| Author | Message | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11485 Registered: 12-2003  |
I've got a question—actually, I've got several. Looking back at Adventism, what has changed in your perception of salvation? How is biblical salvation different from what you thought it was in Adventism? What Adventist beliefs skewed your understanding of the gospel and hindered your being born again? What role did these three things play in your misunderstanding of and/or outright missing salvation: A. A different Jesus B. A disbelief in an immaterial human spirit C. a different gospel I'd love to have your input... Colleen | ||
| Sabbatismos Registered user Username: Sabbatismos Post Number: 10 Registered: 7-2010 |
B. and C. I really don't see now how SDAs can have true assurance of salvation without understanding that the human spirit is more than mere breath (air). How can they understand the significance of John 3??? And, yes, Adventism teaches a different gospel. When one doesn't understand that we are saved in our spirits apart from our works (physical manifestations), the gospel becomes skewed. We looked to our works to determine if we were saved (and works can and do fluxuate day by day) rather than having an understanding that salvation takes place in the spirit. We can have assurance that our spirits are "seated with Christ in the heavenly places" (Eph. 2) rather than looking to our flesh for any sort of "assurance." | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 404 Registered: 4-2007 |
I know your questions are aimed at those born into Adventism but I thought I would put my two cents worth anyway, my perspective as a convert to Adventism "How is biblical salvation different from what you thought it was in Adventism?" It's 100% God's will and by His grace, NOT my keeping and doing, grace vs. works. "What Adventist beliefs skewed your understanding of the gospel and hindered your being born again?" Their silence on the reality of my absolute helplessness due to my absolute sinfulness which correlated with their resounding silence on the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit. What role did these three things play in your misunderstanding of and/or outright missing salvation: A. A different Jesus. Jesus could have failed Having zero prior knowledge I swallowed it hook, line and sinker, for a while. However, even my shallow reading of scripture lead me to a different conclusion. Not knowing the source of this (what I know NOW is heresy) I passed off as a local anomaly and ignored. B. A disbelief in an immaterial human spirit. Death = zero existence I don't remember this being discussed . It was only after I left that I learned what Adventists actually believe. I figure the whole issue of what ultimately takes place will be resolved for me when I drop dead. C. a different gospel. The bad news: You can never say you are saved. The Investigative Judgment with a different Jesus. Again, this was never ever a topic, but bits of it floated to the top, especially the 'you can never say you are saved'. Of all the Adventist 'stuff' this was a major irritant for most of my 36 years as an member and the foremost cause of my chucking Adventism. John | ||
| Psalm107v2 Registered user Username: Psalm107v2 Post Number: 716 Registered: 10-2008  |
What has chanagedin my perception regarding biblical salvation? -Today I believe it is ALL of Christ. I knew I was a hopeless sinner but thought maybe I could rack up enough points to have my bad deeds outweigh my good ones. I basically believed a person could fall in and out of salvation several times a day. A different Jesus--My understanding of God was a modalistic view. Jesus'death was just an act of love-it really didnt' save-works i.e. perfection and Sabbath keeping did. Jesus the Sacrifice & High Priest accepted by the Father was not a part of my world view A disbelief in the human spirit----I did not understand that my spirit wars against my flesh. The struggle described in Romans 7 and victory of Romans 8 was foreign to me. As it is tied to soul sleep/annihalation I actually took "relief" in the idea that if I did not "make it" to heaven then at least my punishment would have a beginning and an end C A different gospel--I believed you had to have it right,be right and act right to please God i.e. pass the Investigative Judgment--that was the gospel I believed. The gospel I believe can be summarized in 1st Corinthians 15 Enoch | ||
| Martin Registered user Username: Martin Post Number: 120 Registered: 11-2008 |
