| Author | Message | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1200 Registered: 3-2009 |
What's the difference between:
Hec | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3300 Registered: 10-2004  |
Hec, What is the context of Philippians 2:9? Jeremy | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1201 Registered: 3-2009 |
I believe it is the unity of believers and humility. But it still says that God exalted Him. I know is not what it looks like at first sight, but how do I explain the difference to some SDA that asks trying to justify EGW? Hec | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1740 Registered: 6-2006  |
Here's the whole context. Philippians 2:1-11 Imitating Christ's Humility 1If you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any fellowship with the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, 2then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and purpose. 3Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves. 4Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others. 5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: 6Who, being in very nature[a] God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7but made himself nothing, taking the very nature[b] of a servant, being made in human likeness. 8And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death— even death on a cross! 9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, 10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. *** It has absolutely nothing to do with angels or Lucifer or the "government of God". It has absolutely everything to do with Jesus living among us, taking on humility and the role of a servant, living in a physical human body and defeating death at the cross. Notice in verse 6 where it says Jesus is the very nature of God (who else has God's nature?!) How can he become exalted if he's already God? His human self was what became exalted and now sits at the right hand of God. Hec, I would tell SDA's to actually read the chapter around the one itsy bitsy little verse. It's amazing what you can learn! And please tell them from me that Ellen is full of it.  Leigh Anne | ||
| Patallen Registered user Username: Patallen Post Number: 27 Registered: 7-2010  |
It seems to be in the context of Jesus leaving heaven garbing Himself with the robe of humanity, taking on the role of a servant to save us. Because of this God the Father exalted Him. Personally, unless I am missing something, I don't see a correlation with EGWs statement. Below is the Amplified version of Phil. 2:6-9 and Acts 2:29-36 (NIV); Heb. 2:9 (NIV) Phil. 2:6-9 6 Who, although being essentially one with God and in the form of God [ possessing the fullness of the attributes which make God God], did not think this equality with God was a thing to be eagerly grasped or retained, 7 But stripped Himself [of all privileges and rightful dignity], so as to assume the guise of a servant (slave), in that He became like men and was born a human being. 8 And after He had appeared in human form, He abased and humbled Himself [still further] and carried His obedience to the extreme of death, even the death of the cross! 9 Therefore [because He stooped so low] God has highly exalted Him and has freely bestowed on Him the name that is above every name, Also, Acts 2:29-36 NIV 29 "Brothers, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31 Seeing what was ahead, he spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to the grave, nor did his body see decay. 32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact. 33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said, "'The Lord said to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand 35 until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet."' 36 "Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ." Hebrews 2:9 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone Pat | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6446 Registered: 9-2006  |
As full of 'it', as 'it' can git Of the Bible she didn't know whit She made up her own rules The broke them all, and blamed it on her crystal ball. She took the words from other bands Then claimed that God covered it with his hand She borrowed this and she borrowed that Wrote some books, made out like a fat rat Back and fourth a time or two Across the country, she flew, she flew Pretty soon she had a following And in her 'it' they went a wallowing So that is the tale of that old shrew I hope you like it, I wrote 'it' for you | ||
| Patallen Registered user Username: Patallen Post Number: 29 Registered: 7-2010 |
River, I absolutely love it!  Pat | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3301 Registered: 10-2004 |
River, Now you just need to record yourself rapping it and upload it to Youtube!  Jeremy | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3302 Registered: 10-2004 |
Hec, As the others have already pointed out, the context is the incarnation/life/death/resurrection/ascension of Jesus. It has nothing to do with the "pre-creation" scenario that EGW had, or with His essential nature. Jeremy | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1202 Registered: 3-2009 |
