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Maggie_b
Registered user
Username: Maggie_b
Post Number: 6
Registered: 5-2016
| | Posted on Saturday, May 21, 2016 - 1:41 pm: |     |
Amazon reader review:
Clearly printed on the front cover, and on the third and fourth pages of this book, is "The Pontifical Gregorian University Press, Rome 1977." However, the book appears to be self-published. The author was certainly aware of this as he stated elsewhere that the Pontifical Gregorian University Press "closed down about 20 years ago." (Endtimes Issues Newsletter, No. 160).
The author appears to be claiming approval of the contents of his book by the Catholic Church. "Anti-Judaism and the Origin of Sunday," an excerpt from Mr. Bacchiocchi's doctorial dissertation, was apparently given an "IMPRIMI POTEST" ("it can be printed") in 1975 (see Newsletter No. 160). Yet, on the fourth page of this book is printed "IMPRIMATUR" ("let it be printed"). Further, if the book had been approved, why was there no "NIHIL OBSTAT" ("nothing stands in the way")?
"The protocols regarding the Imprimatur require a new one for every new edition, each new language a text is published in. It certainly does not apply to an expanded version of a text that contains new information and new assertions regarding the subject at hand." See Stephen Korsman, Sabbath Keepers.
Samuele Bacchiocchi passed away in December, 2008. I sincerely hope Mr. Bacchiocchi's Estate will clear this up if the book continues to be published.
Mr. Bacchiocchi's arguments regarding Colossians 2:16-17 are not made until the Appendix of the book. If the reader gets that far, these arguments do not convince.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/R3G66XJNGYZW5E/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_viewpnt?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B00JD0LUFM#R3G66XJNGYZW5E |
Resjudicata
Registered user
Username: Resjudicata
Post Number: 697
Registered: 4-2014
| | Posted on Saturday, May 21, 2016 - 1:44 pm: | |
"One must ask themselves, if this book truly proves and advocates Seventh Day Sabbath, why would it receive this Catholic imprimatur, and yet further, why would Sunday keeping monks translate his work "as a labor of love" if it disproved or went against what they stand for? Recall the hatred that the Catholic Church has had for the Seventh Day Sabbath throughout history."
The Catholic Church is in communion with 2 "Seventh Day Catholic" Churches: The Ethiopian Catholic Church and the newer Eritrean Catholic Church. The Vatican's official position on this is that it would be an "immense tragedy" if those two churches were to abandon their Saturday-keeping customs. We addressed these unique churches and their unique relationship to the Vatican in Version 10.0 of Lying For God.
The story of the Ethiopian Church requires a whole 'nother level of assessment and analysis. It is incredibly rich and fascinating. |
Maggie_b
Registered user
Username: Maggie_b
Post Number: 7
Registered: 5-2016
| | Posted on Saturday, May 21, 2016 - 1:49 pm: | |
Res said: "The very heart of Adventism was plagiarized directly from Roman Catholicism. On an Ecclesiastical-level, Adventism also adopted the Council of Trent's Papal/Papal Magisterium model of church governance: Ellen was the infallible Adventist "Poppess" and the General Conference ("God's Highest Authority on Earth") was the mirror image of the Magisterium."
It's not too hard to imagine that Adventism is the Image to its own Beast. Thanks for the information, Res.
It's also not hard to imagine the whole structure collapsing of its ponderous moral weight.
On the other hand, how does one avoid Gnosticism, in that case?
Don't we need both sides of our brain, so to speak? |
Resjudicata
Registered user
Username: Resjudicata
Post Number: 698
Registered: 4-2014
| | Posted on Saturday, May 21, 2016 - 1:55 pm: | |
"Regarding "specifically commissioned and educated to conjure up a plausible rationale for continued Sabbath Keeping that was not dependent on EGW."
That's an interesting thought, Res.
How did SDA's arrange for him to be the first outside brother to receive this education, bad grades or no?"
I have no information that Adventists "arranged" for Bacchiochi to study at the Pontifical Gregorian. Vatican 2 did that. Bacchiochi exaggerated his accomplishment at being the first "protestant student" at the Pontifical Gregorian in 500 years. Because of Vatican 2, the floodgates were opened to Jews, Muslims and Protestants to study at the prestigious Pontifical universities. The present-day Patriarch of Constantinople graduated from the Pontifical Gregorian.
However, it seems incredible that Andrews Seminary would have hired him, and assisted in the distribution of his book unless:
a). They knew that Ellen was about to be unmasked as a fraud and that the 1919 Bible conference transcripts would eventually leak out;
b). And the Adventist Sabbath doctrine had no plausible biblical, historical or factual basis outside of EGW. Bacchiochi's dissertation was their "huckleberry" and they lunged at the opportunity for a non-EGW based Sabbath doctrines. Bacchiochi came through at their darkest hour.
