| Author | Message | ||
| Martin Registered user Username: Martin Post Number: 115 Registered: 11-2008 |
Anyone who is familiar with Adventism will have come across a recurrent topic: the possibility of Jesus failing in His mission on Earth. During the years I was in the SDA church I heard countless discussions about that issue. If Jesus had sinned, for example during the temptations in the desert, then the whole plan of salvation would have failed and, thus, God would have also failed. Within Adventist theology that would have had catastrophic consequences for God, since then He wouldn't be able to vindicate His name in the end of times. Some, I think, are pretty quick to state that this even demonstrates more His love for us since God would have had a lot to lose. However, in my opinion, that idea pictures a god that is not in total control, that is not completely sovereign of the whole universe and beyond. It is a god with weaknesses. There are many verses in the Bible that clearly shows the opposite: that God would and will never fail, and that Jesus had it very clear in His mind what He had to do, what would happen and that He would be successful. I would like now to go through one of those texts, which I never noticed before in this way until last night. Every Wednesday evening I attend a Bible study with young people from my church (http://www.fulwoodchurch.co.uk/). We've been going through Philippians during the last few weeks and it's been really challenging. Yesterday we read Phil. 2:1-11 and there was something that struck me. Verses 5-8 (NIV) read:
We discussed a bit about the idea of Jesus not wanting to "grasp" His equality with God and I mentioned that, in English language, I have always used "to grasp" in the sense of "understanding", as in "I didn't grasp that idea", but that I understood the text to mean that Jesus didn't hold unto His equality with God. One person said something that caught my attention: We want to hold unto "something" at any cost when we are not confident enough to go on our own, when that "something" helps us to overcome our insecurities. Then it came to my mind that the text in Philippians gives us a better picture of how amazing and glorious our God is: He is so confident, so sure of who He is, that even when becoming "nothing" He knows He is able to succeed and achieve all His objectives. That is not a god who is not sure if he's going to fail or not. That is a God who is always in control. Even when He is "nothing". How great is that?  | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 8179 Registered: 3-2004  |
AWESOME!!! Diana L | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 2430 Registered: 8-2004  |
Amen!! | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 481 Registered: 1-2006  |
Martin This concept of a failing God is alive and well in Loma Linda. I recall a couple years ago speaking to a socinian adventist who told me that there were a number of christs who came and tried to live without sinning and who failed, and are now lost, apparently, until finally one of them got it right, and thereby qualified to become God's son . . . or something like that. I think his theology suggested that we must also reach sinless perfection in the flesh. The logic of why we would even need a Savior in this scenario escapes me. Luke 1:35 tells us that the Son of God was born holy--a strong hint that holiness wasn't subject to circumstance or fate! Bob | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 652 Registered: 5-2002 |
Amen! The further away from Adventism I dwell, the more awesome Jesus appears! | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 8183 Registered: 3-2004 |
AMEN TO THAT!!!!! Diana L | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1980 Registered: 4-2000  |
Yes, indeed, the darkness of Adventism becomes continually dimmer in the brilliant light of the Gospel. Getting the Gospel right should be our top priority.
