| Author | Message | ||
| Cloudwatcher Registered user Username: Cloudwatcher Post Number: 74 Registered: 5-2009 |
The more I read about and understand grace and its many facets, I keep thinking about what I *thought* it meant before. Was I confusing it with mercy? I've heard many people refer to Adventist churches and Adventist pastors who teach and preach grace. I wonder what they mean when they say this... If these churches are also digesting Adventist literature in the process (SS lessons, etc.), then how could the simultaneously be promoting/preaching/teaching the doctrines of grace? Interested in your thoughts on this... | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11270 Registered: 12-2003  |
Cloudwatcher, I've asked myself the SAME question--often, in fact. I've also thought about the idea that as Adventists we confused "grace" with "mercy". I think as an Adventist, I sort-of thought of God's "grace" as "God's pity"...He felt bad for us, much as we feel bad for a small child who gets himself into a pickle and can't get out without our help. I think I had the idea that God had a good and soft heart, and He hated seeing us suffer, so He devised a plan to have mercy on us in our self-imposed (although not really self-imposed, either, but Satan- directed) misery and had mercy on us and deigned to rescue us. God's grace, however, is not about me. It's about God. God didn't feel sorry for us poor benighted mortals and rescue us. He is holy and sovereign and thoroughly good, and He, for HIS glory, extended grace to humanity. Grace is the gift of Himself and His Life. It was His life that Adam lost when he sinned. God had said they would die the very day they ate that fruit, and they did. Their spirits died; they lost the literal life and presence of God in their spirits that God had breathed into Adam. God's grace is His giving His Son who is God to us eternally. He became incarnate—He took on flesh—and forevermore, the eternal, Almighty God the Son will possess a physical body. He took a mortal body just like ours and died a death just like our deaths—and He died as our Substitute. Because He was God, He qualified as fully righteous and thus could offer His incarnate body as a substitute sacrifice in our place. This mystery—the incarnation, Jesus' death, and His resurrection into a glorified body—this is His grace. He gave us Himself, and when we accept Him, He restores us by sweeping us up into His story and giving us His own life again...the life that Adam lost for us all. His grace isn't about merely forgiving us. He doesn't overlook our sin or excuse us because He loves us so much. He NEVER excuses us. He doesn't merely rescue us, mercifully, from our mess. He gives us Himself and restores His life to us. All this, to be sure, does stem from His core nature of Love. But His love for us is a spill-over of His intrinsic love within the Trinity. When we are born again and again bear His image in us, His own Spirit and life, He loves us and we become one with Him. He loves the lost, too, but not as His children. He loves the lost as His separated creation that needs restoring. God's grace is about God, not about us. In Adventism, I understood God's "grace" as "Me-centered". God loved me so much He forgave me. No! God cannot be unfaithful to Himself (2 Timothy 2), and He gave HIMSELF forever to us so He could glorify Himself by taking objects of wrath and transforming them with His own Life. Forgiveness is a fruit of His mystery of grace; it is not the identity of His grace. I'm still not fully capturing this, but Cloudwatcher, you've asked a very BIG question--that I also grapple with! Colleen | ||
| Believer247 Registered user Username: Believer247 Post Number: 131 Registered: 3-2009 |
Colleen, you stated very well what my idea of grace was as an Adventist. Grace was more like pity or mercy. | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 655 Registered: 5-2002 |
When I was in Adventism, "grace" meant Divine empowerment to keep the 10 Commandment Law. Now "grace" means unilateral Divine intervention that saved a wretch like me. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11271 Registered: 12-2003 |
Oh, Freeatlast...that's also right! My goodness...they did use it that way! It was such a perverted word—another of those wonderful and powerful words within Christianity which we used completely differently from the way "they" used it...and no one, either us or them, knew we meant different things... Paul says in Ephesians 3:9-10 that the "grace given" to him was to preach the gospel to the Gentiles. IOW, Paul's commission, the work God prepared in advance for him to do, was God's grace to him. When I think of that, I begin to realize that real grace is the provision of God in giving Himself and His work to us for His glory. It's way different from what I used to think... Colleen | ||
| Freedom55 Registered user Username: Freedom55 Post Number: 57 Registered: 3-2008 |
And yet if you check the dictionary,you will find that mercy is a synonym for grace. Is that so bad? | ||
| Cloudwatcher Registered user Username: Cloudwatcher Post Number: 75 Registered: 5-2009 |
I think mercy is definitely a component, but when you begin to understand grace, it's soooooo much more than that. In addition, I was reminded recently, that to an SDA living "under grace" vs. "under the law" means that God no longer commands the earth to swallow us up when we disobey. Yeah... I guess that could be considered mercy. One more thing that was running through my head about this topic... when an SDA church spouts that it is a place of grace, don't they really mean, we won't treat you badly for wearing earings or not living up to our standards... I think this is how they see God's grace to us as well... it's related to pity more than unmerited FAVOR. | ||
| Freedom55 Registered user Username: Freedom55 Post Number: 58 Registered: 3-2008 |
