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| Psalm107v2 Registered user Username: Psalm107v2 Post Number: 713 Registered: 10-2008  |
For some reason I feel compelled to share part of an ongoing conversation I have had with a fellow through Youtube. I believe his name is Enoch too as his screen name is goodoldenoch. (we've jumped into talking without exchanging names) I've only put in a portion but it is lengthy. if you read it hang in there and I hope you're blessed. Goodoldenoch: Ok... maybe we should first define what the 'Atonement' is? I am sure that neither you nor I wish to 'assume' that we understand it both correctly... (maybe we do?)... In other words, we should not think that whenever anything is discussed, the meaning of that word, whether justification, sanctification, etc... is understood by all involved in the discussion; it would be best if I were to get also you understanding of it, wouldn't you agree? I see in the O.T., that it appears 69X, and only once in the N.T. (Rom. 5:11). כּפר H3722 (Strong's) kâphar kaw-far' A primitive root; to cover (specifically with bitumen); figuratively to expiate or {condone} to placate or cancel: - {appease} make (an) {atonement} {cleanse} {disannul} {forgive} be {merciful} {pacify} {pardon} to {pitch} purge ({away}) put {off} (make) reconcile (-liation). καταλλαγή G2634 (Strong's) katallagē kat-al-lag-ay' From G2644; exchange (figuratively {adjustment}) that {is} restoration to (the divine) favor: - {atonement} reconciliation (-ing). What would you understand the 'Atonement' is? What Biblical definition would you give it? Thank you Me: I agree with the definition you pulled from Strongs--mine is not unpacked yet. and the Biblical context places an emphasis on covering, appeasing/reconiliation Goodoldenoch: I checked my Bible program and it showed 69X in the O.T., and once in the N.T.; that one is found in Rom. 5:11. Also, in the O.T. there was a need for 'Atonement' for articles of the Sanctuary. Since Jesus is called "the Lamb of GOD", referring to the sacrificial lamb that was used in the Sanctuary, then it would only follow that the rest of the 'Atonement' should follow the plan laid out in the earthly Sanctuary, which Hebrews chapters 8 through 10 speak of very clearly telling us that there is a heavenly Sanctuary of which Christ is our High Priest. So, how was then atonement completed by just the death of the sacrifice? According to the Scriptures, that was just the first 'stage' in the redemption plan of man... in the salvation of man... that is why the Sanctuary shows a whole plethora of events, if I may use that phrase, to reveal the depth of how GOD separates sin from the sinner - you and me. Me: Romans 5:11 shows that we have received (past tense) reconciliaton. It was done at the cross and there is no "phase 2" in the matter. John 19:30 the debt has been paid in full-this is a legal pronouncement-again past tense, nothing 1800 years later. Jesus is the lamb of God who took away the sin debt of the world. When He said it is finished that meant the whole atonement-no further debt satisfaction is needed. The temple curtain was torn in 2 which signified we have access to the Most Holy Place where the Father "resided", the end of sacrifice-because atonement/reconcilliation/debt repayment had been made. Note, to use the argument as the sanctuary is on earth so in heaven then heavenly sanctuary only has 1 compartment. Note Jesus sat down on the right hand of the father. The OT clearly shows that God resided in the most holy place. God did not move to the Holy Place as EGW says and then 1844 years Father and Son are ushered in on chariot into the Most Holy Place. Jesus sat down when He went to the side of the Father in the Most Holy Place because the task of atonement was complete. Note Hebrews 10:11 & 12 are contrasted because the blood of animals could not satisfy(Heb 10:4) so the priests did the sacrifices over and over but Jesus sat down. Not unlike you or I after a long day of work sit down, but you and I have to get back up to work again. Jesus did not because the atonement was complete. He made a ONCE and For All atonement Heb 10:10 says we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. There it is those who have accepted Christ by faith are made HOLY once and for all. It's a done deal no investigative judgement. The only thing that happened in 1844 in heaven was what was happening after His ascension and Heb 10:14 telss us Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool-this verse is far from indicative of a closing/2nd/completion of atonement The Day of Atonement pointed to Jesus--I hope we can agree on that. Jesus was both the high priest and the sacrifice. The Day of Atonement was just that a day. It was not an 1800 year period. If we look to the DAy of Atonement on earth and contrast to what happened in heaven, then we see the Bible does not support a sacrifice one day and then another "completion" or phase or "application" of atonement happening later and certainly not thousands of years later. The high priest took the blood to the Mercy Seat (Most holy Place) which was God's throne. Again the torn temple shows the access to God and Jesus went directly to the Father at His ascension The investigative judgement has different spins depending upon which SDA one talks to but the idea of a newly applied atonement or pouring over the record books is spurious. Hebrews 10:17 says Then he adds: "Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more." God is not in the business of "bringing forth records of wrong deeds" of the people whom He has saved. Even in the OT He cast the believers sins into the depth of the sea. And removed them as far as the east is from the west in verse 18 the Holy spirit goes on to say "And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin" the sacrifice, the blood, the atonement of Jesus did not need a further application like paint over primer. He died and applied the blood. Verse 19-22 says Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. My friend, the believer from the time Hebrews was written right up until now can enter the Most Holy Place, through His sacrificed body. We can approach God with full assurance and our hearts are CLEANSED!!!!  I pray that God's cleansing power will be manifest in your life. I've spent a lot of time in Hebrews 10 and there is so much more but let me close with 1 John 2;2 He is the (singular) atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. There is no part 2 in the atonement. I look forward to chatting with you again ASAP Forgive the spelling errors and grammar but like I said I just feel compelled to share this. I will be providing him with the link to this issue of Proclamation Enoch | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 861 Registered: 2-2008  |
Hi Enoch, I think a link to the current issue of Proclamation is a great idea! I loved Russell Kelly's article "Does blood defile the tabernacle?". This is a must read for all Adventists. He laid it out so clearly that Christ's blood could not have defiled the heavenly sanctuary and then cleansed it. Praying that your friend has an open heart to understand what he is reading. vivian | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11478 Registered: 12-2003  |
Good work, Enoch! Yes, a link to this issue is good. Kelly's article really clarified things for me. It's so good. Also, Badenhorst's article on the scapegoat really explains the evolution of that doctrine in Adventism and shows clearly how wrong it is. Colleen | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 662 Registered: 5-2002 |
Interesting that his screen name "goodoldenoch" is the phrase Ellen White employed to describe a man she claimed to have seen in vision on a planet which Joseph Bates identified as Jupiter. " Then I was taken to a world which had seven moons. There I saw good old Enoch, who had been translated. . . . I asked him if this was the place he was taken to from the earth. He said, "It is not; the city is my home, and I have come to visit this place." He moved about the place as if perfectly at home. {Mar 368.5} | ||
| Bb Registered user Username: Bb Post Number: 735 Registered: 7-2004 |
Enoch, that was excellent! I know exactly how you feel about being compelled to share the conversation. It's like the forum is where there is understanding, and they will give you a little encouragement or even a critique if needed. I'm glad you shared with us. | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 851 Registered: 12-2007 |
I agree, I think this last issue of Proclamation is OUTSTANDING ! I only wished (once I got as far as Colleens article) that for the sake of any current SDA's who might get this issue, Colleens article would have appeared first in the issue.... only because I think it would have been a great warm up or starting place to spark interest for the rest :-) Francie |
