| Author | Message | ||
| Dljc Registered user Username: Dljc Post Number: 14 Registered: 7-2010 |
As I've talked with my friend he's brought up some of the different doctrines that the SDA church teaches. Do they have the same names as Christians have named them? For examples: Soul Sleep Doctrine Annihilation Doctrine When I'm talking to my friend, I name them accordingly as above to give him the names so that he can look them up if he wants to. I'm just curious if they are taught by the same name? If so what are the names of them? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11427 Registered: 12-2003  |
Actually, "soul sleep" is a colloquial term, not an "official" term. It's used internally all the time, but in print, I can't find it officially by that name. The Adventist doctrine of death is referred to as "the state of the dead". They use flowery sentences to describe it, but you need to understand that when Adventists use the term "soul", they are referring to the body with the life force in it, which, they say, is like electricity. Without life force, the body is dead; with life force, it's alive, and the person is the "soul". All this is explained in tortuous detail in their Seventh-day Adventists Believe book that states and explains their 28 Fundamental Beliefs. Similarly, they do not have a doctrine named annihilation, but they do teach that hell is not eternal, that people are burned up in the lake of fire. It is annihilation, but they don't name it that. In fact, the doctrine, or fundamental belief, that explains this notion is called "Death and Resurrection". They say the dead are unconscious—but as you read the doctrine it becomes clear that the dead do not exist. Internally, when Adventists talk about this, they believe God holds the memory of the dead in His memory, and the resurrection is when He recreates the dead. The SDA Believe book is clear that animals and humans are alike in that they have bodies plus life-force. At death, animals and humans both go into the ground; the life-force leaves the body. In actual truth, Adventists believe humans do not have souls. They have no immaterial spirit or essence that survives death. They are gone from existence, but the resurrection will bring them back from God's memory. The Lake of Fire lasts only as long as it takes to burn everything up. The wicked, they believe, will burn proportionally to their sins' severity; Satan will burn the longest. They state in their book that their punishment is for their sins. they never allude to the idea that their punishment is for rejecting the Sin Bearer. Colleen | ||
| Dljc Registered user Username: Dljc Post Number: 15 Registered: 7-2010 |
Thank you Colleen, that's interesting. I do have a copy of the 28 Fundamental Beliefs that my friend gave me to read and see if it seemed "ritualistic". He didn't ask me to show him the error in it, just if it was ritualistic. I know my friend has made some really strange comments that make him "feel better knowing this" type of thing. For example concerning death, it made him feel better to know his dead relatives wouldn't see what he had done in the past. I replied, I'm not worried about what they may have seen, I'm worried about what He saw! If my dead relatives are in heaven they understand just as He does(Romans 3:23). But because of what they believe it made him feel better about it. By the way, I have a copy of your Adventism vs. Christianity article on the Proclamation site. Very interesting stuff in there. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11434 Registered: 12-2003 |
Dljc, we were taught that it was a comfort that our dead relative couldn't see us sin. There was no thought that, if the dead were consciously with Jesus, they would see as He sees. They just believed that they could evaluate the theoretical fate of the dead in the light of physical reality. I remember distinctly thinking it seemed more comforting to ponder that they might be conscious with Jesus, but the "party line" was definitely that it was "a comfort" to know they couldn't see us down here sinning and failing. When you look at it, you realize that Adventists have absolutely no sense of spiritual life and new birth. They assume the living will be down here sinning in embarrassing ways that we wouldn't want Grandma to know, and they assume also that should the dead be aware, they would evaluate us in the same hopeless way Jesus was evaluating us in the investigative judgment. Every sin was being evaluated. Would the sinner confess or not? Would they have "pardon" written next to their name or not? Colleen | ||
| Yenc Registered user Username: Yenc Post Number: 202 Registered: 6-2008 |
Here are a few more terms SDAs apply to their distinctive doctrines: Rev. 19:10 says, "The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." SDA's false prophet, Ellen White, is called "The Spirit of Prophecy." (Could this usage be seen as blasphemy?) EGW is revered as a "continuing source of truth," "the lesser light leading to the greater light." In many cases, if there is a discrepancy between what the Bible says and what is written in EGW's writings, her writings prevail. SDAs refer to themselves as "The Remnant Church." While those two words are not used together in the Bible, they have taken the term from Revelation 12:17 to refer to the SDA Church. The doctrine that everyone, no matter how poor, must not only give offerings, but must also pay one tenth of their income directly to the church as tithe is called "Stewardship." If a member does not pay tithe, he is not allowed to hold church office, in some cases not even as a kindergarten Sabbath school teacher! The most egregious SDA doctrine is that of the "Investigative Judgment." It is an extremely complicated doctrine totally unsupported by the Bible, and contradictory to the Bible's doctrine of Christ's atonement. Yen | ||
