| Author | Message | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 651 Registered: 5-2007 |
http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/commentaries/?action=getCommentaryText&cid=14&source=1&seq=i.69.5.2 Below is a text from the above link: What one may not ask for with respect to those whose "sin is unto death" is that they be given life apart from their repentance, confession and returning to following Christ. Prohibition of prayer in the Old Tes tament and Jewish literature roughly contemporaneous with 1 John is a sign of God's judgment on unrepentant sinners (compare Jer 7:16-17; 11:14-15). One can pray that unbelievers may repent and come to fel lowship with God. But if God were to forgive them as they persist in their sin, that would not be forgiveness: it would be denial of human sinful ness which, in the Elder's view, is an abhorrent lie. This passage then reflects the other side of John's belief that eternal life is received now: if there is life for believers even now, there is also judgment for unbelievers (Jn 3:16-17). And if the community serves as a vehicle for administering God's life to its members, then it also func tions to pronounce judgment. That the Johannine community under stood itself to function in just this way is suggested by the words with which the risen Jesus commissioned his disciples: "As the Father has sent me, I am sending you. . . . If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven" (Jn 20:21, 23). In any case, the primary will of God is to bring people to life (Jn 3:16), and this is the will of God that Jesus lives out. So too, our wills and purposes are to be one with God in this commission, to be agents of bringing God's forgiveness and eternal life to others. Needless to say, this commission can only be carried out with great humility, with the full recognition that the God who extends forgiveness through the church is a God who is "faithful and just and will forgive us our sins" (1 Jn 1:9), and with caution and pastoral discernment in situations that might be covered by the admonitions here. End text: J: Again, not so much support for once saved always saved. Here , I also see the authority granted to the church. jim02 | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1215 Registered: 6-2006  |
Jim, Would you explain your stance? Since I wasn't raised SDA I don't quite understand the idea of a person having to continually "save" their salvation. Or, how a person who has been counted as one of God's children could "lose" their salvation so easily. I don't really see what you're seeing in that commentary ~ The "Once saved always saved" isn't the point. It's once you're saved you're sealed and you HAVE eternal life. A person who might be "on fire" for the Lord and then leave and don't come back wasn't saved to begin with (I can't remember the exact text for that). God knows exactly who will be saved and who won't before anyone is even born... Rom 8:28 What are you looking for today?  Leigh Anne (Message edited by grace_alone on August 12, 2008) | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 652 Registered: 5-2007 |
Leigh Anne, I am jumping up and down on this bridge to see if it will hold my weight. I am in between churches and cannot establish a lock on. Why is that? Because I have not settled the question of salvation doctrine and that is holding up my transistion to another church. You wrote: "It's once you're saved you're sealed and you HAVE eternal life. A person who might be "on fire" for the Lord and then leave and don't come back wasn't saved to begin with not saved." I'm scratching my head I look at the following scriptures and it indicates that you can fall out of a saved relationship. 17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. 22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree! J: Then compare the above with the following: James 2: 14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. 18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. 19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. 20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"[e] and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. 25In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead. J: Thus , I am inclined to believe , the idea of once saved always saved is a very qualified statement. A) We can be lost after being saved. B) Faith is to be coupled with works. Thus, salvation does require more than the assertion of simply saying the prayer of acceptance. I am at a crossroads here. No decision is even possible yet. I am seriously looking at the Catholic faith. I am a baptised and confirmed Catholic from childhood till I was 18. So far , the Protestant faiths are all over the map and I can't get a sense of clarity on anything. Everyone has bits and pieces of well stated truths and positions, but the fact that there are multiple and conflicting authorities (between religons) makes it all but impossible to have a settled conviction as to where I am supposed to be. When people make global or gratuitous statements, alarm bells go off. Because , global statements almost always set aside the qualifiers which are the rest of the scriptures. So, not only do I have a problem with me personally, (I can't live up to half this stuff, I am a natural born legalist), I can't even establish a beach head with a church that speaks to me with wholistic conviction. This is not about lack of faith. It is about lack of direction. jim02 | ||
| ~angel~ Registered user Username: ~angel~ Post Number: 258 Registered: 3-2008 |
Jim you nned to go to: http://exadventist.com/Home/Audio/tabid/57/Default.aspx Listen to all of the audio you can from here. It will help you understand. Its great because It comes from someone who understands our side, the former sda side. They answer questions and teach knowing the questions we have and answer them in the tapes. I found it to be a HUGE help for me. I finally understood what was missing. I got it! I greatly recomend these to everyone that have questions reguarding our past beliefs. Also to go to the link I gave you from the church and search for sermons that you are questioning. Here it is also if anyone wants it: http://www.calvaryphx.com/media/mediastore/ I love pastor Mark Martin because he teaches in a way its easy to understand and comes from our same "past" background so he answers alot of questions in his sermons I have had. Also Greg Taylor and Dale Ratzlaf are great too. ~Angel~ | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2485 Registered: 10-2004  |
Jim, here is the text (I think!) that Leigh Anne was referencing, and it happens to come from the book of... 1 John!