Now I wonder if I had any idea of what "salvation" really is... Looking back, it all seems very confusing. There was a lot I didn't know, whether because I was simply fed on SDA ideas or because I didn't look for the real answers. But, for sure, my idea of "salvation" was something like this: if my heart was set on obeying God's will, He would value it. However, as I struggled with many temptations I felt that there was no way I could do it. So, basically, I sort of just hoped that whenever Jesus decided to come back, God would consider that I was "good enough" for Him to let me enter. I would say that what most affected me was how much it all depended on your performance. Whether it was what you ate and drank, what you did with your leisure time, what you did for church... It didn't help at all. Back then, Jesus was God but he could theoretically have failed... And He also came to give us an example. I didn't have a clear idea an example of what, but that was what I always heard. Yes, He died but I never got to really see the whole meaning of the cross and the huge implications of His resurrection. He was somewhat abstract and never became someone real to me. And I used to make a complete differentiation between Him and the Father... Therefore, the Father was more important than Jesus. Definitely not the same Jesus I believe in now. Well, this wasn't on my mind very often before... So not sure how much it affected me. But I can see the implications of such disbelief. Many Biblical teachings started making much more sense once I began considering that we might have a spirit, especially in relation to our redemption. Many verses in the Bible seemed to point in that direction. Once again, performance... The investigative judgement, basically. Although at the time I didn't know exactly how far it went. I wouldn't have been able to explain the doctrine to anybody, because I didn't know it, but you get the general idea once you're inside. Interestingly, yesterday I heard my first SDA sermon in more than a year and a half... I looked in Youtube for videos of a church in Singapore that really helped me to get going to church again. Sincerely, that was the most "alive" SDA congregation I ever met. But the sermon, wow. It was all about how to be good witnesses to the world we need to, basically, keep all the "SDA commandments"... Food (e.g. vegemeat and soy milk are given by God), drink (e.g. avoid all prohibited exciting and chemical drinks), leisure time... And go to church, of course, because that's where we get trained to be good witnesses and God won't give us the Holy Spirit if we're not properly trained as the disciples were during the three years they were with Jesus. And, of course, Jesus didn't have any advantage over us. He left His divine nature in Heaven, thus he struggled with our sinful nature... Pretty sad how many people are influenced by such stuff. I hadn't heard a most boring, dull and Christ-less sermon in a really long time. Although when I still was an adventist I wouldn't have liked all the things he said, I wouldn't have been able to see what really was wrong in it. Thanks God for letting me see. I might have been seeing trees for a long time, but now I can see people moving around. | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1325 Registered: 7-2007 |
Welcome Sabbatismos! Yes Jesus IS our Sabbath-Rest now!  For my answers: A. I had a "Jesus" who didn't finish the atonement, so I thought it was up to me to "overcome in his strength" so I could pass the "investigative judgment". B. I don't know if that affected me really. C. Since the SDA church said you have to be "improving" (Ellen White said something about the "trend of the life"), it worried me a bit that I didn't see any "improvement" in my life. And since the Bible said to believers: "you have been saved"; I tried to believe that. I couldn't quite because Ellen White said nobody should believe that. Therefore I figured that the Bible was metaphoric in that area. (In fact, in all the areas where Ellen and the Bible disagreed, I figured the Bible and perhaps Ellen as well, were metaphoric. I figured that Ellen "explained" the Bible though.) I would try with all my might to get an assurance of salvation and would obtain a sort-of-assurance that would last at most a few minutes. | ||
| Patallen Registered user Username: Patallen Post Number: 23 Registered: 7-2010  |
What has changed my perception of salvation? I've learned that salvation is a NOW event and not a future one. I can say unashamedly and boldly that "I am saved!" That's something I was afraid to claim as an Adventist due to EGW's counsel. How is biblical salvation different from what you thought it was as an Adventist? As an Adventist and student of Adventist education since the 1st grade, I believed that Satan took on our sins and was led into the wilderness. Now I know and believe that Jesus did it ALL. When I think back, the teachings are so subtle because I've always believed that Jesus paid it all and even though I learned that Satan was supposedly the scapegoat, somehow I never connected it with him playing a part in my salvation by