Dennis Fischer | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6231 Registered: 9-2006  |
Adventists entertain the idea that Jesus could have failed because they do not view Jesus as the sacrificial lamb, but as an example to us to show us the way to lead a sinless life. Our top priority should be to recognize who Jesus is first off, because, as you can see by the Adventist world view, not know who Jesus is can lead to all kinds of problems. The first words out of Johns mouth when he saw Jesus was "Behold the lamb of God which takes away the sins of the world. The first priority is not in getting the gospel right in head knowledge, but IS beholding the lamb of God. The minute you 'behold' him. you will never be the same. River | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 2434 Registered: 8-2004 |
Good point River! | ||
| Believer247 Registered user Username: Believer247 Post Number: 129 Registered: 3-2009 |
Excellent points, River! | ||
| Yenc Registered user Username: Yenc Post Number: 39 Registered: 6-2008 |
Could Jesus have failed? The teaching that He could have failed is, pure and simple, blasphemy of the worst kind! (Shame on teachers who say this!) He was, is, and forever will be GOD, and God cannot fail! Jesus' arrival fulfilled every prophecy regarding the coming Messiah. He alone, of everyone ever born, lived a perfect life. Coincidence? Absolutely NOT! It was not a "trial run" to check out His success:failure ratio! He was not a test case! This appalling, heretical belief, probably more than any other, differentiates true Christianity from imposters! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11254 Registered: 12-2003  |
River, excellent point. And Yenc, I agree; the teaching that Jesus, a man with no advantage we do not also have who could have failed, is utter heresy. The Adventist paradigm does not factor in the existence of the human spirit. Their soteriology is messed up because they don't believe in the reality of a literal, spiritual new birth that brings our existing but dead human spirits to life by the indwelling of God in the person of the Holy Spirit. We pass from death to life when that happens (Jn 5:24)—not figuratively but literally. We cannot be "unborn". Our eternal life is not a promise when we accept Jesus; it is a current and eternal FACT. Jesus was born with a living, not a dead, spirit. This fact makes Him different from every other human. Of COURSE He had an advantage we don't have! He is God, and His Spirit was alive with God's own life from conception. Our spirits become alive with God's life when we place our faith in Jesus and His sacrifice and receive His forgiveness through His blood. Nothing else will do; nothing else is required. Jesus' blood is the substance of the "eternal covenant". Colleen | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1984 Registered: 4-2000 |
Something Beautiful Some of you, who read this forum, have personally contacted me by phone or sent me email messages, and I wept with you in your confusion and heartache as you begin to transition out of a cult into biblical Christianity. Belief transitions, at best, are not without trauma. As Bill Gaither's inspiring song says, "All I had to offer Him was brokenness and strife, but He made something beautiful of my life. All my confusion He understood." These lyrics aptly provide the testimony of former Adventists as well. Yes, indeed, there is an abundant, wonderful life beyond Adventism. Sylvia and I have sipped enough nectar from the roses of life to not regret a mile we have traveled for the Lord. Truly, music is a wonderful language that speaks in ways that nothing else can. Please take a few moments of your busy life to listen to this audio/video clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ar-sPqVmOSc&feature=related Dennis Fischer | ||
| Sparrow Registered user Username: Sparrow Post Number: 94 Registered: 10-2008  |
Something Beautiful That's been my theme song for years! I am thankful to serve and worship a Jesus who can not nor ever will fail. | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1985 Registered: 4-2000 |
Salvation is a gift to be received, not a goal to be achieved. The will of God will not lead you where the grace of God cannot keep you. May these concise thoughts on Christology, hamartiology, and soteriology dramatically increase your doxology. Dennis Fischer | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6244 Registered: 9-2006 |
So essentially what has been said here is that some will be lost because it is Gods will for them to be lost. I don't believe that at all, in fact I think it is a slap in the face of God. Another thing has been said, salvation is a gift to be received, well..what if it is not received? The words 'our own cooperation' is darkened for for effect. So which is it? Now I agree I don't understand how my salvation came about, but I do know there will be some lost, and in fact, in percentage of population, more will be lost, than saved I suspect, since the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Yes, I think God is sovereign, yes there is predestination and foreknowledge by God, but the lamb of God came to take away the sins of the world, not a select few. So there is something here that we need to hold in tension. I know holding in tension certain things can drive one crazy thinking about it, such as the trinity. When posed with this problem, I came to the same conlusion that the theology instructor came too. He just shook his head. And no, holding what we do not know about God, is not denying the Gospel. I am just as happy with the things I don't know about him, as I am with the things I do know, I'm satisfied to leave the answers in his capable hand. But what Horton said is a bunch of criss crossing crock, and makes presumptions that cannot be proven out in the word. Its really a small mind that will take what someone else says as truth until proven false. In fact, that's the kind of people you find in Adventism, they take what somebody else says as truth until proven false, then many of them are so small minded, even after its proven false, they still claim it as truth. So to me, some of these thoughts are neither concise, nor correct. River | ||
