| Author | Message | ||
| Dljc Registered user Username: Dljc Post Number: 23 Registered: 7-2010 |
Luke 16: 13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon. 14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him. 15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God. 16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. 17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail. 18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery. Look at the bold text and compare it to the underlined text. How does the SDA church resolve the bold underlined text? I know they focus in on verse 17, but how do you overlook what is in the preceding verse? | ||
| Cortney Registered user Username: Cortney Post Number: 125 Registered: 8-2006 |
I was told verse 16 was in reference to ceremonial laws, and they used verse 17 to justify sabbath-keeping. I don't know how they resolve any of their beliefs, honestly. I think when a religion has to spend more time 'proving' or 'covering up' what they believe rather than simply following what the Gospel promotes they are no longer credible on any basis in terms of Christianity or just for the sake of being 'morally correct' . | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 536 Registered: 1-2006  |
Dljc I know you wanted to focus on v 16, and I agree with your emphasis. You are right, Adventists will focus on the heaven and earth part . . . In Matthew 5:18 similar words are quoted “Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.” The terms “heaven” and “earth” are used together repeatedly in apocalyptic literature in the old and new testaments to refer to the nation of Israel. The Israelites clearly understood that Jesus was telling them that until the old covenant law came to its end, they (the Israelites) were still under it. It was a simple way of explaining that the old covenant law would last about as long as old Israel would last. When the term “heaven and earth” is used, it is a symbolic way of referring to old Israel. There are quite a few texts that illustrate this symbolism, including Deut 32:1, Isa 51:13-16, Isa 1:2, Gen 37:9, 2 Pet 3:10 with Rev 21:10, Isa 65:15-17, Isa 66:22, and Rev 21:1,2, and more. This is hard to see at first glance. Biblical prophecy is given in symbolic language, and historical events are given in literal language. Not only Israel (heaven and earth) but the downfall of governments is represented by heavenly disturbances. Some more examples include Isa 34:4 (nations); Jeremiah 4:22-28 (Jews by Babylon); Ezekiel 32:17 (demise of Egypt). The Jews understood perfectly what Jesus meant. Bob | ||
| Dljc Registered user Username: Dljc Post Number: 24 Registered: 7-2010 |
I agree, they use verse 17 to justify Sabbath keeping. I have a Jewish friend that I ask questions from time to time. I asked him if there was a law that requires assembly of worship on the Sabbath, he said there isn't one. I asked my friend and he can't find a command either. What I do see is that they equate the Sabbath with church service, and that's not what the Sabbath is. What my friend doesn't realize is, this is how "they know" he's observing the Sabbath. He has to be seen doing it. | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 537 Registered: 1-2006 |
Dljc So if these texts mean what they appear to say, then "heaven and earth" did come to an end, if not when the veil was torn, for sure in AD70. This was another adventist proof text that fails under closer examination. Bob | ||
| Dljc Registered user Username: Dljc Post Number: 25 Registered: 7-2010 |
Thanks Bobj, I'll look deeper into that.  | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1176 Registered: 3-2009 |
Meeting on Saturday? How about Lev. 23:3 ‘For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a sabbath of complete rest, a holy convocation. You shall not do any work; it is a sabbath to the LORD in all your dwellings. (NASB) On Israel as "heaven and earth", I am totally lost. The verses given don't give me any clue that heaven and earth refer to Israel. Hec | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 538 Registered: 1-2006 |
Dljc I don't mean to drag this out, and someday I hope to learn to write clearly! The term "heaven and earth" was a metaphor. God referred to Israel by that term. Hope you have a pleasant weekend! Bob | ||
| Martinc Registered user Username: Martinc Post Number: 150 Registered: 9-2006 |
Hi, just to jump in with a thought. There's a theme throughout the prophecies to Israel that connects the fixed celestial motions with God's sure promises to them. Jer. 31:35,36: "This is what the Lord says, he who appoints the sun to shine by day, who decrees the moon and stars to shine by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar--the LORD almighty is his name: 'Only if these decrees vanish from my sight,' declares the LORD, 'will the descendants of Israel ever cease to be a nation before me.'" (NIV) Of course, this statement is made right after the great new covenant statement of a new heart and total forgiveness, in that same chapter. I'm trying to connect these thoughts, but it seems very significant that heaven and earth's "decrees" are tied to Israel's and our futures as signs or guarantees. So in Matthew five it seems that Jesus is again tying us in with heaven and earth. How do we connect these things? Martin C | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 539 Registered: 1-2006 |
Hi Martin I've wondered about Matt 24 in this same context! There's an 84 minute video on full preterism that deals with some of this, the clouds in particular, also mentioned in Rev 1:7 (coming in clouds and every eye will see Him). Clouds were mentioned in the OT in apparently symbolic language. I think preterism trades one set of questions for another, but I'm taking a closer look just for the sake of knowing more about it. I'll see if I can find a link for the video, if anyone is interested. Bob | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 540 Registered: 1-2006 |
Martin Here it is--hope the link works. http://vimeo.com/6815887 The video is entitled "Who's Kidding Who" RC Sproul dedicated one of his recent books to one of these key preterest Bible students, I think. The video also quotes CS Lewis in a very candid commentary on the delay of Christ. Bob | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 541 Registered: 1-2006 |
Correction The title is "You've Got to be Kidding" really. no kidding. | ||