Ellen's credibility received repeat mortal blows in the 1980's. The Sabbath barely survived because of Bacchiochi, to live on for another day. Unfortunately, his entire dissertation only further annihilated her credibility. |
Maggie_b
Registered user
Username: Maggie_b
Post Number: 8
Registered: 5-2016
| | Posted on Saturday, May 21, 2016 - 2:04 pm: | |
Res said:
"The Catholic Church is in communion with 2 "Seventh Day Catholic" Churches: The Ethiopian Catholic Church and the newer Eritrean Catholic Church. The Vatican's official position on this is that it would be an "immense tragedy" if those two churches were to abandon their Saturday-keeping customs. We addressed these unique churches and their unique relationship to the Vatican in Version 10.0 of Lying For God.
The story of the Ethiopian Church requires a whole 'nother level of assessment and analysis. It is incredibly rich and fascinating."
-----------------
I'm starting to believe you--fascinating, Res!
Bacchiocchi, p. 244:
"The process which led to the enhancement of Sun-day at the expense
of Saturn-day is difficult to trace because of the lack of explicit information
regarding what religious customs, if any, were associated with either day.
This may be due, partly at least, to the Roman concept of religion as being
social, political and external. Religion was viewed, as V. Monachino ex-
plains, “as a contract between the State and the gods” rather than as a per-
sonal devotion expressed by participation in weekly worship services.44 The
significant official religious ceremonies were attended primarily by aristo-
crat s and dignitaries who displayed their religiosity merely by fulfilling
external rituals."
------------
Religion as a contract between the State and the gods.
Interesting. |
Resjudicata
Registered user
Username: Resjudicata
Post Number: 699
Registered: 4-2014
| | Posted on Saturday, May 21, 2016 - 2:04 pm: | |
"On the other hand, how does one avoid Gnosticism, in that case?"
The answer to that question is probably not appropriately discussed here, given the Evangelical-orientation of this site. Needless to say, there has been a built-in counterweight against Christian Gnostism since the words "This is my body, this is my blood" were first uttered. |
Resjudicata
Registered user
Username: Resjudicata
Post Number: 700
Registered: 4-2014
| | Posted on Saturday, May 21, 2016 - 2:15 pm: | |
Ah yes, Bacchiochi's fixation on Roman Sun Worship as the cause of Sunday worship. As noted above, Bacchiochi and Ellen were both silent on the complete collapse of already rotten-to-the-core Greek Sun worship, 226 years before the Birth of Christ. Brought about solely by nothing more elaborate than the rise of Greek astronomy. When did the Early Christians supposedly revive this discredited cult? And how did they manage to convince jaded Greeks to return to such a silly practice? How did they manage to get Greeks to ignore the findings of Astronomy, and revert to Sun Worship?
Why is there an absence of any mention of Greek Sun Worship in "From Sabbath to Sunday?"
"In 274 AD the Roman emperor Aurelian made it an official cult alongside the traditional Roman cults. Scholars disagree about whether the new deity was a refoundation of the ancient Latin cult of Sol, a revival of the cult of Elagabalus[2] or completely new. The god was favored by emperors after Aurelian and appeared on their coins until Constantine I."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sol_Invictus
That doesn't explain very much about Greek Christians and Hellenized Jews meeting on Sundays during the 1rst Century, now does it? Sol Invictus was a cult that began in 274 AD, and indulged in mostly by upper-class Romans. It ended with Constantine. Most Christians during that period of time would have been excluded for cultural, religious and economic reasons. |
Maggie_b
Registered user
Username: Maggie_b
Post Number: 9
Registered: 5-2016
| | Posted on Saturday, May 21, 2016 - 2:34 pm: | |
http://blog.theotokos.co.za/?p=1017
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=19597
Res said: "Catch your breath yet? It just gets worse. Your entire life in Adventism was nothing more than involvement in one of history's most colossal frauds."
How in the world are people supposed to think their way out of this tangle? |
Resjudicata
Registered user
Username: Resjudicata
Post Number: 701
Registered: 4-2014
| | Posted on Saturday, May 21, 2016 - 2:36 pm: | |
Since this conversation has detoured into the fascinating history of the Saturday-keeping Ethiopian/Eritrean Catholic Churches, it reminded me of another overlooked flaw in my overall presentation:
The Apostle St. Mark left Jerusalem in AD 42 (10 years before the AD 52 Council of Jerusalem), never to return. He sailed to Alexandria, where he founded what is now known as the Coptic Orthodox Church. The Pope of the Coptic Church predates the use of that term by the Roman Church by some 1,000 years. The Coptic Church insists that it has worshiped on Sunday, since its founding since AD 42.
