| Author | Message | ||
| Maggie_b Registered user Username: Maggie_b Post Number: 12 Registered: 5-2016 |
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monophysitism Who is sufficient for these things? Or smart enough? Not I. | ||
| Maggie_b Registered user Username: Maggie_b Post Number: 13 Registered: 5-2016 |
Res said: Posted on Saturday, May 21, 2016 - 3:02 pm: By now, the alert reader should have picked up on a subtle and obscure but continuing theme, particularly as applied to the Monophysitism crisis that led to the schism at the 452 AD Council of Chalcedon. Which all by itself, precluded Papal Supremacy. Anyone got any guesses? You mean you guys are going to force me to spell it out? Okay, here goes: Rome and the Western Churches: Language, Latin. Constantinople and the Eastern Churches: Language, Greek; Alexandrian/Coptic Church: language, Copt; India/Syriac-Malekara Church: language, Hindi; Ethiopian Orthodox Church: language, Ge'ez; Jerusalem Church: language, Hebrew/Aramaic. Famous Italian semiotician Umberto Eco "is best known for his 1980 historical mystery novel Il nome della rosa (The Name of the Rose), an intellectual mystery combining semiotics in fiction, biblical analysis, medieval studies and literary theory." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umberto_Eco If you feel like wading into this densely-academic "novel;" and if you can decipher it's repeated rabbit-trails into dozens of different obscure and ancient languages; his ancient "Sherlock Holmes" character unearths the following maxim: "The etymology of language and semiotic-dynamism shapes and controls theological evolution." Lets review our findings in light of that horrifying mouthful: - Greek: Eastern Christianity's mysticism/anti-Gnosticsm/"Incarnationism"; - Latin: Western Christianity's scholasticism/legal-judicial theories of Salvation; - Coptic, Ge'ez, Hindi: Oriental Orthodoxy's Monophysitism; - Hebrew: Jerusalem Church that stagnated and DOA. But wait! It's been revived! And Judaism has been revived in its own Nation!; - German/English/French: Protestantism's Sola Scriptura and Salvation by Faith alone. Would Eco be proud of me, or WHAT? Any takers? Or are y'all just disgusted? (I have that same cowboy drawl they have on Lonesome Dove). Shoot, I just realized I have listening to the Rolling Stones for over an hour. ---------------- I'd be a taker if I had a clue...help!  (Message edited by Maggie_b on May 21, 2016) | ||
| Resjudicata Registered user Username: Resjudicata Post Number: 703 Registered: 4-2014 |
Maggie, It boils down to the fact that Rome spoke Latin. Latin was the minority language in the Roman Empire. The majority of Christians lived in the East, and spoke Greek. The Oriental Orthodox spoke a variety of non-Greek/Latin languages. How was Rome supposed to control Christianity when it spoke a language understood by a minority of Christians? How could it achieve and maintain "Superiority/Supremacy" when Latin wasn't even the majority language in Western Christianity? And how could the Latin-speaking Pope - by some miracle - have maintained this superiority/supremacy when the Greek-speaking Capital of the Roman Empire and the center of Christianity was 900 miles away? How could the Latin-speaking Pope of Rome have controlled the Hindi-speaking Christians of India, more than 3,000 miles away from Rome? The Copt-speaking Christians of Alexandria, more than 900 miles away? The United States of America cannot control Afghanistan and Iraq, with the benefit of the internet and fast air-travel. How was the Pope supposed to do better, when it took two-years round trip between Rome and Constantinople; and between Rome and Alexandria? Where nobody spoke Latin? In light of all of the history already presented, there is NO WAY that the Pope could have instituted Sunday Worship, when both Bacchiochi and Ellen White said he did. Neither of them ever considered this fatal language barrier to Papal Supremacy. I was forced to come to terms with this insurmountable barrier to Papal Supremacy during my six months in Greece. These language differences led directly to the Monophysitism crisis of 452 AD, when Christianity began fragmenting. Everyone now agrees that this controversy was caused solely by Christians speaking different languages. It caused the first "split" in Christianity. It was a crushing, mortal blow to Papal Supremacy because of the importance of Alexandria. Neither Ellen or Bacchiochi ever addressed these issues. (Message edited by Resjudicata on May 21, 2016) (Message edited by Resjudicata on May 21, 2016) | ||
| Resjudicata Registered user Username: Resjudicata Post Number: 704 Registered: 4-2014 |
