| Author | Message | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1146 Registered: 3-2009 |
Let's say that Jesus is a boat.Those who enter the boat will be saved, those who do not, will be carried away by the current. A enters the boat and believes it is a sailboat B enters the boat and believes it is a motorboat C enters the boat and believes it is a rowboat D enters the boat and believes it is made of plastic E enters the boat and believes it is made of wood f enters the boat and believes it is made of iron The boat in fact is a steamboat made of fiberglass fibers. Are all these people saved even if they don't believe the correct definition of the boat? Hec | ||
| Insearch Registered user Username: Insearch Post Number: 178 Registered: 7-2009  |
Yep, no question in my mind! | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1295 Registered: 7-2007 |
Hec, how can someone be saved if they have the wrong Jesus? For example, if someone thinks the boat is a rowboat, they have to do the work to get the boat to the other side. 1. Adventists "accept" Jesus just so far as to think He empowers them to do the work to push sin out. They THINK they've accepted Jesus when they've really accepted an investigative judge that only empowers THEM to make the progress that Adventists believe is required to be saved. They don't believe the work is DONE. 2. Mormons accept a Jesus who had a beginning, who was a spirit brother to Satan; concieved by a spirit wife of the Father (who in turn had a Father); then then was concieved again on earth. That's a totally fictitious Jesus. (They believe God is no more than what good Mormons on earth will become.) 3. Catholics believe Jesus is a victim to be sacrificed over and over again and that the priest has power to turn the bread into God. 4. Muslims believe that Jesus was a sinless man who was a good prophet, but only a man. They don't believe in the trinity at all and that Judas (or someone) died in Jesus' place at the last moment on the cross. Each of those is a false Jesus. So here we have: 1. A Jesus who empowers people to push sin out and who investigates to see who can be saved, when the Bible clearly states that believers who accept the Bible Jesus Who clearly paid the whole price in one whack; "have been saved." (Ephesians 2:8,9; 2nd Tim. 1:9; Titus 3:5) The real Jesus said "it is finished!" 2. A Jesus who had the same start as any other human - as a spirit being and then re-born as a physical being. The Bible is clear that Jesus is God and that God DIDN'T have a beginning. The Bible is also clear that there aren't any other gods besides God and Mormon theology believes there are many many throughout the universe each with his own planet to populate through his spirit-wives. Mormons get around the Bible by saying that "it's true insofar as it's been translated correctly." That way, if their beliefs contradicts the Bible they can say "oh, it wasn't translated correctly." They completely ignore the dead sea scrolls that were discovered SINCE Joseph Smith's time; plus the many manuscripts that all agree; and the care with which the Bible has been translated. 3. A victim who has to be sacrificed over and over in the "sacrifice of the mass." The Bible contradicts that saying: "For by one offering He [Jesus] has perfected forever those who are being sanctified." Hebrews 10:12 4. A Jesus who wasn't God, therefore who cannot be the atonement. They also believe that he didn't die on the cross anyway. Muslims get around the Bible by saying it's been "corrupted," similier to what Mormons say. So yes, Hec; what people believe about Jesus makes a BIG difference! Have you noticed that none of the cults believe that their future sins are forgiven? | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 2462 Registered: 8-2004  |
So what the boat looks like is not such a big deal: who we understand to be piloting the boat IS a big deal! | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3264 Registered: 10-2004  |
Hec, It is the difference between entering the correct boat that will save OR entering a counterfeit look-a-like boat that will only sink and drown you. To take it a step further let's say the counterfeit boat black logo on it's side and the correct boat that will save has a red logo on it. If a person believes that the boat that will safely take them across has a black logo on it instead of red, then they will enter the wrong boat and drown. So yes, it is very important what you believe about Jesus and who He is. God's Word itself tells us that there are false, counterfeit "Jesus"es out there that we need to beware of: "But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough." (2 Corinthians 11:3-4 NIV.) Jeremy (Message edited by jeremy on July 17, 2010) | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3265 Registered: 10-2004 |