bearing my sins. Perhaps its because I was really young when I learned it and never studied it for myself later. It makes me angry that Satan is placed on an equal basis with my Saviour. Don't get me started! What Adventist beliefs skewed your understanding of the gospel and hindered your being born again? The subtle teaching that we are saved by grace through faith PLUS works. I never felt good enough. I was always working and trying to measure my performance because after all, Mrs. White says that Jesus won't come until His character is perfected in us (paraphrased). I was sometimes afraid to go to sleep at night because I didn't know if all of my sins had been confessed. I wondered if Jesus had already come across my name in the judgment and if so, what was the verdict? I was afraid of the 'time of trouble' when supposedly I would be without an intercessor. I could go on and on BUT I just thank God for Jesus Who did it all just for me. The second BIG enlightenment for me was when I learned that SDA's are under the Old Covenant and claimed to be modern Israel. When I finally understood the covenants, I was done and had to walk away. What role did these three things play in your misunderstanding of and/or outright missing salvation? A. A different Jesus: He was always scrutinizing my every move and keeping record. WOW! Knowing that I am imperfect, it's like He was looking for ways to not save me. SDA's like to play the perfection trumpet. B. A disbelief in an immaterial human spirit: It was not until I read a book by Kenneth Hagin that I learned that because I am born again doesn't mean that my flesh is born again, just the spirit man. The body and spirit are at war. The body is still fleshly or carnal and it doesn't necessarily want to do what is right BUT the spirit is to have control or dominion over the body; the spirit is to be the authority. I discovered that my body is just the house I live in and the real me is the spirit man on the inside. I, too, also believed in soul sleep but now I know that the spirit doesn't die. C. A different gospel: What SDA's teach is not "Good News!" As soon as I am placed in the equation to be saved by what I do and don't do, that's BAD NEWS! As an SDA, believing that Jesus came, died and rose again just isn't enough. Pat | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11486 Registered: 12-2003 |
So interesting. Yes, what all of you are saying is confirming to me that I'm not "over-analyzing" this phenomenon. I want to hear more... I believe it's not possible to over-state the life and death eternal significance of Adventist doctrines, especially the "no spirit" and the fallible Jesus. Please keep the answers coming... Colleen | ||
| Cortney Registered user Username: Cortney Post Number: 137 Registered: 8-2006 |
I was only active with SDA for 4 1/2 years, I was not raised in the denomination but they for sure taught a different Gospel than the one I was taught in the Evangelical Free Church. I'm not addressing your question completely but a few things that got me was when I came to the realization that they deny specific Bible versus such as: Hebrews 9 and say that the 'wrong' word was used in translation, it actually is supposed to mean 'Holy Place', not Heaven itself, as I was taught. They focus on Daniel 8, they say 'what else could this prophecy be related to', so it must be as EGW confirmed, most commentaries often refer this verse to Antioch, it was 2300 actual days to the mark he was in reign, could this have been the actual prophecy? They have to text-proof the Bible to fit EGW's teachings, even if the verse is referring to something totally different. I came to the conclusion they worship the 'God of creation and the law' on sabbath, while I want to worship the "God of Jesus', "Jesus and His finished work' everday. Their Jesus is not 'Jesus of the Finished work and salvation' as I was taught. Their Jesus didn't accomplish anything on Calvary, that is if you believe in the IJ, their Jesus requires 'sacrifice' and not 'mercy', as I was taught the complete opposite. Their Jesus requires your works 'specifically sabbath', my Jesus wants your mind, heart, soul and you will enter 'His Rest', the rest of His finished work. The SDA Jesus, is not 'finished' yet, so they have no rest. The Bible tells us you have to 'enter that rest', to be saved, Adventist argue this, they have to deny this or deny EGW, I'm convinced even if God Himself told Adventist EGW was a false prophet, they would deny, deny, deny. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 8379 Registered: 3-2004  |