Neither Ellen or Bacchiochi ever mention this Apostolic Church.
Similarly, the Apostle St. Thomas hopped on a boat, just 2 years after the Council of Jerusalem, and sailed to India, where he founded what has now evolved into the Syriac-Malenkara Church. He never returned to Jerusalem. The Syriac-Malenkara Church insists that it has worshiped on Sunday since it was founded in AD 52.
Neither Ellen or Bacchiochi ever mention this Apostolic Church.
Both of these churches split with the rest of Christianity at the AD 452 Council of Chalcedon, thus delivering the first of many mortal blows to "Papal Supremacy." They and the Ethiopian Church formed what is now known as the Oriental Orthodox communion. They split over the Monophysitism crisis. They defiantly exited communion with the rest of Christianity, against the expressed wishes of the Roman Bishop.
Neither Ellen or Bacchiochi ever mention the Oriental Orthodox communion; the 452 Council of Chalcedon, or the Monophysitism crisis that prompted this first major schism. It anihilated any chance of the Roman Church having Supremacy over Christianity. |
Maggie_b
Registered user
Username: Maggie_b
Post Number: 10
Registered: 5-2016
| | Posted on Saturday, May 21, 2016 - 2:43 pm: | |
Res said: "The answer to that question is probably not appropriately discussed here, given the Evangelical-orientation of this site."
I am acutely aware of that, much as I appreciate this forum.
Why don't you open a forum, Res? Seriously. |
Resjudicata
Registered user
Username: Resjudicata
Post Number: 702
Registered: 4-2014
| | Posted on Saturday, May 21, 2016 - 3:02 pm: | |
By now, the alert reader should have picked up on a subtle and obscure but continuing theme, particularly as applied to the Monophysitism crisis that led to the schism at the 452 AD Council of Chalcedon. Which all by itself, precluded Papal Supremacy.
Anyone got any guesses? You mean you guys are going to force me to spell it out? Okay, here goes:
Rome and the Western Churches: Language, Latin.
Constantinople and the Eastern Churches: Language, Greek;
Alexandrian/Coptic Church: language, Copt;
India/Syriac-Malekara Church: language, Hindi;
Ethiopian Orthodox Church: language, Ge'ez;
Jerusalem Church: language, Hebrew/Aramaic.
Famous Italian semiotician Umberto Eco "is best known for his 1980 historical mystery novel Il nome della rosa (The Name of the Rose), an intellectual mystery combining semiotics in fiction, biblical analysis, medieval studies and literary theory."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umberto_Eco
If you feel like wading into this densely-academic "novel;" and if you can decipher it's repeated rabbit-trails into dozens of different obscure and ancient languages; his ancient "Sherlock Holmes" character unearths the following maxim:
"The etymology of language and semiotic-dynamism shapes and controls theological evolution."
Lets review our findings in light of that horrifying mouthful:
- Greek: Eastern Christianity's mysticism/anti-Gnosticsm/"Incarnationism";
- Latin: Western Christianity's scholasticism/legal-judicial theories of Salvation;
- Coptic, Ge'ez, Hindi: Oriental Orthodoxy's Monophysitism;
- Hebrew: Jerusalem Church that stagnated and DOA. But wait! It's been revived! And Judaism has been revived in its own Nation!;
- German/English/French: Protestantism's Sola Scriptura and Salvation by Faith alone.
Would Eco be proud of me, or WHAT? Any takers?
Or are y'all just disgusted? (I have that same cowboy drawl they have on Lonesome Dove). Shoot, I just realized I have listening to the Rolling Stones for over an hour.
(Message edited by Resjudicata on May 21, 2016) |
Maggie_b
Registered user
Username: Maggie_b
Post Number: 11
Registered: 5-2016
| | Posted on Saturday, May 21, 2016 - 3:02 pm: | |
Kaspars, apologies for taking this thread away from your Church History emphasis on "taking away the handwriting that was against us."
Please continue--I'll listen. |
Carracio
Registered user
Username: Carracio
Post Number: 56
Registered: 3-2014
| | Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2016 - 4:25 am: | |
I started studying THeology at the Free University in Amsterdam. One of the courses I follow now is Church History. It is very obvious that early Christianity observed the sunday. Justin Martyr got questioned by Jewish Rabbi Trypho about why Christians didn't keep the OT covenant. Justin Martyr explains why CHristians don't and also confirms they keep the sunday instead of the saturday. Also Irenaeus confirms and early observance of the sunday instead of saturday. The way Irenaues and Justin talk about the sunday shows that keeping the sunday was already very common for them so it must have been something already going on for years, beginning of the second century. Quite different compared to the SDA who think the Sabbath was observed till Constantine. |
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