Also, Hec, in order to enter a boat and believe it to be something it is not, one would have to be blind and/or ignorant of the truth. But the Bible says that those who receive Jesus have their eyes opened and have been set free by knowing the truth. Jeremy | ||
| Insearch Registered user Username: Insearch Post Number: 179 Registered: 7-2009 |
I wondered if I was answering too soon. This is all so confusing!!! | ||
| Insearch Registered user Username: Insearch Post Number: 180 Registered: 7-2009 |
I mean, does it really have to be so complicated? | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1297 Registered: 7-2007 |
I don't think it's complicated. Jesus really does lead us to Himself if we truly desire to follow Him - if we arn't determined to "prove" our religion right. I've been writing back in forth to a sister who seems determined to "prove" Adventism right. If I ask her something she cannot answer, she ignores the question. She won't let me discuss it over the phone (she lives a long way away), but only over email, where she can skim over "difficult" things. She's told me she's only more convinced Adventism is right. If we truly want to know the truth, God will teach us - John 6:45. Here's a little video about someone who was honestly seeking after God even though she was a Muslim. Jesus appeared to her and told her to follow Him. She protested at first; "how can I follow You? You're the One people call the God of the Christians..." but then she did follow Jesus and became a Christian. This is a long video with several parts. This is part four: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGO9KmwQ6WU&feature=related | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 8336 Registered: 3-2004  |
Not to long after I was baptized at the church I now attend I met a former Muslin woman there. When I asked her how she learned about Jesus Christ she told me it was through a dream. She said she that although she never really believed in her religion her father never did anything to her. I do not remember the rest of our conversation. Diana L | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 1081 Registered: 10-2008 |
If I might jump in ... Recently, I had a conversation with a never-been SDA ... We were talking about differences in people's scriptural thinking ... The never-been SDA (who is a spiritual leader and amazing Bible teacher) said something I'll not forget. She said, "What is important is Who people say Jesus is." The gospel according to the Bible is clearly spelled out in 1 Cor. 15:1-5. Paul says it is THIS gospel which saves ... so there must have been other gospels floating around. And He simply spells it out ... Christ died for our sins, was buried, and on the third day was raised. There are certain fundamentals about your boat Hec that is important to be saved. Muslims believe Jesus died and was not raised. Mormons don't believe Jesus is fully God and only someone who is fully God could raise Himself after three days from death. Adventists have a skewed Jesus that hasn't really fully died for our sins - because the scapegoat will die for the sins of the righteous. For me ... the gospel is pretty simple by the above definition of Paul in 1 Corinthians. It is our pride that complicates it. At least it was for me ... Until I humbled myself and realized that salvation is all of Jesus and none of me ... life has been different since I grasped that. I always like your questions Hec! They are so thought-provoking. Keri | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 1083 Registered: 10-2008 |
I've been pondering this idea of salvation and the boat and my above answer while I've done my "morning" routine ... I simply wanted to add one more thing ... I think in Adventism we were indoctrinated into thinking if we "believe" the right things then we will be saved. If we have an intellectual understanding ... God also talks about the heart ... and whoever would save his life will lose it ... There is something about having Jesus be "Lord" of your life ... submitting everything to Him ... dying to self ... I don't think I can really articulate it ... it is not something we can manufacture on our own or something we need worry about ... have I given "all" to Him. I used to worry about whether I had "given" it "all" up ... It's not that ... It is something deep and abiding and it doesn't have to do with "intellectual" understanding ... it is a response ... I guess I can only say, "God judges the heart and He knows who are His." Keri | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 2189 Registered: 5-2007  |
This statement contains a very important truth that can be wrongly applied:
