| Author | Message | ||
| Setufree314 Registered user Username: Setufree314 Post Number: 14 Registered: 10-2016 |
Folks, what is the gospel? Keep in mind that Paul said if we preached "another gospel" other than the one he and the other apostles preached we should be accursed. See Gal 1:6-9 Now, in general the gospel is "the birth, life, death and resurrection of Christ" as the son of man. But that's just a basic understanding. The true gospel must answer the following question: According to the book of the law, no innocent person is allowed to be punished for the guilt of another [read Deut. 24:16; note also Ezk. 18:20.] Since Christ committed no sin, the big question is: how could God punish Him on the cross for our sins? In other words, how can God justify sinners on the basis of what Christ did and still maintain His integrity to His own law which condemns us to death? | ||
| Setufree314 Registered user Username: Setufree314 Post Number: 19 Registered: 10-2016 |
"how can God justify sinners on the basis of what Christ did and still maintain His integrity to His own law which condemns us to death?" Anyone? | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1878 Registered: 7-2003  |
I think the Apostle Paul is better qualified to answer than I am.
| ||
| Setufree314 Registered user Username: Setufree314 Post Number: 21 Registered: 10-2016 |
Yes, Romans chapter 5 is one of the best chapters in the whole Bible, but it doesn't answer my question. Here's the question again: "how can God justify sinners on the basis of what Christ did and still maintain His integrity to His own law which condemns us to death?" | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1879 Registered: 7-2003 |
Romans Chapter 5 directly answers the question of how God saved us through Jesus and how that truth interacts with the Law.....but I will grant that it does not answer in a way that someone in a SDA mindset would appreciate. Romans chapter 5 does not present the Law as being eternal. It does not present the Law as being a transcript of God's character. It does not present God as somehow being subservient to the Law. Romans chapter 5 shows that the Law was not in place before Moses and that the Law only had the power to condemn. In fact, the Law came in so that that transgression would increase. Romans Chapter 5 also makes it clear that we are saved apart from the Law because Jesus, as the new Adam, is both our substitute and our representative. That's how God accomplished our salvation. I would suggest your original question as formulated is flawed by some underlying SDA assumptions. | ||
| Mjcmcook Registered user Username: Mjcmcook Post Number: 2007 Registered: 2-2011  |
Chris~ Excellent!!! ~mj~ | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 15440 Registered: 12-2003  |
To piggy-back on what Chris wrote above I want to point out that Romans 3:20-28 also explains how God justifies sinners on the basis of what Christ did. Here is the passage:
The Father, who sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins (1 Jn. 4:10), sovereignly ordained that His Son, the almighty, eternal God the Son, would come and take on human flesh. According to Hebrews 2 we learn that He had to be human to be our substitute, because human sin had to be atoned by human blood. The death of an animal or angel or other creature could not atone for human sin. Concurrently, our Substitute had to be God in the flesh, fully God without giving up any of His divine attributes including omnipresence and omniscience and omnipotence (Col. 2:9). He had to be God because only our Creator could take responsibility for resolving the impact of His creatures' sins, and He had to be God because the substitutionary sacrifice had to be infinite. The Sacrifice had to be able to take the imputed sin of the whole world into His flesh and die the required death on the cross. Only God could take the sin of the world onto Himself. It is a mystery that is not explained, but it is stated over and over. God is just because the Lord Jesus came, fully God, and clothed Himself in human flesh and died a human death to atone for human sin. Only the God-Man could do such a thing. We are saved entirely on the basis of belief in the Lord Jesus' propitiation for our sin. Colleen | ||
| Setufree314 Registered user Username: Setufree314 Post Number: 32 Registered: 10-2016 |
Chris: "Romans Chapter 5 also makes it clear that we are saved apart from the Law because Jesus, as the new Adam, is both our substitute and our representative." Yes, we are not saved by our law keeping. Why? We are never measuring up to the righteousness in the law. Again, none of you know the answer to my question, right? That means that none of you understand the gospel. If you do not understand the gospel then you are presenting "another gospel", which is really no gospel at all. Let's try again: "how can God justify sinners on the basis of what Christ did and still maintain His integrity to His own law which condemns us to death?" (Message edited by setufree314 on October 14, 2016) | ||
| Setufree314 Registered user Username: Setufree314 Post Number: 33 Registered: 10-2016 |
Mjcmcook to Chris: "Excellent!!!" No, not excellent because he didn't answer my question. | ||
| Setufree314 Registered user Username: Setufree314 Post Number: 34 Registered: 10-2016 |