As for the verse in 1 John 5, you are completely missing the context:
Notice that verse 18 says that those who have been born again ("born of God") do not "sin" (which could be referring to the sin "leading to death")--which means that those who have been born again do NOT lose their salvation--instead, it says that Jesus "keeps" them and the evil one can't touch them. Additionally, I have heard that the present, active tense for "sin" in these verses indicates a continual, habitual practice of sin (or, the "sin leading to death," in particular). Either way, the context makes it clear that true believers do not lose their salvation. Another interpretation is that the "sin leading to death" is not talking about salvation at all, but is instead talking about a sin that would lead to physical death--such as Paul talked about in 1 Corinthians 11:30. But notice that this does not mean that those people are lost--in fact, Paul says in verses 31-32 that these people that God killed for their sin, are saved (they're with Jesus in heaven!). Believers already have eternal life (1 John 5:13)! Eternal life can't end. Ever. It is unbelievers that are under condemnation and who have to worry about eternal death, or not having salvation. Jim, you say: "This is not about lack of faith." But do you have faith in Jesus to save you completely, apart from your works? Jeremy | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2486 Registered: 10-2004 |
Jim, you wrote: "Thus, salvation does require more than the assertion of simply saying the prayer of acceptance." Salvation has nothing to do with an "assertion" but has everything to do with being (literally, in our spirit) born again by God through faith in Jesus Christ--and at that moment we are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of the redemption of our bodies (see Ephesians 1:13-14 and Ephesians 4:30). The Holy Spirit Himself "guarantees" that we will be saved forever (see Ephesians 1:13-14). Jeremy (Message edited by jeremy on August 12, 2008) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 8564 Registered: 12-2003  |
Jim, Jeremy's right. The issue is being born again--not "sins". The reason these passages seem so confusing to us from SDA and Catholic (and some other as well) backgrounds is that we were taught that salvation involves our cooperation in committing ourselves to good works. If we persist in committing sin, we were taught, we fall from salvation. What John is saying, what Jesus said, and what Paul assiduously taught, is that we must be born again in order to see the kingdom of heaven (see John 3:3-6 for starters). Here's how I have come to understand the 1 John passage above. When we are born again, we are literally indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Ephesians 1 and 2 explain this phenomenon well. Romans 8 also explains it. This is the part that we missed in our background. Salvation isn't about our becoming righteous; it's about our being REBORN. When we are reborn, we are literally brought to spiritual life. We literally (not metaphorically) have the resurrection power and life of Jesus living in our still-sinful bodies. This life, in the person of the Holy Spirit, is OURS when we believe in Jesus. When the Holy Spirit brings us to life, we are no longer in sin. Sin is our natural state. We are born in sin. When we have Jesus living in us by His Spirit, we are now alive. This life is eternal. We cannot be unborn. Of course we still commit "sins". Romans 6-7 describes this struggle very well. It's inevitable, because we are still in our sinful bodies. Our spiritual life—God's literal life which makes our spirits alive—is eternal and forever. But our bodies are still mortal. So, according to Romans 7-8, our "job" as born again Christ-followers is to learn to live by the Spirit, submitting to Him and learning to yield to His direction. If we sin, that doesn't remove us from life. It just means we turn again to Jesus and yield to His Spirit and surrender our control and our "right" to our habits and impulses. When John says no one born of God "sins", but He who was born of God keeps him, he is saying that no one born of God lives in that unregenerate, sin-that-leads-to-death state anymore. The Lord Jesus Himself keeps us alive in Him. Jesus said that ANYONE who believes in Him will have eternal life. Unbelief is the sin that leads to death. Jesus said, in Matthew 12, that the unpardonable sin is the sin against the Holy Spirit. That was the sin of the Pharisees when they looked at Jesus casting out demons and accused Him of casting them out by the power of Satan. The unpardonable sin involves four "steps": 1) a clear knowledge of who Christ is; 2) knowledge that the Holy Spirit is working through Jesus; 3) a willful rejection of these facts, and then 4) slanderously attributing the work of the Holuy Spirit in Christ to the power of Satan. (Thanks to Wayne Grudem, Bible Doctrtine, p. 