By this I mean; If we think what we says is a formula that lead to salvation we might be in trouble. It is not about 'what we say'. It is vital to place our faith in the right "Jesus" because as one of the apostles said to Jesus (my paraphrase) "only you Jesus have the words of life". The wrong application is where we think 'the right words' will save us. Whereas, responding to the true salvation message through the leading of the Holy Spirit to the real Jesus is what matters. When we respond in faith to the real Jesus Christ, it is the power of God that saves us and we join the Kingdom of God. It all goes back to Abraham. He believed God and it was 'counted' as righteousness. In the current Quarterly on the book of Romans, the lesson says 'all the right things' and then the 'but' comes in and it is insisted we must do something...obey 'the law'. Responding in real faith to the real atoneing gospel of the real Jesus and our real God gives us real eternal life. Fearless Phil (Message edited by philharris on July 19, 2010) | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 2190 Registered: 5-2007 |
Clarification of previous post: By "wrongly appliced" I mean there are those who think in terms of 'worldly thinking' and approach salvation as a magic formula. For that person it is centered on what we say or do that produces the desired result. I repeat; It is all about real faith in the real Jesus. Even King David understood this. Though he sinned greatly God called him "a man after my own heart". Would it be that God would say the same of each of us! Fearless Phil | ||
| Jeremiah Registered user Username: Jeremiah Post Number: 461 Registered: 1-2004  |
If eternal life consists of knowing God and Jesus Christ, as John 17:3 would indicate, then believing Jesus is someone different than He actually is could hinder it. I would never underestimate the mercy of God, though. Jeremiah | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 1084 Registered: 10-2008 |
Phil, Well, said. Thanks for your post. I was trying to articulate the fact that it is not a "formula" with my second post - but you said it so well and so plainly. Thanks!! And I agree totally with what you wrote. Keri | ||
| Michaelsavedbygrace Registered user Username: Michaelsavedbygrace Post Number: 4 Registered: 7-2010 |
The claims of the New Covenant are exclusive. It is illegal according to Paul to attempt to be under any of the Old Covenants and at the same time claim to be Married to Christ under the New Covenant. If we are still married (using the terminology of Romans 7) to one of the older covenants and attempt a relationship with the New Covenant we are spiritually committing adultery. Read Romans 7. Let us examine the differences between the Adamic, the Abrahamic, the Mosaic, and the NEW COVENANTS. We need to take special attention to the SIGN of each covenant. We also need to realize that observance to the SIGN signifies that you are legally under all the conditions and curses of that covenant. The Adamic Covenant Promise—Christ would be crucified for the sins of the world, and would later crush the rebellion of Satan permanently. Condition—Unconditional Sign—The Sacrificial Services - After God gave the promise and placed the curses upon Adam as the head of the human race the LORD then made for them coats of skins. An animal died to provide clothing for them. This symbolized how Christ would later die for them and would clothe them with His own Righteousness. The story of Cane and Abel demonstrates the unspoken reality that God had very specific instructions for them in the manner in which to conduct these sacrifices. Abel’s sacrifice pleased God. All Old Testament sacrifices from Abraham to Moses to King David followed after this pattern laid down by God at the time of the fall of Adam and Eve. The Abrahamic Covenant Promise—The families of the world will be blessed through the SEED of Abraham (Genesis 12:3; 22:18). “Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.” - Galatians 3:16 Condition—Faith: Abraham believed Genesis 15:6 Sign—Circumcision (Gen. 17:10-13) The Mosaic Covenant: Promise—God promises to make Israel “a kingdom of priests and a holy nation” Exodus 19:6 Condition—Obedience to the Ten Commandments Sign— The Sabbath was at the heart of the Old Covenant, it lay center of the Ten Commandments. Observance to Sabbath was a sign that Israel had accepted God’s Covenant given through Moses at Sinai, which meant they were obligated to obey both the Ten Commandments as well as the additional 613 commands given through Moses. Violating the Sabbath carried the penalty of death. The New Covenant Promise—Everlasting Life John 3:16 Condition—Faith Romans 3:21-28 Sign— The Lord’s Supper (I