Colleen: "our Substitute had to be God in the flesh, fully God without giving up any of His divine attributes including omnipresence and omniscience and omnipotence (Col. 2:9)" As God, sure, He didn't give up His divine attribtues, but as "the son of man" He did: When Christ became a man in the incarnation He had to give up not His divinity, but His divine prerogatives, in other words, the independent use of His divinity. Even His God-consciousness had to be given up. Jesus discovered He was God only by revelation. He was not God-conscious as a baby. He had to grow up in knowledge. He had to grow up in everything because He had given up the independent use of His divinity and was made in all things like unto us (Heb. 2:17). Therefore, He was totally God-dependent all through His earthly ministry. John 5:30 says, “I can do nothing of myself.” John 6:57 says, “I live by the Father.” See also John 8:28 and John 14:10. All these texts state very clearly that Christ was totally God-dependent. | ||
| Setufree314 Registered user Username: Setufree314 Post Number: 35 Registered: 10-2016 |
Colleen: "The Sacrifice had to be able to take the imputed sin of the whole world into His flesh and die the required death on the cross." This is called vicarious atonement, however it is not the gospel. The gospel answers the justice of God's law and gives Him the legal right to set you and I free from under "the cruse of the law". Turn to Ez 18:20 "The soul who sins shall die." Other versions say "the person who sin shall die" So God's law requires the death of the sinner in order for His justice to be maintained. "The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself." In other words you can't transfer guilt from the sinner to righteous. That's unjust. Christ cannot pay for your sins because He didn't commit them. To charge Christ with sin is a lie because He never sinned. If Christ did sin (and He didn't) then He couldn't be our Savior. So, now you have a conundrum. | ||
| Setufree314 Registered user Username: Setufree314 Post Number: 37 Registered: 10-2016 |
Again, the question: "How can God justify sinners on the basis of what Christ did and still maintain His integrity to His own law which condemns us to death?" Maybe some clues might help you guys to answer the above question? These are key verses: 2 Cor 5:14 NKJV "One (Christ as the son of man) died for all, then all died" Rom 6:6 "...We know that our old self (our Adamic fallen life) was crucified with Him (Christ as the son of man) so that the body ruled by sin might be done away" NIV Rom 7:4 "you also (our Adamic fallen life) were made to die to the Law (it demanded our death) through the body of Christ..." NASB Did you get that truth? When Christ died as the son of man, all men were in Him so that when He died they died too! See 2 Cor 5:14 Specifically, our old self was crucified with Christ so that our bodies, ruled by indwelling sin, would come to an end. See Rom 6:6 Therefore "You" also died through the body of Christ because the law demanded your death. See Rom 7:4 So then, "in Christ" my old, sinful Adamic life died in the humanity of Christ as the son of man. Therefore God's law has been satisfied and the justice of God's law has been maintained. This then gives God the legal right to remove you and I from under law to under grace. "In Christ" God's law has been satisfied. This is the gospel! This is the truth as it is "in Christ Jesus". (Message edited by setufree314 on October 14, 2016) | ||
| Setufree314 Registered user Username: Setufree314 Post Number: 38 Registered: 10-2016 |
So then, "in Christ" my old, sinful Adamic life died in the humanity of Christ as the son of man. Therefore God's law has been satisfied and the justice of God's law has been maintained. This then gives God the legal right to remove you and I from under law to under grace. "In Christ" God's law has been satisfied." Does the Apostle Paul agree with the above? Absolutely: Rom 7:6 "But now we have been delivered from the law, having died (in Christ) to what we were held by...." Please note that God's law was not abolished. If God's law was abolished then our old self need not have died in Christ. Further more Christ need not of died. We died in Christ because the justice of the law demanded our death. The law is satisfied. No longer can the law say "obey and live, disobey and die" because we have been delivered from under law. | ||
| Setufree314 Registered user Username: Setufree314 Post Number: 39 Registered: 10-2016 |
As I stated before: "No longer can the law say "obey and live, disobey and die" because we have been delivered from under law." To remain "under law" means death - the 2nd death. The believer has accepted Christ's doing & dying. He has gone from under law to under grace. In the judgment Christ will represent the believer righteous and blameless "in Himself" before God's law. The unbeliever is still under law. In the judgment the unbeliever will have to stand before God's law. What will be the verdict of the law? You must die the 2nd death!!! Summary: The believer has been delivered from under law. He is perfect "in Christ". The unbeliever is still under law. He has rejected his position "in Christ". Therefore in the judgment the unbeliever will have to stand before God's law without an intercessor (Christ, our Great High Priest). Under law the unbeliever will be condemned to death. |