223) In other words, the sin that leads to death is the sin of knowing that Jesus is the Son of God, that He is the Savior, that His Spirit is God's Spirit, and refusing to acknowledge God. Romans 1 describes the sin that incurs God's wrath as being the sin of refusing to honor Him as God and to give thanks, the sin of exchanging the glory of the incorruptible God for images of creation, the sin of exchanging the truth of God for a lie, and the sin of not retaining a knowledge of God (see vv. 18-32). So, the sin that leads to death is unbelief, the refusal to trust the Lord Jesus. It is the sin of believing a lie, of retaining control. If we do not trust the Lord Jesus, we are not born again. When we believe Jesus, we are sealed with the Holy Spirit, and we have, literally, the life of God. We do not continue to live in sin. We may commit sins, but we are no longer dead in sin. We can actually repent and turn to Jesus and grow. When we are born again and commit "sins", these do not lead to death. We are not comfortable living in self-indulgence and sin. The Holy Spirit does not let us rest. We do not "fall out of salvation". We are saved by Jesus directly, and He, directly, keeps us in Himself. He makes us alive. He keeps us secure. Our "sins" in the flesh are things He convicts us of; He continues to complete what He begins in us (Phil 1:6). But these sins do not cause us to be "unborn". Until a person places his faith/belief in Jesus, none of this makes sense. But when we KNOW that Jesus is ALL we need, He has chosen us, called us, brought us to Himself, given us His life, sealed us with His Spirit--then these things have perspective. Our good and bad decisions are not part of our salvation or of our sanctification. Our only command from God is to believe--and having believed, to continue to honor Him and give thanks, offering ourselves as living sacrifices. We learn to know His voice, and He leads us deeper and deeper into trust in Him. Colleen | ||
| Animal Registered user Username: Animal Post Number: 139 Registered: 7-2008 |
Colleen.... If you were the pastor of my church, I wouldnt miss a sermon. You have such a nice and clear way of explaining things. Give yourself a raise. You deserve one ....Animal | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 655 Registered: 5-2007 |
Jeremy , Jim, you say: "This is not about lack of faith." But do you have faith in Jesus to save you completely, apart from your works? J: I know that we are saved soley as a gift from God. I surmise the works are the product of santifacation , the outworking of HIs Spirit. Yes , Jeremy, I do believe in the Power of Christ to save to the uttermost. Colleen, Thank You for spelling it out. Angel, You keep right on reminding me. I saved those links, I plan to get to them real soon. Going through some rough days right now. Not thinking real clear. jim02 | ||
| Animal Registered user Username: Animal Post Number: 141 Registered: 7-2008 |
Dear Lord, I ask that you be with Jim in a special way. Remind him of Your love for him. Give him strength to live each day for You.Give him eyes to see the Holy Spirit leading him moment by moment. Give him a special blessing this week. Amen ...Animal | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 3325 Registered: 9-2006  |
Amen Animal. | ||
| Jeremiah Registered user Username: Jeremiah Post Number: 367 Registered: 1-2004  |
Jim, If you've been considering Catholicism, I think I can understand some of the reasons. It is indeed very attractive to have clarity in doctrine as opposed to having to pick and choose from all over the map. I would suggest Eastern Orthodoxy. It has every bit as strong of a connection with historic Christianity and it lacks the legalistic tendency of Roman Catholicism. Even the Pope has to admit Orthodoxy is the historic Church, though he thinks they lack some things. I have found tremendous clarity in the Orthodox Church. There isn't any make-it-up-as-you-go-along confusion, or wondering what truth is. The services are beautiful, every bit as reverent as the pre-Vatican II mass. The guidance you find in your spiritual life in Orthodoxy is really something. Here's the commentary in the Orthodox Study Bible on 1 John 5:16;
Jeremiah | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 3326 Registered: 9-2006 |
Jeremiah, My Momma used to say "Its a poor duck that won't quack for his own pond" and I respect your quackin, but if all I had to choose from is two churches that are so steeped in tradition that the Holy Spirit himself couldn't get in the door, I think I would just go cut my throat and be done with it. An old Pentecostal preacher went down to the catlics and eastern orthodonatals to preach and come back and complained to the Lord because they wouldn't let him in to preach, the Lord said "What are you complaining for? "I been trying to get in there for years!!" River | ||