Worse, the widening-conflict between the Latin-speaking church of Rome; and the Greek-speaking center of Christianity in Constantinople (which was also the capital of the Roman Empire); led to a series of smaller schisms that were temporarily repaired, prior to the permanent rupture in 1054. In that year, the Patriarch of Constantinople excommunicated the Papacy. This was 500 years before the Protestant Reformation! 452 AD was bad enough: 25 percent of Ancient Christianity (and all-important Alexandria) went its own way. 1054 AD was a devastating, fatal, irreparable blow to Papal Supremacy: The Capital of the Roman Empire; the majority of Christians; and the geographical and cultural center of the Roman Empire broke away permanently from Rome. Neither Ellen nor Bacchiochi mention this Great Schism, or the linguistic differences that led to it. | ||
| Maggie_b Registered user Username: Maggie_b Post Number: 14 Registered: 5-2016 |
Thanks so much for responding, Res--I need to read/think about this lots more, obviously! Have to go some place right now, but let me ask you this before I go: Would the world be a different place if Augustine's Greek teacher hadn't beat him? Res said: "The etymology of language and semiotic-dynamism shapes and controls theological evolution." (Message edited by Maggie_b on May 21, 2016) | ||
| Resjudicata Registered user Username: Resjudicata Post Number: 705 Registered: 4-2014 |
Maggie_b asked: "Would the world be a different place if Augustine's Greek teacher hadn't beat him?" Ha! You just proved my point! "Augustine (Aurelius Augustinus) was one of the greatest theologians of Western Christianity. (In his day the Mediterranean world consisted of an Eastern, Greek-speaking half and a Western, Latin-speaking half, with different ways of looking at things, and different habits of thought.) .... He was from the beginning a brilliant student, with an eager intellectual curiosity, but he never mastered Greek -- he tells us that his first Greek teacher was a brutal man who constantly beat his students, and Augustine rebelled and refused to study. By the time he realized that he really needed to know Greek, it was too late; and although he acquired a smattering of the language, he was never really at home in it. However, his mastery of Latin was another matter. He became an expert both in the eloquent use of the language and in the use of clever arguments to make his points." http://justus.anglican.org/resources/bio/50.html See how the obvious language differences led to the continuous splits between Rome and the rest of Christianity, and to the impossibility of Papal Supremacy/Superiority? Adventism is totally-dependent on Papal Supremacy for its core doctrines: a). The Pope was supposedly able to single-handedly cause Sabbath Abandonment; b). The Papacy is supposedly the eschatological AntiChrist that changed "laws" (by supposedly being the cause of Sabbath abandonment); c). Adventism is the "Remnant Church" that has restored the Sabbath because it has the "spirit of Prophecy." Papal Supremacy never happened. It couldn't have happened. The language differences among Christians were just too profound and unbridgeable. Thank You! | ||
| Resjudicata Registered user Username: Resjudicata Post Number: 706 Registered: 4-2014 |
Maggie B, I've answered your question, now you answer mine: Why did Eco have so many paragraphs written mainly in Latin, but cleverly interspersed with frisky haiku couplets written in Koine Greek, suburban Coptic and Ge'ez, in "The Name of the Rose?" Was he merely being a clever and impish naughty boy; or was he foreshadowing a subtle theory that Papal Superiority was a fraudulent tower of Babel, built on a base of linguistic sand? | ||
| Resjudicata Registered user Username: Resjudicata Post Number: 707 Registered: 4-2014 |
Here's his lame excuse: “A narrator should not supply interpretations of his work; otherwise he would have not written a novel, which is a machine for generating interpretations.” Ha! Talk about a tautology! C'mon Maggie, I expect you to come up with a better explanation than THAT! | ||
| Maggie_b Registered user Username: Maggie_b Post Number: 15 Registered: 5-2016 |
Res said: "Why did Eco have so many paragraphs written mainly in Latin, but cleverly interspersed with frisky haiku couplets written in Koine Greek, suburban Coptic and Ge'ez, in 'The Name of the Rose'" Trailing far behind you.... To provide a Rosetta Stone to unravel an ancient mystery. | ||
| Maggie_b Registered user Username: Maggie_b Post Number: 16 Registered: 5-2016 |
...for those who have ears to hear.... | ||
| Resjudicata Registered user Username: Resjudicata Post Number: 708 Registered: 4-2014 |
Remember, it was a Monk who worked as a medieval Sherlock Holmes. So of course there were all kinds of false clues that led to dead-ends. He was just being frisky and taunting us. | ||
| Resjudicata Registered user Username: Resjudicata Post Number: 709 Registered: 4-2014 |
Just the facts, Ma'am. | ||
| Maggie_b Registered user Username: Maggie_b Post Number: 17 Registered: 5-2016 |
