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| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 724 Registered: 8-2008 |
In a thread in the other section of the forum, the topic came up of how Adventist theology says the ultimate issue is that God must vindicate Himself before Satan. I wanted to share some Biblical thoughts here on the public side of the forum on this, so that lurkers can read it as well. Theodicy is the area of theology that deals with showing God is just for being who He is and doing as He does and so forth. The word was coined by the mathematician and philosopher Leibniz, who discovered calculus independently of Newton (a shameless plug for a fellow mathematician). Anyway, there is certainly an element of this theodicy in both the Old and New Testaments. The book of Habakkuk comes to mind. But no where in the Bible is there an issue where God has to prove to Satan that God is justified. Rather, it always focuses on God proving Himself to humanity. But more to the point, Adventism says God still has to be vindicated before the universe, and He will be vindicated once it can be shown that His law can be kept by humanity, in the Investigative Judgment. Romans 3 says this is utterly wrong. The first three chapters of Romans deal with a sort of conflict between God and wayward humanity, and at times Paul uses law-court terms. His law court is similar to the Jewish law courts, where each side testifies against the other. God uses this metaphor in reprimanding wayward Israel in Micah 6, and Paul seems to echo the sentiments of Micah 6 in Rom. 3:1-8. Then in verses 9-18, he shows that every single human being is condemned in this court. There is more to be said about how this compares to the law cases in the Torah, but I won't go into that here. The point here is that Paul presents the court based on the OT Law, not after the Cross in some sort of Investigative Judgment, but before the Cross. Paul is in essence saying that the entire OT period from the giving of the Torah until the birth of Christ was a sort of law court, where "those subject to the law" were shown to be rebellious, and thus all mankind was demonstrated to be deserving of death. This idea of God's judgment against rebellious Israel is common in the OT prophets. Paul then says in Romans 3:19-20, "Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin." In his bold conclusion of what the Gospel means for sinful man and Holy God, Paul says: In Romans 3:21, Paul says God's "righteousness is revealed." What does Paul mean by this? Well, Paul said exactly this same thing in Romans 1:16-17: Paul quotes Habakkuk 2:4 to explain what he means when he says God's righteousness is revealed. God is shown to be righteous, or just. In Greek, the words righteous and just are tightly related. So why does Paul quote Habakkuk? This is perhaps the one part of Romans that gets hardly any attention. In Habakukk, the prophet questions how God can be just if He allows so much evil and wickedness to go on without stopping it and setting everything right somehow. Rather than defending Himself point-by-point against mortal man (something He has no need to do) God tells the prophet that when His purposes are brought to fruition, it will be clear that He is justified. So God tells Habakkuk: So in Romans 3:21, Paul is saying that now, since Jesus has appeared and died for us, God's righteousness has been revealed (notice the "revelation" spoken of by God to Habakkuk and the word "revealed" used by Paul). That is, God has shown Himself to be just and good and right, and shown man to be unjust and evil and unrighteous. But Paul says that God is justified "apart from the law." The Law does not vindicate God. The law simply shows us that we are evil, as Paul stated in vs. 19-20. Rather, the Cross vindicates God. The life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ shows us (not Satan) that God is righteous. As Paul says later in Romans 8, the Cross condemns sin, providing for us to be reconciled to Him and submitted to Him through the indwelling Spirit, when beforehand we were hostile to Him and evil. Thus, Paul says, "God presented Him as a propitiation through faith in His blood, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His restraint God passed over the sins previously committed." The part about God passing over sins is very much the stuff of Habakkuk. How can God let evil go on forever without doing something to end it? The reply: In the atoning death of Jesus Christ, God does something to put away evil once, for all. Thus, the blood of His Cross first justifies us before God, and then makes us holy. The Cross removes the stain of sin and gives us a new spirit that is alive to Him and submitted to Him. Thus, God completely deals with and destroys sin forever at the Cross. Consider Hebrews 10:12-14: What remains now is not some additional phase of atonement. As Hebrews 10:13 says, what remains is for all the enemies of the Cross to be put under Christ's footstool. But, as Hebrews 10:12-14 also says, it is still the Cross that is the means by which sin is finally and forever overcome. God is not, nor was He ever, nor will He ever be, vindicated before Satan by the Law. God's righteousness is revealed "apart from the law." Rather, even though He doesn't need to, in His mercy God still chooses to prove His righteousness to us once and for all in the Cross of Jesus Christ. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11392 Registered: 12-2003  |
