Spirit, it becomes totally clear that ALL the feasts and ceremonies are fulfilled in Him and no longer apply to new covenant Christians. Moreover, Jesus broke the power of Satan on the cross (Co. 2:15) and made times and places obsolete (John 4:2-26). He died on a pagan instrument of torture and transformed the evil cross into an instrument of redemption. It doesn't matter whether or not pagan holidays underlie days like Christmas and Easter as far as their calendar dates go. Those things are temporal, not eternal. Jesus is eternal, and we may celebrate His birth and resurrection on any day at all--even if that day was once a pagan holiday. What matters is that we are not celebrating the day or calling the day holy. We are celebrating the eternal Lord Jesus and what He has done for us. The day isn't sacred; Jesus is. This isn't the venue to try to convince anyone to keep the feast days! Even though I asked earlier for people to speak respectfully here, I do agree with the bottom line those early posts reflected: Jesus is Lord, and we are not here to debate keeping the old covenant shadows. Colleen |