| Yenc Registered user Username: Yenc Post Number: 203 Registered: 6-2008 |
Amost forgot another very important one! SDAs believe that the Old Testament injunctions against eating pork, shellfish, and certain other things are still valid; in fact they go even a few steps further, and urge vegetarianism. (Some even urge veganism, based on certain statements in the writings of EGW that say using milk and eggs can keep one from being taken to heaven!) The SDA Church also owns and supports a very extensive system of hospitals all over the world. These practices and many others are based on what SDAs call, collectively, "The Health Message." | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 576 Registered: 2-2003  |
Hi Yenc, In general theological circles, the Adventist doctrine of the intermediate state is also known as thnetopsychism, which comes from the Greek for soul-death. And the temporary nature of hell is referred to as conditional immortality. This means that as "eternal life is the gift of God", unbelievers do not have life, so they cease to exist. So immortality is conditional on salvation. This is based on the fundamentally incorrect assumption that life is the same as existence, and death means cessation of existence. But in Biblical use, this is not the case. Is calling EGW the Spirit of Prophecy blasphemous? Most likely. What about saying that Jesus was recreated from God's memory, and Satan is the final sin-bearer? Anyway... Interesting enough, also, the word "remnant" does not occur in the Greek of Revelation 12: 17 anyway, only in the KJV translation. The original has "the rest" or "the others." It appears to me that a number of Adventist distinctives can only be supported by verses which were incorrectly translated in the KJV, the most important being Daniel 8: 14. The original has "2300 evenings and mornings", which then cannot be made to fit into one day equals a year scenario. The word "day" does not occur. God bless, Adrian | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 577 Registered: 2-2003 |
Hi Colleen, The JWs I have talked to also stressed how comforting the idea of non-existence in death is, as we don't have to worry about our dead relatives burning in hell. They really feel positive about it. And they could not "see" that a recreated person is not the original either. I wonder why not, seems obvious to me, and most Evangelicals I have talked to. Personally, I find the idea of going into non-existence at death to be pretty unpleasant. Much rather be with Jesus. I'm glad the Bible doesn't teach it, so I don't have to believe it :-) Adrian | ||
| Yenc Registered user Username: Yenc Post Number: 204 Registered: 6-2008 |
Doc, You are absolutely right! I had forgotten to mention the 2300-day teaching and its evening-morning detail that changes the whole meaning SDAs attribute to it. Thanks for reminding me. As I was waking up this morning, I realized I had left out some other highly significant items. The "Investigative Judgment" teaching is part of what is generally called "The Sanctuary Doctrine." SDAs believe that when Jesus cried out, "It is finished!" He was not referring to the atonement, but only to His earthly ministry. At His ascension, He went to heaven, but He still had work to do. Here's where the heretical "Sanctuary Doctrine" with its "Investigative Judgment" comes in. In the early 1840's, a man named William Miller did a bunch of convoluted calculations involving totally unrelated historical events and eventually decided that Jesus' Second Coming would occur in 1843. When that date came and went, he went back to the drawing board. The second date he proclaimed also failed. Finally, he convinced thousands of sincere people that Jesus would definitely return on October 22, 1844. When Jesus once more did not come, most people gave up and returned to their normal lives. But a new doctrine was born the next morning. Another man claimed to have had a vision in which Jesus entered the Most Holy Place, the inner sanctum of the "Heavenly Sanctuary," to begin the "Investigative Judgment" that would settle the question of who would be saved and who would not. This core doctrine, totally unsupported by Scripture, is the weirdest doctrine of Adventism, and is still producing fear in their hearts that some forgotten, unforgiven sin will turn up to condemn them forever. That's why SDAs rarely if ever use the expression "saved" in referring to conversion. They do not believe they will know whether or not they are "saved" until they are actually taken to be with Jesus! For SDAs, giving up the "Sanctuary Doctrine" would involve a complete paradigm shift. They would lose confidence in EGW, and thus in many other distinctive doctrines that are justified only by her writings. I must add, however, that many SDAs harbor doubts they cannot express or even admit to themselves, because the whole SDA lifestyle sets them apart from mainstream Christianity. They find their identity within the church, rather than in their relationship to Jesus. And it is this that marks the denomination as a cult! | ||
| Believer247 Registered user Username: Believer247 Post Number: 135 Registered: 3-2009 |
The "Health Message" is also called "The Right Arm of the Gospel." | ||