| Christo Registered user Username: Christo Post Number: 232 Registered: 2-2008 |
How about the law referring to the books of Moses. Then think about what Jesus said, " Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. Basically you cannot stop Gods plan of salvation. Chris | ||
| Christo Registered user Username: Christo Post Number: 233 Registered: 2-2008 |
Also notice how in scripture the word law is sometimes capitalized, and sometimes not. I've wanted to detect the pattern, my friend says that he thought that only when Law is capitalized was it referring to the covenant at Sinai. Chris | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 730 Registered: 8-2008 |
Also, note how verse 18 gives an understanding of divorce that is different than that found in the Law. In the Torah, a man could divorce a woman for any reason. Once one understands what the Jews meant by "the Law," one realizes that Jesus isn't simply talking about the Ten Commandments, or even the other 603 commandments, but the entire first five books of the Bible. Every truly Christian group confirms that these books are inspired, are part of the Christian canon, and out to be read by every Christian who can read them. Nothing will pass away from the Torah until the end. For instance, Paul uses the Torah repeatedly in his epistles to demonstrate truths about Jesus (for instance, he uses it frequently in Galatians, and as well he uses the Torah in Romans to show that Abraham was justified by faith). Thus, the Torah will always stand as a witness showing that Jesus is the Messiah, that He fulfilled the several Messianic prophecies in the Torah, that He became the curse promised in the Law (Gal. 3:10-14), and that He thus freed us from the condemnation of death. That is not the same thing as saying that the Torah's commands still have jurisdiction over the New Covenant Christian. All Christians agree that at least some of the 613 commands of the Torah are no longer binding. But the Torah's commands are an all-or-nothing sort of thing. They constitute the Old Covenant Law and cannot be sliced or diced. To slice and dice them into moral, ceremonial, and civil components is to say that a jot or tittle CAN pass away from them. If one jot or tittle CANNOT pass away from the Torah, including its commands, than Jesus either means we have still to keep every single of the 613 commands (including the sacrifices, the tassels on our garments, and what-have-you), or it means He is saying something else. It is more consistent with the entirety of Scripture to say that a jot and tittle CANNOT pass away from the Torah, including its commands, but also that because of Jesus Christ we are no longer under the jurisdiction of the commands of the Old Covenant, contained within the Torah. Instead, the Christian is under the jurisdiction of the New Covenant, and his behavior is governed by the Spirit (2. Cor. 3). There is no capitalization in the original Greek. (Message edited by bskillet on July 24, 2010) | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 542 Registered: 1-2006 |
Christo and Bskillet Good points, and I want to make it clear that I am not endorsing preterism! But if I understand preterism, it depends on the Book of Revelation being written before AD70. I think they would suggest that anything in the NT written before AD70 would have been fulfilled then, including the words of Jesus. I think Ellen White picked up on the mainline view that Jesus blended the prophecies of the destruction of Jerusalem with the end of the world. That does not make it right or wrong, but that is the view with which I'm the best acquainted. But then we have Jesus stating clearly that this generation shall not pass . . . I've always thought that it was the generation (at the end) that finally saw the fulfillment of all these literal signs in the heavens. The Jews living prior to AD70 are seeing this thru the lens (perhaps?) of their apoclyptic mindset, and arriving at totally different understanding--at least that's what I think the preterests are saying. From the little bit I've read, even though they believe that the coming of the Lord occurred in about AD70 (my first question was . . . are we in hell?!!!) they believe that we experience the new birth, our bodies eventually die, we go to be with the Lord, and the earth goes on and on. This does not have a good feel to it! I frankly don't like it, and Bible students say that it really replaces one set of questions for another set. But it is gaining attention, and I'd need to learn more about it before I could endorse it. But how do we really deal with Jesus words about "this generation shall not pass?" Bob | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 543 Registered: 1-2006 |
Hi friends Here's the article on heaven and earth passing away . . . http://www.tentmaker.org/books/heavenandearth.htm And one more question, too. How are we to understand Daniel 2, the stone that grows and fills the whole earth? Is the stone the church? Is this happening now? Wouldn't this fit the preterest view--not the view we grew up with as adventists? Again, I'm not being confrontational at all, just a friendly discussion and maybe I'll learn something! Bob | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 399 Registered: 4-2007 |
I watched the video and I have to agree "This does not have a good feel to it!" I'm left with 'this is it, this is as good as it gets? or It's up to us to turn this hell into heaven? These verses came to mind Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. Quite obviously these passages can not be applied to any period during the past 2000 years. John | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 731 Registered: 8-2008 |
The stone that hits the statue is Jesus Christ, and it grows to fill the whole earth as His kingdom. It is Him and His Kingdom. | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 544 Registered: 1-2006 |
Brent Yes, let's say this is the correct interpretation. But when does this happen or when did this happen? Is it gradual? I'm not expecting an answer nor challenging you. In this same context, I've wondered about the comment in Hebrews that Christ is now seated at the right hand of the Father while his enemies are made His footstool. Could this process be going on now? To be honest, I'd always assumed that the stone in Dan 2 filled the earth quite suddenly, to fit with my presuppositions on the coming of Christ. Bob |