| Honestwitness Registered user Username: Honestwitness Post Number: 666 Registered: 7-2005  |
Jim, I like this verse that the Apostle Paul wrote. 1 Corinthians 2:2 "For I decided to know nothing among you except Christ and him crucified." When I get confused, I run back to that verse like running back to home base. Honestwitness | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 657 Registered: 5-2007 |
Honestwitness, You are right, sometimes , it is best to know nothing, (make no additional complications or judgments), to simply be at peace fully focused on Christ. The draw of a church, for me, is hard to describe. It cuts across several aspects. I grew up as a Catholic, and attended Catholic school in the 1st, 3rd and 4th grades. I left the Catholic faith at 18 to become SDA. I have always missed certain aspects of Catholic life. I remember the ambiance, that sense of awe. I recall the nuns, they were always a mystery to me. But I respected them. They were loving, yet disciplined, none of the nonsense we see in public schools. There was order. Got spanked when I was in first grade by a nun ! Talk about hurt feelings Sister Collet. She taught me to read and write. She spot run, Run Spot Run! Good memories....... Communion, that was a really big event. All dressed up. The smell of the perfumed candles. Confirmation. I picked the name Joseph. Sunday Mass. The Choir, the stain glass windows, The tall pillars (Old Classic Gothic design) in Louisville KY. St. Martins. and St. Boniface. Christmas and Easter as a Catholic was spectacular. Inspiring and real as any experience I have ever known. That is connecting. Catholics on the surface may seem leagalistic and cermonial. But inside the life of a Catholic is a level of abiding faith and meditation that is rarely seen elsewhere. Sort of the standard that I have carried with me all my life. A measure so to speak. When I am in a Church, it is almost impossible not to think about how it used to be long long ago. When I knew nothing but Christ alone. And yes , it was Him crucified, right up there above the center of the altar. We experineced and practiced somber respect in church. Rarely see that these days. It is a lost concept. That was the reality of being a Catholic. Tradition, ceremony , meditation all were means by which there was actualization of faith. Doctrine , confusion and falling away did not happen until I was inculcated by a SDA series. When you are 18. you think you know it all. You think you can answer all the questions, that you know the truth, over confidence, it's own arrogance.. Over 3 decades of wandering. I realize that some folks may be thinking that my interest in researching and considering the Catholic faith is a fall back rebound reaction on my part. Be that as it may. I will say, that I have not made a decision about this . I am studying the matter and praying on it. I am drifting, and I need a church home, I need it now, not months from now , but NOW. I wait upon God, though I wonder , is He waiting on me to start moving? I cannot tell you precisely what I am looking for , or even how I will know. But, I believe, in time, I will know where He wants me. I just got to get there to find out. Jeremiah, Thank You for your viewpoint and suggestion. Thank You Animal and River. I appreciate it very much. jim02 | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 3329 Registered: 9-2006 |
Jimo, My wife used to tell about getting whacked by the Nun's so you brought a smile to my face there as you related about getting whacked, yep they are pretty no nun sense, maybe that's why they are called nun's?Heh heh. I hope Jeremiah doesn't come after me for yanking his chain. Ha! River | ||
| Jeremiah Registered user Username: Jeremiah Post Number: 368 Registered: 1-2004 |
River, Jim described the type of spirituality found in the Orthodox Church fairly well in recounting his experience as a Catholic. In my experience the spiritual life in Orthodoxy is deeper than I found in my Catholic adventures. While it's true that you wouldn't be invited to preach in an Orthodox Church, I think that you would find the Holy Spirit is there, if you were so adventurous as to attend a service or two. Find a church that has services in English. Pentecostals may relate better to Orthodoxy than the average Protestant does because of how experience-oriented Orthodoxy is. Jeremiah | ||
| Javagirl Registered user Username: Javagirl Post Number: 557 Registered: 6-2005  |