1. How is biblical salvation different from what you thought it was in Adventism? In adventism there were things I had to do and even then I would not know I was saved until Jesus came when he was finished with the IJ. The Bible tells me I am saved by faith alone in Christ alone (John 3:16, 17). 2. What Adventist beliefs skewed your understanding of the gospel and hindered your being born again? EGW who told us not to say we are saved. I did not learn I had a dead spirit that is brought to life when I accept Jesus and His death/resurrection. Never learned this in adventism. 3. What role did these three things play in your misunderstanding of and/or outright missing salvation: A. A different Jesus I was taught Jesus was Michael the archangel. I was taught Jesus would not help me if was not keeping the sabbath. The atonement was not complete at the cross. B. A disbelief in an immaterial human spirit I knew nothing about an immaterial human spirit. When I read the NT in 2004 I learned Jesus was leaving a Counselor with us who would teach us all things. C. a different gospel The gospel was always about the sabbath, the IJ and working my way into heaven. There were things I HAD to do to have salvation and I would not know if I had it until Jesus came after the IJ. I would not know it before then. It was always about the end time events and was scary. It was not about the birth, life, death and resurrection of Jesus. Now I know it is all about Jesus. Diana L | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 2060 Registered: 4-2000  |
The true believer is busy working out what God has worked in (Phil. 2:12-13). The doctrines of grace promote holy living. Holiness is not an end in itself, but serves the greater glory of God. The fact that God is sovereign means that all things (including our sufferings) serve to fulfill His ultimate purpose in bringing glory to Himself. Jesus frankly told His disciples, "In this world you will have trouble" (John 16:33). When trouble comes, the true believer assumes from the outset that God is still in control and that He will accomplish His good purpose in the end. Therefore, every affliction is an opportunity for submission to God's good and perfect will. On the other hand, our fallen will is certainly in no position to desire God. "So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God who has mercy" (Romans 9:16 ESV). Indeed, salvation is a gift to be received, not a goal to be achieved. It's all about Him! Knowing this fact gives us a greater doxology as well. It is impossible to be jealous for God's glory without having equal passion for correct doctrine, because correct doctrine is what preserves the graciousness of the Gospel. In the New Testament, there is a constant concern for sound doctrine. From the time of the apostles, the Church has been in constant danger to succombing to the counterfeit grace of a false gospel. The God who is sovereign in grace is sovereign over all. For where we are not consciously relying on God, there we shall inevitably be found relying on ourselves. Someone rightly stated that, "Discernment is not knowing the difference between right and wrong. It is knowing the difference between right and almost right." As you have likely noticed already, this post is about the sovereignty of God--a message greatly missing in SDA Christology and soteriology. In profound gratitude for His amazing, efficacious, and persevering grace, Dennis Fischer | ||
| Martinc Registered user Username: Martinc Post Number: 152 Registered: 9-2006 |
Excellent discussion! In my case, I was doubly deceived. Until 4 years ago I believed I was completely "over" Adventism, and that as a liberal Christian I was too sophisticated to believe any of the 28 fundamentals. I had strayed in and out of agnosticism over the years, partly to feel smart, and partly as an effort to ward off those old Adventist ideas. My mental shelves were crowded with the idols of psychology and philosophy, but hidden in my mental closets, there lurked the Adventist elemental spirits, and they had a lot of power over me! But I thought, "If I don't believe in anything too strongly, none of it can hurt me, and I will be free." This was all a futile exercise in self-deception. So to answer questions A and B, I believed salvation was a rather impersonal affair in which we had to take the initiative, develop good habits, and eventually God might be willing to call me His own. Sure, Christ gives us his righteousness, but it's up to me to hang on to it. Frankly, salvation might be something I wouldn't like after all, so God needs to make it more attractive. In Adventism I had seen how very unattractive salvation can be, with all its rules and a theology which filled me with uncertainty--although I was afraid at least some of it might be true. So, I hedged my bets by looking elsewhere for truth. This was all so vain. The niumber one doctrine of Adventism that I kept believing and filled me with fear was the "State of the Dead." After my last breath, there would be nothing, and maybe nothing forever. God really had no control of my