Thanks. Hec | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1741 Registered: 6-2006 |
What I'd like to know is, how did Ellen know what Satan or the angels personally felt? How did she know there was contention? Was she there? I can't think of any prophet in the Bible who recorded thoughts or feelings of spiritual beings like Ellen did. Isn't that odd? She even knew what God and Jesus were thinking. If you ask me, I think someone was exalting herself... (Message edited by grace_alone on August 02, 2010) | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 865 Registered: 12-2007 |
I think you are EXACTLY right. How dare she presume to know the very thoughts of God ?!!! Now,,,, as for her knowing the toughts of Satan.... since I think she was in closer communication with him.. just maybe .... | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11504 Registered: 12-2003  |
River--I agree with Jeremy's suggestion..you need to record yourself rapping that verse! By the way, I think we will see that EGW seemed to get a lot of her scenarios and ideas and ceremonies in her pre-creation and heavenly visions from Mormonism and/or Masonry. Bottom line, Adventism is unbelievably well-crafted, giving us just enough confusion and conflicting statements and almost-right-sounding stuff that we sort-of zone out and accept really heretical ideas without really knowing either how we got them or how to defend OR refute them. As a friend of mine wrote to me today, EGW is able to write a paragraph that sounds oh-so-evangelical, and then in the next paragraph she has really unbiblical claims...and it's all a bit illogical and disorienting, and before we know it, we aren't really paying attention, we're a bit confused, and we sort-of follow blindly because it seems right. It's like hypnotism, my friend suggested...the back and forth of "gospel-sounding" and "heresy-revealing", back and forth, back and forth...and it leave readers and hearers open to deception and brainwashed and deceived. I thought that was a really good analogy... Colleen | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 595 Registered: 2-2003  |
As some of you have said, this passage is about the "humiliation" followed by the "exaltation" of Christ, with specific emphasis on his incarnation and his death on the cross as preceding his resurrection and ascension. There is no way it can have anything to do with some prehistoric scene in heaven. Christ humbled himself and was exalted, in contrast to Lucifer in Isaiah 14: 12 ff. who exalted himself and was humbled. This is perfectly compatible with Evangelical teaching. By the way, on a slightly different tack, can anyone tell me how SDAs understand "kenosis" (because I guess it is not the same way as Evangelicals do)? In Phil 2: 7 it says, "He emptied himself" (ekenosen heauton), and there has been a lot of theological debate on what that actually means. I know this, as I have taught it at Bible College in the Christology course. The most widely accepted Evangelical theory is that in the incarnation, Jesus never ceased to be God ("being in very nature God"), but that the human nature was added to his divine nature. So since the incarnation, Jesus is one person with two natures (Creed of Chalcedon, fifth century). So then kenosis (self-emptying) means that, "Jesus renounced the right to exercise his divine attributes independently of the Father's will". (Evangelical definition). So, he was always God, he retained all his divine attributes, but nevertheless was totally submitted to the Father, and never acted as God independently. May sound a bit complicated, but that version seems to fit the Biblical facts the best. So, back to my question, from what I have gleaned here, the SDA version is not the same as this, is it? I know this is a bit heavy but can anyone help? Adrian | ||
| Cloudwatcher Registered user Username: Cloudwatcher Post Number: 132 Registered: 5-2009 |
I'd like to chime in and vote for River to rap and upload to youtube. | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 1137 Registered: 7-2004  |
I think the SDA version of "emptying Himself" is becoming like a human so much that He didn't use any divine powers that we can't use (with the Holy Spirit), and He didn't have any advantage we don't have (with the help of the Holy Spirit). | ||
| Patallen Registered user Username: Patallen Post Number: 34 Registered: 7-2010 |