Jim, A couple thoughts. If you are going to a divorce care group, consider the church that sponsors it. Community is the key I attended Alpha, a 10 week christianity 101 type course, that was great for a former adventist on just the basics of the gospel. Google Alpha course in your area, and consider attending the church that sponsors it. Community is the key. Look for a mens bible study from a local church. Community Bible Study (CBS) and Bible Study Fellowship (BSF) can be googled for your area to find a local study. Then attend the church that sponsors it, or find out where the men whose faith you admire attend church. Community is the key. Join a local food bank, a prison ministry, whatever. Community is the key. Do you see a trend here?? God calls us to join together with a family of believers, where we can be transparent, pray for one another, be healed, and use our God given gifts. Go get involved. You are not making a commitment to join, just become regularly involved in a church. Do something till GOd tells you to quit. . Spoken in love from someone who knows how to isolate! | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 3333 Registered: 9-2006 |
Jeremiah, I was only yankin yer chain, you oughtta be proud to have yer chain yanked, at least you know SOMEBODY likes you. I would like to attend church with you, but I ain't goin in by myself, you betcha, I don't think there is one of them churches around here anyhow. You can't drive a mile without runnin over a baptist though, but they are not even fit fer road kill, no meat on'em!! You and me could go fishen for'em fer sport though, but its catch and release, ain't no meat on'em nohow like I said. The waters jest full of,em out here though, just throw yer hook at any creek er pond and you are gonna catch'em. Yer pal. River | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2487 Registered: 10-2004 |
Colleen, thanks for your post. You explained very well what I was trying to say. Jeremy | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 658 Registered: 5-2007 |
Javagirl, I am hopeful that the course at a Baptist church will at minimum help me to make new friends and to help me to connect and interact more with others. Isolation and disconnect are real problems for me. Being in a state of limbo, I feel like I am in an emotional cage. My wife and I discussed the separation in general terms. She says she will know in a few months which way it will go for us. I cannot say I am encouraged, but I am not without hope. Meanwhile, I agree, making contact, getting involved in outside exposure, certainly has to be better than the vacuum I am dealing with. jim02 | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 3336 Registered: 9-2006 |
Amen Jimo. Rooting for your team every day. Through these hard trials we grow and are able to lift up others who are hurting. Go for it. It is only through our own pain and suffering that we can be touched by the pain and suffering of others. River | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 642 Registered: 7-2000 |
I'll just put a plug in here for the Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod. Many aspects of doctrine and worship are similar to Roman Catholicism without some of the extremes such as veneration of the saints and worship of Mary. I think Jim would be quite comfortable with their view of salvation. Jim, you should check out the Lutheran forum over on carm.org | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 660 Registered: 5-2007 |
Loneviking. I will do so. Thank You. I have a 900 page catechism I purchased recently. I am attempting to approach the Catholic faith in a balanced and fair manner. No hearsay, no one sided viewpoints. If there is a truth to be discovered, with God's guidance, this is the only way I know to learn for myself. jim02 | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 662 Registered: 5-2007 |
I could not find a Luthern link on CARM. So I went to other sites. Here's the thing. I don't agree with some of the techings and practices of the Catholic Church. Some are hard to accept, others seem contradictory to scripture, others end up simply being false or exagerated charges. What carries a lot of weight with me is that it is the oldest continuous Christian body out there. (I am sure someone will tell me technically that is not true.) In searching for a Church, a sense of authenticity, authority, continuity become paramount. In the study I have seen so far, the Catholic faith is not static. It does evolve, but it maintains it's core mission. I have not arrived at a decision. It is not something I can do in a rush, not with so many considerations and multiple claims of authority. I just cannot imagine that God expects us to wade through endless debates trying to find where we belong. The idea of which church is right is proving to be a matter of opinion in verity. You cannot prove anything objectively. Every argument, debate etc , can appear logical , sound and reasonable. Until another authority presents their view. This is not a give it up attitude. Perhaps it has a shade of agnositic attitude. But that is because you get to a point where you realize, there is no traction possible when you are double minded between leadership loyaltys. jim02 | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 643 Registered: 7-2000 |
Jim, you have to enter the forums on CARM. There is a specific forum for Lutherans. |