| Yenc Registered user Username: Yenc Post Number: 45 Registered: 6-2008 |
In order to be saved, there ARE absolutely things we must DO! Among other texts, see these: If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead,thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9, 10 (Paul and Silas to the jailer) Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. Acts 16:30, 31 1. We must BELIEVE that Jesus, and He alone can save us. 2. We must ACCEPT His offer of salvation. 3. We must CONFESS Him as our Saviour. Yes, River, you are absolutely right! NOT everyone will be saved, because not everyone believes, accepts, and confesses Jesus ALONE as Lord and Saviour! And that said, I do believe there is not one thing we can do to EARN salvation, because it is a free gift of God, given to every believer. Believing, accepting, and confessing are not earning salvation! Unbelieving, recalcitrant sinners will not be saved, not because they have not earned it, but because they do not accept Jesus' offer! Clearly, God WANTS all human beings to be saved! But most reject His offer, and prefer to go their own way, not believing in His promises, not accepting the gift, and blaspheming His name. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3238 Registered: 10-2004  |
Yenc, Why do some reject His offer and others receive it? Jeremy | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1987 Registered: 4-2000 |
Yes, human beings certainly prize the idea of having full control and of being the "captains" of their destiny. Since regeneration precedes faith, we should realize that even our faith is a gift from God. Regeneration is an act of creation. God does the creating. A person is never partially born again. When God regenerates a human soul, when he makes us spiritually alive, we make choices. We believe. We have faith. We cling to Christ. God does not believe for us. Faith is not monergistic. We are not stringed like puppets. We are biologically alive. We act. We make decisions, but never decisions that belong to God. Indeed, "Salvation comes from the Lord" (Jonah 2:9 NIV). Salvation is a gift to be received, not a goal to be achieved. It's all about Him, Dennis Fischer | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 8194 Registered: 3-2004 |
"Salvation comes from the Lord". It is a gift to be received, not a goal to be achieved. I cannot just check it off and tell myself, OK, that is done what do I do now!!! It is all about HIM!!! Thanks for reminding us Dennis. Diana L | ||
| Yenc Registered user Username: Yenc Post Number: 47 Registered: 6-2008 |
Jeremy (and others): God created man above animals, which behave in response to instinct and conditioned responses, without consciousness of God, sin, forgiveness, Jesus, the plan of salvation, eternity, or any other spiritually relevant issues. But God made us with the capability of learning these things and endowed us with the power of choice. In Joshua 24 God spoke at length to Israel, in a speech conveyed to them by Joshua, reminding the Israelites of their history. The culmination of this discourse is here: 14 Now therefore fear the Lord, and serve Him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the Lord. 15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord. The Israelites then swore to serve the true God, and Joshua erected a monument to commemorate that decision. But their history showed that many departed from God and suffered the consequences! 2 Chronicles 15:2 The Lord is with you while ye be with Him, but if ye forsake Him, He will forsake you. Throughout the whole Bible are warnings against departing from God's ways, abandoning faith, choosing to return to a life of willful sin. If salvation were a "sure thing" and we could not give up our "free gift," these warnings would be mere scare tactics and would mean nothing! God desires our CONTINUED loyalty. But He always gives us the freedom of choice! Some use Romans 8:38,39 to "prove" that salvation is absolute: For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the Love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. But note that none of the listed things are choices! They are all external influences! Numerous warnings against falling away, against complacency, against failure to continue in prayer appear throughout the New Testament. WHY? Because these are things we can DO that jeopardize our salvation! If this were not true, the warnings would be superfluous, nothing more than empty words! Jeremy, you ask: Why do some choose to reject His offer and others receive it? God gives us the wonderful gift of freedom to choose. So the answer is highly personal, unique to each person. Some choose not to depend on God to supply all their needs, but prefer to do it their own way. Some, like the rich young ruler, cannot bear to leave the tangible comforts of their lives and risk everything for the intangible richness of salvation! | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3239 Registered: 10-2004 |