I certainly agree that God's grace is not pity. Pity says, "Oh, I'm so sorry that you've fallen into sin. Too bad." Pity does nothing for the sinner. God's grace has been defined as His unmerited favor bestowed on us sinners which I understand to be the gift of salvation through His Son Jesus Christ. One definition for mercy I found was that it implies compassion that forbears punishing even when justice demands it, sort of like a blessing that is an act of divine favor or compassion. When the publican cried out, "Lord have mercy on me",(Luke 18:13) I have seen some translations render the verse "Lord be gracious to me" which I understand to be a cry from the heart to God - "Lord please extend your grace to me". Its intersting to note that the greek word translated "mercy" in that text Luke 18:13 is found in only one other text in the New Testament, at Hebrews 2:17, where it is used in a reference to Jesus as our "merciful and faithful high priest". So here you have on the a sinner crying out for mercy to the only person who can truly bestow it, that being Jesus Christ our Lord. So I do agree that our understanding of God's grace is so much more than we may have previously understood it. But we could probably say the same goes for our previous understanding of God's mercy. I am simply in awe of what God has done for us. I want to bask in his mercy and grace. I cry out, "Lord have mercy on me, a sinner". | ||
| Oceanblue Registered user Username: Oceanblue Post Number: 5 Registered: 5-2010 |
hmmm, interesting point you guys bring up. I can't say I completely understand the different between the two. I always understood grace to be "unmerited favor" but then again, mercy doesn't sound that different to me. And Colleen and Coudwatcher's definition as to how they understood grace as adventists is pretty close to what my understanding was growing up as an SDA. I guess I know what my next study topic is. Ugh, I hate this feeling. It's like seeing words you thought you knew but it's not making sense. It's all muddled somehow. | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 2000 Registered: 4-2000  |
True biblical soteriology is Christocentric. Grace is not a reward for our faith, but rather, it is the cause of faith. Jesus provides everything we need for salvation, including a new heart to believe. Since the whole gospel is contained in Christ, getting the gospel right should be our top priority. Our merciful and sovereign God relentlessly pursues rebels who are foreordained to become willing to believe (i.e., Paul on the road to Damascus). Truly, it is impossible to ever thank Him sufficiently for His saving grace. It's all about Him! Soli Deo Gloria! His grace still amazes me, Dennis Fischer | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11279 Registered: 12-2003 |
Dennis, you make an interesting point. "Grace is not a reward for our faith, but rather, it is the cause of faith." I think that, while grace and mercy are similar in connotation, when we refer to God's grace, what I am discovering is that His grace is His "unmerited favor" in causing us to be able to respond to Him, not simply in His forgiving us. I'm having trouble articulating what I mean, but I now see grace as God's original, causative act of revealing Himself and bringing us to life and giving Himself for us—miracles which result in our forgiveness and in our being spared from hell. I think I used to understand God's grace as my being potentially forgiven and spared without realizing that His grace was actually something bigger and prior to my forgiveness. God's grace is His self-sacrifice for His glory and my good—it is not primarily about what happens to me. I'm sorry I'm not making this very clear...I guess I could just say that I'm beginning to see that God's grace is a revelation of His divine Life and Love--not merely the fact of my salvation and rescue by a compassionate deity. But all of the above is true, at the same time, I believe! Colleen | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 487 Registered: 1-2006  |
Colleen R C Sproul would say that regeneration precedes faith. Calvinists deny that faith precedes regeneration. Like you, I also believe in God's Sovereign will. Adventist theology has this backwards. Bob | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 1077 Registered: 10-2008 |
Colleen, Just to tag on to what you say above ... sorry, I haven't really read this thread, yet. ... For me grace became something I never really understood - until I accepted the fact of original sin and I was born spiritually dead to God. Grace really became more clear to me as I realized dead people can't respond (using a physical metaphor for a spiritual reality). Keri P.S. I believe I understand what you are trying to articulate | ||
| Sunnimoreno Registered user Username: Sunnimoreno Post Number: 102 Registered: 10-2008 |
I understand grace on its effect on me. as an adventist grace made me PROUD that I had God's power to keep the 10 commandments while my neighbor couldn't. as a born again christian grace made me HUMBLE when I realized that God loved me in spite of who i am and even before i came to be. this feeling was never present in my past adventist life. | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 492 Registered: 1-2006 |
Sunni Praise God for your testimony! What a difference it makes to know that we are truly loved by God. Bob | ||
| Nowhitehats Registered user Username: Nowhitehats Post Number: 14 Registered: 4-2010 |
Here's how I've come to see it: GRACE - the giving of something I do not deserve. MERCY - the withholding of something I do deserve. It may be a little simplistic but that's how I keep it straight in my head. | ||
| Cloudwatcher Registered user Username: Cloudwatcher Post Number: 77 Registered: 5-2009 |
Nowhitehats - great way to make the distinction! I am going to remember that! | ||
| Yenc Registered user Username: Yenc Post Number: 71 Registered: 6-2008 |
Perfect definition! Thanks! |