destiny, and I didn't either. This blended well with my agnosticism and confirmed the ultimate hopelessness of life. All the "right people" believed this, so I thought. Then one night I stared at the computer screen reading John 5:24, and heard the voice of the Son of God in these words, "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life." Three things hit me in one big wave. First, this was personal, He was speaking to me right now in these words, inviting me to eternal life. Two, I had eternal life now, and would never lose it, no matter what happened to this pathetic body. Three, all those fears from Adventism were exposed and defeated. There was no "state of the dead," I was now alive forever. Fear of judgment was gone: I was judged and already passed it, He said so. Here, He was taking control of my future, He promised, and that was good enough. What liberation to be so utterly wrong about everything! Martin C | ||
| Gorancroatia Registered user Username: Gorancroatia Post Number: 29 Registered: 6-2010 |
Biblical salvation different from what I thought it was in Adventism was major in my response to God, in Adventism I was also in the White lie and falsehood, and now I am honest to God. Open to be saved or damned, but in Adventism I was in constant fear of not doing the right thing. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3295 Registered: 10-2004  |
Martin C, Wow, all I can say to that is Hallelujah! Thanks for sharing your story. Jeremy (Message edited by jeremy on July 29, 2010) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11495 Registered: 12-2003 |
Oh, Martin--your story makes me feel like crying. You know, I didn't have the whole "state of the dead" thing as analyzed as you did. I would never have called myself "agnostic" because I wanted to be a "True believer". But now, the more my deeply indoctrinated Adventist worldview unravels and is replaced by biblical REALITY, the more I am certain that the state of the dead theory we believed is the underlying "unifying theory of everything" that holds Adventism together. I'm totally clear now why, after people get over being shocked that we are free from the elemental spirits of seasons and times in the form of a supposed eternal Sabbath, Adventists dig in their heels on the issue of state of the dead. In fact, from where I stand, it almost seems as if this doctrine is harder to let go than the Sabbath. To me, this deep attachment to believing one is only a body without a soul or a spirit is the clearest thumbprint of evil in the whole construct of Adventism—with the exception of Satan as scapegoat. Spirit doesn't end--and Adventists have equated "eternal" with "immortal," saying only God is immortal, so of COURSE we can't exist after we die, and of COURSE hell burns people up. But human spirits are mortal--they are dead when God's life is not in them. This mortality, however, isn't non-existence. It is death, but it is not non-existent. Life, though, is the miracle of the new birth—it's what you experienced that night when you heard the Son of God calling you personally as you read John 4:25. "The body they may kill"--but our spirit will never die when it is indwelled by God's own Life! Adventists do not understand why they have such a visceral, deep attachment to the state of the dead. It is a spiritual attachment; Col 1:13 says we are all in the domain of darkness before God transfers us to His Son's kingdom. Ephesians 2:1-3 says before we have God's life, we are under the control of the spirit of wickedness that is at work in the children of disobedience. This is why it's so hard to consider giving up this doctrine. It's the deepest hook the evil one has put into the hearts of Adventists (and Jehovah's Witnesses, for that matter). It's the denial of the fact that God made us in His image. Instead, our prophetess made God in OUR image—-she attributed a body to the Father and re-drew Jesus as a man with sinful flesh like us. From where I stand, state of the dead is the underlying, shaping doctrine upon which all the rest of Adventism is built. Man is just physical...and so is the sanctuary in heaven, and so is sin, and so is Jesus... And by the by, did you ever consider that the Adventist Jesus is actually a levitical priest, not a priest in the order of Melchizedek? He wears (according to EGW) vestments like Aaron's; he performs "sanctuary functions" like an OT high priest; he even lays sins on the scapegoat (satan) like Aaron did. He is not a Melchizedek priest in Adventism; he's an Aaronic priest doing OT functions in a heavenly sanctuary! Oh, who else do you know who champions an Aaronic priesthood? If you answered Mormons, you'd be right... Colleen | ||
| Martinc Registered user Username: Martinc Post Number: 153 Registered: 9-2006 |