Yen, Now you have gone outside of a discussion on free will or predestination, and have entered the realm of outright heresy and a false gospel of salvation by works. I'm not even interested in discussing the free will issue any more now, since you've introduced something more serious that needs to be discussed, as it touches on essential Christian doctrine. We are not saved by continuing to have a good prayer life. We are not saved by avoiding complacency (how much of the time do you have to avoid it in order to stay saved, btw? 24/7? How do you know?). We are not saved by avoiding "willful sin" (isn't all sin "willful"?). That would be salvation by works. If we lose our salvation because of sinning or neglecting prayer, that is salvation by works, plain and simple, and it even takes us outside of a discussion on OSAS ("once saved, always saved"). That is no different than the "gospel" we learned in Adventism. If it is left up to us to maintain our salvation, that is not salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Jesus Christ's work on the Cross in our behalf alone. I would be content to have a disagreement over free will/predestination, but when it comes to the essentials of the Gospel, I cannot simply agree to disagree. As for Romans 8:38-39, it says "nor things to come"--that covers anything that could happen in the future, including your own choices and decisions! When it says "nor height, nor depth," it is referring to anything anywhere, which includes you! When it says "nor any other creature" (literally, "nor any other created thing" [YLT & NASB] or "nor anything else in all creation" [NIV]), that includes you! The Holy Spirit is as clear as can be in this passage that it is impossible for a true believer to lose their salvation. He could not be any more emphatic! So no, we don't "use" Romans 8 to "prove" that salvation is absolute. Romans 8 plainly says outright that salvation is absolute! Jeremy (Message edited by jeremy on May 23, 2010) | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6246 Registered: 9-2006 |
My disagreement is not over the doctrine of free will, or once saved always saved. My disagreement is with any conveyance of the idea that the gift of salvation is not freely offered to all. Here is why. The Bible is very succinct about this through out. There are many passages in scripture concerning this, but I will use only one. Peter II 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. This is an important concept for the people on this forum to understand in their hearts and minds. Here is why. There are people on this forum who have loved ones, spouses, sons and daughters, friends, left behind, steeped in a world of heresy, saying that the atonement of Jesus, Gods spotless lamb, is not full and complete. I am afraid, according to what I understand about Adventism, that it is not a Christian organization, formed by Christians, and that it leads people into perdition, having not received Christ as their personal savior, but having received a substitute doctrine of devils, denying the simple gospel of salvation, and are in very much danger of losing their souls. Since it is not Gods will that any be perish (lost), there is hope. Keep on praying, have faith in God, those who are strong in the faith, have faith for the weak in the faith, those who are discouraged, encourage, those who are down, lift them up, rejoice in the salvation that God has brought, and those who are still steeped in heresy will see it, and perhaps come to repentance. The older ones in the faith, watch over the ones who are struggling on their way out of Adventism. Be gentle, and be merciful. Lets not lose sight of the bigger picture, the bigger picture is that it is Gods will that ALL should come to a place of repentance from dead works. Bottom line folks. Because it is not Gods will that any should perish, we pray for those who are without, that brother, that sister, that father, that mother, and we witness to them of Jesus grace. River | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11261 Registered: 12-2003 |
Yenc, if we cannot take to the bank the promises that God completes what He begins in us (Phil 1:6), that nothing in all creation can take us away from the love of God in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:38-39), that when we place our faith in Jesus we have passed from death to life (John 5:24), that the Holy Spirit is a guarantee of our complete inheritance yet to be realized when we are glorified (Eph 1:13-14)—and so on—then we do not have assurance. The warnings in Scripture are for those who, like the plants that spring up from the seeds that fell on rocky or weedy ground in the parable in Matt. 13, fail to mature and produce fruit. Although they may look like plants to an outside observer, in reality they lack either roots or nutrients because of a doubting or divided heart. They do not have the "real deal" growing in them. Like Judas, they appear to be alive and following Jesus, but they have failed to place their lives in His service. They retain their own desires, agendas, and control over their lives. And when the going gets rough, their true nature shows up. When a person is living in faith and submission to the Lord Jesus, h/she will still need to be exhorted and taught and even rebuked...but God holds that person and His Spirit continues to bring him or her back to face himself and convicts him to repent. There is, of course, still some tension as we hold these truths close to our hearts. God doesn't explain HOW it works. We can't make a formula that totally sums up how God "does" it. But we know what He says; we must embrace every word He has given us, and we have to plant ourselves on the FACT of His promises! Colleen | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1988 Registered: 4-2000 |