Very insightful points, Brent. It is so upside-down from Adventist theology that, according to Romans 3:21-26, the cross is God's "vindication". He is just in not punishing sinners prior to the cross; Jesus' substitutionary, propitiatory death revealed why those sins had gone unpunished—because Jesus took the punishment. It's interesting that there is no outstanding question about God's fairness in punishing sinners, and no outstanding question about God's "law". Rather the only question was about the justice of God's not punishing sinners—a question settled at the cross. Just about everything we learned was upside down... Colleen | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 829 Registered: 12-2007 |
Brent : "As Hebrews 10:13 says, what remains is for all the enemies of the Cross to be put under Christ's footstool." (Notice it does NOT say the enemies of the LAW !) Brent: "But, as Hebrews 10:12-14 also says, it is still the Cross that is the means by which sin is finally and forever overcome. " Exactly ! The CROSS is the means of overcoming sin NOT keeping of LAW! Of course when we say it is NOT the law, some will claim that we are saying it is ok to steal, murder, lie, etc. (sigh) just not "getting it" that Jesus came and gave us new and better rules to live by than the Ten written on stone. He gives us the loving warmth of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to be our guide instead of cold stone tablets. Thank you Lord Jesus :-) Francie | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11393 Registered: 12-2003 |
Francie, I've become convinced that many people who cry "Antinomian!" when we say the law was completely fulfilled in Jesus (the tablets being, as it says in Exodus 34:28, the very "words of the covenant"), that He becomes our Source of instruction and personal moral guidance when we are born again, is that they don't really understand the spirit. The new birth gives life to our spirits by the indwelling Holy Spirit. He is the One who convicts of sin, righteousness, and judgment (John 16). Of course, there are some who are born again who still cry "Antinomian", but I think those have a misunderstanding of the total NEWNESS of the new covenant as described in Hebrews and Galatians and even Romans. But for Adventists, the lack of belief in the spirit is a huge warp in the fabric of reality. Nothing really makes sense with that skew. Colleen | ||
| Yenc Registered user Username: Yenc Post Number: 163 Registered: 6-2008 |
For my own sake, I just looked up "antinomianism" in my Webster's New Columbia Encyclopedia, and have copied the entry here for anyone unclear about the formal definition.
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| Yenc Registered user Username: Yenc Post Number: 164 Registered: 6-2008 |
So, am I correct, Colleen, in understanding that the term "antinomian" really has two meanings? Strictly, it means (1) "not bound by the [O.T.] law," which we maintain is true, and thus "antinomianism" is not an insult; or (2) it is used as an insult the imply that we are thereby declaring ourselves to be "amoral" and thus freely and unconscionably relieving ourselves of any obligation to behave in a "moral" fashion. It seems that when someone cries "Antinomian!" we need to have them define the term before any meaningful exchange can ensue. | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 850 Registered: 2-2008  |
Great post Brent! I'm saving this. It's amazing how Paul simply stated that God's righteousness was revealed apart from the law. Do you know how many times I've read this? ... and completely missed that??? Thanks for posting this. vivian | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 517 Registered: 1-2006  |
Good point, Yenc. Just this morning I found a statement that I read recently, but couldn't locate. I loaded the old EGW writings CD . . . and here it is: From the Review and Herald, May 3, 1898, article entitled God’s Standard of Character, by Ellen White: “Obedience to the law of ten commandments is the condition of salvation. This is God’s positive requirement.” Just in case we had any doubts. Bob | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 518 Registered: 1-2006 |
Vivian I also printed this thread to get Brent's comments. I never saw what Brent pointed out, either, till now. I just praise God to be learning so much from fellow Christians! It happens so often--someone makes a comment on a text and suddenly the lights come on for the first time! Thank you, Lord Jesus. | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 519 Registered: 1-2006 |
Colleen, you wrote: "Rather the only question was about the justice of God's not punishing sinners—a question settled at the cross." I think we will be PRAISING GOD FOREVER on this point. Well said! Bob | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11399 Registered: 12-2003 |
Just to dovetail with Brent's post re: Romand 3:21-25. Romans 3:21 says this
Just this morning Richard and I read this in Hebrews 3:5-6:
Did you catch that? Moses was faithful as a servant for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken later. In other words, the law over which Moses presided testified of the reality which Jesus the Word (Jn. 1:1) spoke later...as God's final word to mankind (Heb. 1:1-3). The law is repeatedly pictured as the testimony pointing toward the reality—the Lord Jesus! Colleen |