Colleen wrote about the "State of the Dead" as: A "'unifying theory of everything' that holds Adventism together." ...Harder to let go than even the Sabbath...You just might really be on to something here. The idea of spirit is so foreign to us, to me, that I am just getting a vague idea of what spirit is. You also reminded me: When I started reading Proclamation back in August of '06, I was most drawn to the articles on death and spirit. At the time, I just thought it was because I was afraid of death, and because my own mother had died less than two years before. Now however, am realizing there is much more at stake here in the state of the living. The wretched state of our own souls, and the immensity of the gift that the Son of God offers is hidden in the thick smoke of materialist unbelief with the SDAs and JWs. Finally, that "smoke" became unbreatheable. I was just reading in John 6 where people were following Jesus around the lake after he fed and filled them with physical loaves. They wanted more bread, greater signs, and a greater king than He. How like us. It's funny how in our SDA culture we always made such a fuss over our loaves of homemade bread and the supposed sermons they contained. Meanwhile, as we perfected our bread-making, the Bread of Life was waiting for the right time to give us Himself. He wants us to devour real life that we can't bake ourselves--the kind that won't ever perish. Martin C (Message edited by MartinC on July 29, 2010) | ||
| Michaelmiller Registered user Username: Michaelmiller Post Number: 12 Registered: 7-2010  |
I had some experience with Christianity prior to Adventism, so my perspective will differ with some here. (A) I already had some picture of A in my head before Adventism. I was mostly around moderate Adventists, so I was able to maintain some correct understandings of Jesus (for the most part anyway). I'm not saying that some things didn't creep in over time (they did). They just coexisted in an odd sort of way. (B) B wasn't taught a lot, so I guess it never really took root enough to make a difference. (C) C, on the other hand, was the most invasive. The gospel became obfuscated by the noise of the distinctive doctrines. It was after I started scrutinizing the doctrines that the simplicity of the gospel emerged. Following that, Christ returned to complete clarity. Michael | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 2062 Registered: 4-2000 |
Four Day Work Week Announced The new GC president, Ted Wilson, has announced a four-day work week at the General Conference headquarters to supposedly boost morale. They already had only a 4.5 day work week in order to prepare for the Jewish Sabbath on Fridays. Numerous local Conference offices have already gone to a four-day work week and some SDA publishing houses. Ironically, the Adventist tithe payers are often working more than one job and/or working overtime to make ends meet. It is very expensive to be a devout SDA member. With SDA tuition payments, tithing requirements, offerings to radio and TV ministries, local church expenses, building funds, Conference evangelism offerings, and magazine subscriptions, the typical Adventist family in the pew is highly stressed financially. Apparently, with a decreasing work load these days in SDA administrative offices and sales outlets, a four-day work week fits into their culture very comfortably. I have often wondered why the Adventist Book Centers are not routinely open for evening and Sunday customers (like typical religious book stores), but being it is not a typical business, they are not worried about the bottom line. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 594 Registered: 2-2003  |
Never having been an Adventist, my perspective will be different too, but the state of the dead thing is really significant, and affects a huge number of other doctrines. I am in England at the moment, and have just come back from a Christian camp, which was really great and hugely encouraging. I decided to bounce the idea of "body + breath = living soul" off some of my friends who were there, but we have not met up for a while. The response from Evangelicals is generally shocked horror, and where on earth do they get that from, and that is not what the Bible says, and how crazy is that, or something similar. I wonder sometimes if I am making too big a deal out of this, but probably not. It is really bad. Adrian | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 2223 Registered: 5-2007  |
Doc, The more you understand the Adventist concept of what we call "soul sleep" the more we see it is central to all their other cultic doctrines. Oriiginally, when I understood SDA doctrine as false, I only knew I had eternal security and knew that Jesus Christ was my sin bearer, my Scapegoat. I have been out of Adventism for over fifty years and there are still things I am unlearning. Fearless Phil |