Cor 11:25, Luke 22:20, Mark 14:24) The Lord’s Supper is the sign of the new covenant. As Jesus took the cup He said, “This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins” (Matthew 26:28). As with any covenant sign, it is to serve as a reminder of the promises of the covenant. Thus Jesus said that we are to partake of the bread “in remembrance of Me” (Luke 22:19). Now that we have carefully given an overview of each of the covenants we need to realize what was stated at the beginning, that when we place ourselves under the SIGN of any of these older covenants we are thereby legally placed back under that covenants conditions and its curses. The New Covenant makes no compromise with this fact. It does not allow a person to place himself under multiple covenants. We cannot put faith in circumcision to make us right with God and still be under the protection and blessings of the New Covenant. If we put our faith in either animal sacrifices, circumcision, or Sabbath observance we must perfectly obey the conditions of these old covenants. Observing the SIGN of one of the older covenants only profits you now if you obey the laws contained in those covenants perfectly. "For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law." Romans 2:25. "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them." - Galatians 3:10 Placing yourself under the signs (animal sacrifices, circumcision, Sabbath) of the older covenants DISQUALIFIES that person from being under the grace of the New Covenant. "Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace." Galatians 5:1-4 It is my position therefore that it does matter which boat you get in. Because not all boats have the same destination. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11417 Registered: 12-2003  |
Jeremy, Phil, Jrt, Michael...great posts. Yes, it matters. And I understand where Hec is coming from. I struggled for years to figure our if my SDA loved one are saved, and if they are, why was it important for me to leave... It really does come down to the identity of Jesus and the completion of His atonement for sin. Adventists teach a false Jesus who could have failed, who was born just as we were born—and in Adventist-think, that means he didn't have a spirit any more than we do. His sinless nature has always been denied or, more lately, debated. this "jesus" cannot save us, and sincere belief that this "jesus" die for our sin and is the source of salvation is simply believing a lie. God knows the hearts. If someone, as Asurprise said above, truly desires to know what is true, God will reveal that. He is faithful. But if a person simply wants to defend and bolster her false gospel, we have to assume they don't know Jesus—or that they're being tempted and deceived and pulled away toward compromise. It matters what boat we get in...because the "boat" is defined by the captain. The true biblical Jesus is the only way to be saved. We can't judge individual's spiritual condition, but we are asked to judge systems of belief. The boats in question reveal the beliefs and the captain navigating that body of belief. Jesus is the only way to God. Colleen | ||
| Bb Registered user Username: Bb Post Number: 725 Registered: 7-2004 |
After reading all of these good posts, I went back to the original question, and Hec has made the boat be Jesus; He doesn't mention a driver. So the boat IS Jesus (I love a good riddle) So...this is how I see it. A,B,C,D,E and F, are all sinners saved by the blood of Jesus, IF they got into the right boat. Hec says this steamboat made of fiberglass represents Jesus. So G,H,I, J and K probably got on different boats because they are in cults that don't believe in JESUS as the Savior (which is this fiberglass boat that A-F got into) Therefore, these six individuals are saved by Jesus, yet each with different belief systems. The only conclusion I can come up with is that thinking the boat is a different material than it is would be non-salvational issues, such as end time events and other doctrinal differences. Since they obviously all got in the correct boat, they will soon find out that it is indeed a steamboat made of fiberglass. One will say "Wow! I thought this was a sailboat!!" and so on... Yet, so overjoyed at being with Jesus and being saved, they will not care what material the boat is made of. Don't you think we all are one day going to say "Wow! I thought things were going to be this way!" I can't help but think of all the sincere adventists who trusted Jesus as their Savior up in heaven saying "Wow! I thought it was going down a different way!!"  | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1153 Registered: 3-2009 |
Thanks Bb for explaining it the way I meant but was not able to explain. Hec |