| Nowisee Registered user Username: Nowisee Post Number: 445 Registered: 5-2009 |
Believer247, It looks like Glendale Adventist Medical Center in SoCal isn't teaching the Health Message anymore as they serve not only coffee in their cafeteria, but lots and lots of MEAT! Their Right Arm appears to be broken! It was known in days past as Glendale Sanitarium and my mom remembers that the vegetarian food was so well prepared there that they had an elegant dining room where many SDAs came to eat Sabbath lunch after church. (H-m-m-they must have pre-paid so they wouldn't be breaking the 4th commandment!) | ||
| Nowisee Registered user Username: Nowisee Post Number: 446 Registered: 5-2009 |
Dljc & Colleen & Doc--the state of the dead thing is such a confusing jumble that I thank you for your discussion/clarification re sda teachings on it. | ||
| Dljc Registered user Username: Dljc Post Number: 20 Registered: 7-2010 |
I got a kick out of that Nowisee. I just read where an SDA member isn't allowed to handle (/have in their possession) any more than tithes and offering on the Sabbath. (Back to the topic)
That is what I've seen too Yenc. | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1163 Registered: 3-2009 |
Dljc, could you give reference to where you read that SDAs cannot handle more than tithes and offerings on the Sabbath? I've never heard of that before. Thanks. Hec | ||
| Nowisee Registered user Username: Nowisee Post Number: 449 Registered: 5-2009 |
Wow, Yenc, that is a tremendous statement, quoted above!! Thank you for articulating it so well. It's so absolutely true, and I needed it stated that way--it made a huge impact on me when I read it. | ||
| Yenc Registered user Username: Yenc Post Number: 210 Registered: 6-2008 |
Hec, I plead guilty! I was the one who posted that we were not allowed to handle any money on Sabbath except tithes and offerings. It was in the thread, "Indoctrinated about the Sabbath," my post on 7/16/10 at 4:28 pm. I was explaining the Sabbath-keeping customs of my family, not stating a rule that was incumbent on all church members. I probably should have made that clearer. I'm not aware of Dljc or anyone else mentioning this particular custom. | ||
| Yenc Registered user Username: Yenc Post Number: 211 Registered: 6-2008 |
Dljc and Hec I always thought the custom of pre-paying for one's Sabbath meals at SDA institutions to be nit-picky on several levels. It was okay for the cafeteria workers to serve us? and get paid for it? That's work. A pre-paid ticket instead of U.S. currency? That's just plain phony. None of it is logical. Yet that was definitely the routine in many SDA institutions. Nobody who examines SDA customs like this can walk away without shaking their head in bewilderment. | ||
| Joyfulheart Registered user Username: Joyfulheart Post Number: 717 Registered: 10-2006 |
One of my first aha moments about the Sabbath was during the prophecy seminar on a "Super Saturday" when we heard three sermons and were served lunch at the hotel. All of the hotel workers were no doubt not only being paid, but also working for Sabbath keepers who were teaching us of our need to keep the Sabbath. It made no sense then and still doesn't. I always wondered about the meals served on Sabbath at camp meeting, too. There were plenty of families that had tons of extra already prepared food. Tickets did have to be purchased ahead of time, but workers were still needed in the cafeterias. Why in the world didn't those believers help other believers to keep the 4th commandment during camp meeting a time of special consecration and obedience to God? Why couldn't believers have prepared food so as to not cause those workers to have to work? Just remembering - and so grateful for my freedom in Christ... Joyfulheart | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1168 Registered: 3-2009 |
Thanks, Yenc for clarifying that. I never understood the custom to go to the bakery on Friday and pay for the cake for Saturday. You give the bakery a piece of paper that the government says is worth $20 and the bakery gives you another piece of paper (receipt) which it says it's worth $20. Then on Saturday you go to the bakery and gives then a piece of paper worth $20. Only it's not the government one. What's the difference? The same thing with the camp-meeting or any other meetings in academies or campgrounds. On Friday you go to the business office and buy a ticket. You give the business office a $10 bill and they give you a ticket worth $10. On Saturday you pay with the ticket instead of the bill. What's the difference? As for working on Saturday, we who worked for the "church" know that that is just at their convenience. I worked in a boarding academy and had to work on weekends including Saturday. I could choose not to work on Saturday, but they would knock off 10% of my monthly salary. However if I worked for a public school and they would require me to work on Saturday, the conference would use its lawyers to sue the public school and get me off of working on Saturday. Does that make sense? Hec | ||
| Nowisee Registered user Username: Nowisee Post Number: 452 Registered: 5-2009 |
Hec, I had no idea they did that in boarding academy---your last paragraph makes my head spin! Crazy-making and without a bit of sense! All the other posts about pre-paying for meals makes me want to coin a new word: "Vege-money"! To never-beens, this may seem like a silly area to discuss, but it is something we took very seriously as faithful adventists and need to process. |