Grace is not like a box of candy that you send back if you don't want it. Grace is divine favor, an attitude of God's own heart. We cannot stop him from loving us, if He chooses to do so. Nor can we stop Him from giving us blessings of salvation, regeneration, justification, adoption, sanctification, and glorification. His purpose in us will certainly be fulfilled (Phil. 1:6; Eph. 1:11). If Jesus came to save everyone from their sins, everyone would be saved. Certainly, our God is powerful enough and big enough to save every single person who ever lived on this planet if that was His intent or plan. However, the Bible doesn't teach universalism. Instead, the angel of the Lord told Joseph in a dream about Jesus that "...he will save his people from their sins" (Matt.1:21 ESV). Later, in His high priestly prayer, Jesus prayed to the Father: "...to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life...I do ask in behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours...not one of them perished but the son of perdition [Judas], so that the Scripture would be fulfilled...Father, I believe that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me...O righteous Father, although the world has not known You, yet I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me; and I have made Your name known to them..." (Excerpts from Jesus' high priestly prayer in John 17). For His glory (which our finite wisdom doesn't comprehend), our sovereign God chooses, adopts, and seals through the Holy Spirit those who constitute His wonderful family. The design of God was not and cannot be frustrated by human unbelief. The sovereign God sovereignly sent his Son to atone for His people. Our election is in Christ. We are saved by him, in him, and for him. "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can ["can" denotes an inability whereas "may" would be a far less powerful word] come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father" (John 6:65 NASB). Notice that after Jesus indicated his particular atonement, many of his followers turned back "and no longer walked with him" (verse 66). After 2,000 years, it still turns people off today--even to the point of outright anger. In this regard, time hasn't changed human reactions to divine truth. "...I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy" (Romans 9:15,16 NASB). The Apostle Paul further stated that "just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will" (Eph. 1:4-5 NASB). These passages are a mere sampling of what Scripture reveals in regard to His particular atonement. Dead men cannot make themselves come alive. It is truly amazing that He would even choose one human being to be saved. After all, He doesn't owe us anything, and we certainly don't deserve His saving grace. On the other hand, many of our friends are left with a Christ who tried to save everybody but actually saved nobody. Those "whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified" (Romans 8:30 NASB). It's all about Him! We choose Him only because He has first chosen us. Soli Deo Gloria! Dennis Fischer | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1989 Registered: 4-2000 |
Correction: Inadvertently, I missed typing the word "not" when quoting John 17:9. Since such a typo makes a theological difference, Sylvia insisted that I make this correction. My apologies! Dennis Fischer (Message edited by Dennis on May 24, 2010) | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6250 Registered: 9-2006 |
The theology is faulty anyway, so I can't see why it helps to correct a typo. It does not properly address the love of God toward his creation as per IIPeter 3:9. Our own brother Ramone said something to the effect that we should feel and listen to the heart beat of Jesus. That was my introduction to the words 'heart beat of God.' He was listening to the heart beat of Jesus as he considered those around him. I myself too often grow angry, but if I just pull back and listen to the heart beat of Jesus, the anger soon sputters and dies, and I am again calm. I wanted to answer this kind of thing in anger, but I also want to listen to the heart beat of Jesus and try to see it through his eyes. Yes, God is sovereign, yes he knew us before we were ever conceived, and yet he died for the sins of the whole world, so it should be with fear and trembling, honesty and humble attitude that we handle his word of truth. John said, Behold, the Lamb of God which takes away the sins of the world, and yet we know there are those who will perish.It ought to sober us, and cause us renewed efforts to reach those who are without. Luke 13:34 reflects the heart beat of Jesus. I figure that often formers, when thinking about loved ones and friends still left behind, have a spirit of weeping come over them. It is those times when you are picking up the heart beat of Jesus. Do not mistake that for emotionalism. It is the Holy Spirit. It is impossible to walk in the flesh and hear the heart beat of Jesus. The theology presented above misappropriates the word of God by not taking in the whole word of God. River |