Doc, I am in agreement with Raven. Following are a few paragraphs from the book Salvation By Faith and Your Will by Morris Venden (an SDA pastor) and published by the Review and Herald Publishing Association: "Some people have argued that Jesus had an advantage because of His divinity, that He used His divine nature to live His perfect life on earth. But I would like to suggest that Jesus might have been at a disadvantage because He could not use His inherent divinity. And if Jesus lived His victorious life by relying solely on the Father, then, through Him, all the power of Heaven is at our disposal too, and we can have victories the way that Jesus had." p 83 "Jesus life is the greatest example of total, absolute surrender, of submission by His own choice, as He placed Himself under the control of the Father." p. 84 "Of course, Jesus was born different. He had a sinless human nature, the same as Adam had before his fall, concerning propensity or tendency to sin. Therefore, it was natural for Jesus to be good. I was born with a sinful nature, and it's natural for me to be bad." p. 86 "But Jesus did not rely upon, nor did He use, the divine part of His nature to live His perfect life. Remember He said, "I can of mine own self do nothing" If He had been talking about possibilities or potential, then it would have been an inaccurate statement." p. 86 "So what was the real issue in the temptation? We often say appetite, and of course it was involved here, but that was not the primary one at all. The fundamental issue centered on Jesus' doing something on His own, good or bad, using His inherent divinity instead of relying on God. Satan tempted Him to prove His own divinity, to do it by Himself, independent of His Father. And Jesus could have used His own power, but He came to earth to show us how to surrender our own strength and rely upon God's instead..." p. 87 Pat | ||
| Yenc Registered user Username: Yenc Post Number: 261 Registered: 6-2008 |
Let's apply a little deductive reasoning here: We know that EGW's messages didn't come from God: They were contradictory to God's inspired Word; they subtracted from and added to the Word; they were stolen from other writers; etc. So, if they didn't come from God's sources, where might they have come from? Who else might have had a vested interest in what she said? Who was the original liar with an unbroken history of lies in his own self-interest? Who else would have wanted us to believe Jesus was not the eternal, holy Being worthy of our adoration and worship? Who else is working like crazy to this day to discredit Jesus? Who would like us to believe Jesus came here as an ordinary mortal? Who else wants us to think Jesus was no more than what we are or can be? We are left with only one conclusion: Satan has an agenda, and he's working like crazy to get mankind to accept it. Anyone who echoes his lies is one of his tools, no matter what claims are made of "prophetic gifts," "inspiration," or "divine revelation." Only the "double-bladed sword" (Heb 4:12) can cut through these spurious claims, and only the "whole armor of God" (Eph.6:12-17) can protect us! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11513 Registered: 12-2003 |
Adrian, I agree with Raven and Pat above. As an Adventist I believed that Jesus wasn't at liberty to use His divine attributes for his own advantage. It was never really explained to me why he could use His omniscience to know what people thought and to disappear from a crowd when about to be stoned, but overall, the idea was that Jesus was limited by humanity so He could be our example of how we, too, could live a sinless life by depending on the Father. Even the Morris Venden quotes above (which disagree with EGW, by the way, who clearly wrote that Jesus had to succeed in resisting the temptation of "appetite" in the wilderness in order to succeed where Adam failed and that if He didn't, the salvation of man would have been derailed because Jesus would have failed to be the second Adam) reveal that underlying EVERYTHING is the deep void caused by disbelief in "spirit." Venden, even though saying Jesus had a sinless human nature, does not understand that to be a spiritual reality. He says it just means He had not "propensity" to sin (a word EGW loved...and it basically meant inherited or congenital predispositions to sin). Jesus didn't just have no "propensity" to sin; He had an eternally living spirit, never disconnected from God (which also meant from His own divinity). Of COURSE He had no sin! But for Venden, it's all physical-based. Your explanation of kenosis is very clear, and it is definitely NOT how I understood it as an Adventist. Moreover, we were taught in school and other places that Jesus eternally forfeited omnipresence when He took on humanity. His body, we were taught, means that never, ever again can He be omnipresent. He forfeited one of the attributes of God forever. Body trumps spirit, clearly. Colleen | ||
| Patallen Registered user Username: Patallen Post Number: 37 Registered: 7-2010 |
Colleen, As always, your post is right on target. They have so many different beliefs and interpretations depending on who you speak with. Utterly confusing aka Babylon. I'll forever remember the statement in The Desire of Agesp. 753, "Satan with his temptations wrung the heart of Jesus. The Saviour could not see through the portal of the tomb. Hope did not present to Him His coming forth from the grave a conqueror, or tell Him of His Father's acceptance of the sacrifice. He feared that sin was so offensive to God that Their separation was to be eternal." Pat |