Jorge, I mean. In that face, deformed by hatred of philosophy, I saw for the first time the portrait of the Antichrist, who does not come from the tribe of Judas, as his heralds have it, or from a far country. The Antichrist can be born from piety itself, from excessive love of God or of the truth, as the heretic is born from the saint and the possessed from the seer. Fear prophets, “Adso”, and those prepared to die for the truth, for as a rule they make many others die with them, often before them, at times instead of them. Jorge did a diabolical thing because he loved his truth so lewdly that he dared anything in order to destroy falsehood. | ||
| Maggie_b Registered user Username: Maggie_b Post Number: 18 Registered: 5-2016 |
Res said: "medieval Sherlock Holmes" Keep in mind that Arthur Conan Doyle was a spiritualist who fell for the Cottingley Fairies. Sometimes the facts aren't enough | ||
| Maggie_b Registered user Username: Maggie_b Post Number: 19 Registered: 5-2016 |
(Can anyone get html to work?) | ||
| Resjudicata Registered user Username: Resjudicata Post Number: 710 Registered: 4-2014 |
It's the "Name of the Rose" that inspired me to look for subtle clues, about what REALLY happened to the Sabbath. I wanted the whole truth and nothing but the truth. There's just one more area that is being researched, getting ready to go into Version 11.0 "Lying for God." The Protagonist in "The Name of the Rose" was a philosophy-loving monk. He was no spiritualist. That lends itself to the next area for dissection. It is about the "God-Fearing Gentiles" that came to hear Paul and the Apostles preach in the Synagogues on the Sabbath. Who WERE those people? Adventists use those proof-texts to demonstrate that early Christians were going to the Synagogue, and kept the Sabbath. That is not at all what was going on. Much modern research has been done on the "God-Fearing Gentiles" that habituated the Synagogues, and some of them indeed were there to keep the Sabbath. But they were not Christians. They were not Jews either. And they weren't entirely Pagan. You will be shocked when you read the whole story. Is this a holistic and tight analysis with a few tidy exceptions, or was it a monument on a darkling plain, where ignorant armies clashed by night? Ask yourself that question. The answer will fascinate you. (Message edited by Resjudicata on May 21, 2016) | ||
| Resjudicata Registered user Username: Resjudicata Post Number: 711 Registered: 4-2014 |
"The etymology of language and semiotic-dynamism shapes and controls theological evolution." That was the theme of the final few paragraphs of my thesis in Athens, and the conclusion of a new Chapter that I wrote for "Lying for God," Version 10.0. It was the "Miracle on the Areopagus." Dionysius the Areopagite was one of the Judges on Paul's case that day. As a result of Paul's soaring rhetoric, he converted to Christianity and later became the Second Bishop of Athens. And just think, Apollonious Molon of Rhodes declared that Jews were not capable of grasping Aristotle's tri-part conventions of Classical Rhetoric. Paul became one of ancient Greece's rare "Attic Orators" that day. His speech in Acts 17 is engraved on a plaque in full on Mars Hill, the only Greek classical rhetoric that has earned such a singular distinction. He shape-shifted from being a Hebrew lawyer on that spot of rock; to becoming one of Ancient Greece's Immortal Ones. He had been blinded by the Son on the Damascus Road. I'll post it if you want. | ||
| Maggie_b Registered user Username: Maggie_b Post Number: 20 Registered: 5-2016 |
Res said: "He shape-shifted from being a Hebrew lawyer on that spot of rock; to becoming one of Ancient Greece's Immortal Ones. He had been blinded by the Son on the Damascus Road. I'll post it if you want." __________________________ Yes, please do. I'm in way over my head, so drowning is now the next logical step. And anyway, I like to be shocked. Elaine Pagels suggested that Paul was a proto-gnostic, so maybe those "unusual" Pagan-ish people in Greece were primed to be kindled by his spiritual philosophy? I have no idea what to make of the "monument on the darkling plain question," but I promise I'll ask myself. Why don't we know about that plaque on Mars Hill? | ||
| Maggie_b Registered user Username: Maggie_b Post Number: 21 Registered: 5-2016 |
Further to what I said about, "primed to be kindled," these Greeks: "spent their time in nothing else but to tell or hear some new thing” (Acts 17:21). So, at the very least, this would have been one of Paul's better audiences, might we say? | ||
| Resjudicata Registered user Username: Resjudicata Post Number: 712 Registered: 4-2014 |
Maggie_b asked: "Why don't we know about that plaque on Mars Hill?" https://neelywang.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/athens_mars-hilltxt.jpg |
