| Author | Message | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 8205 Registered: 9-2006  |
I just don't see why a work of fiction is to be taken as teaching anything, such as the movie that Chris mentioned. I wrote one short book titled 'Fields Of Grain' where the character is walking through a field of grain with his dog. He is in reality in prison on death row. At the end of the story, it repeats the first part after his actual death, but it is fiction of course. I wrote another book titled 'The Day Time Ran Out'. The story involves an apocalyptic situation where the characters have missed God and are in the tribulation, but the story is not meant to be theologically correct. It is fiction. A work of fiction is just that...Fiction. I have had a lot of people remark about one or the other of my stories as if they were meant to be other than fiction, and that amaze's me no end. A few years ago, actually a lot of years ago, my wifes day time soap opera had a woman who received death threats enough that she had to quit the show..on a soap opera!! It just makes no sense to me. | ||
| Taluur Registered user Username: Taluur Post Number: 80 Registered: 8-2012 |
Thank you Colleen and Chris for the great posts! They hit the fundamental issues very well. I remember the ending of Gladiator very well. Seeing Maximus reunited with his family in that wonderful place was my favorite part of the movie. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 15328 Registered: 12-2003  |
You hit the nail on the head, Chris. I remember when Gary Inrig came to our very early FAF group at our invitation to talk about death. He brought up this parable. Almost as one, we said to him, "But that's just a parable!" Gary looked blank and confused for just a moment, and then he said, "Jesus would never use a falsehood to teach a truth." It's exactly the point you made, Chris. Thank you. Colleen | ||
| Walt Registered user Username: Walt Post Number: 20 Registered: 12-2015 |
Thanks, Chris. That is a very thoughtful and awesome post. I enjoyed reading it. I surely do want to believe that at death, those that love God, will immediately go to be with Him. But it's the everlasting flames and everlasting torment that I really have a problem with. The punishment appears worse than the crime. And we do have those passages that seem to say the wicked will perish; will be ashes. And I also hear that eternal life is a gift of God, which seems to mean that it is not something mortals possess. And, there is the fact that the teaching of eternal torment is one of the things that unbelievers point to as a cruelty of God. | ||
| Taluur Registered user Username: Taluur Post Number: 81 Registered: 8-2012 |
The sentiments of unbelievers do not change the truth of God's word. Many unbelievers object to Jesus being the only way to salvation as cruel and unfair. But that does not change the fact that He is indeed the only way, and that those who trust in Him alone will be saved from eternal punishment. Do we believe what God teaches in the totality of His word, or do we try to conform His word to what feels right to our mortal sensibilities? | ||
| Walt Registered user Username: Walt Post Number: 31 Registered: 12-2015 |
But does "eternal punishment" mean being tortured eternally? If it does, than no matter what our faith talk may be like, we view God as a monster. | ||
| Taluur Registered user Username: Taluur Post Number: 82 Registered: 8-2012 |
Since Jesus taught eternal, conscious punishment for the unsaved, then it is true whether one wants to believe it or not. Just as it is also true that He is the only way to reconciliation with God and escape from that situation. I believe Jesus always tells the truth, for He is the Truth. Those who view God as a monster are judging God by their own fallen, limited, mortal sensibilities. It is similar to the objections raised by some against God's sovereignty in salvation. Romans 9:15-23 puts in its proper place those objections and those who make them. Emotional objections against Biblical truth do not change the truth or make it nonexistent. It is better, I think, to conform our thinking to what God's word actually teaches and have our minds renewed by it than try to conform God's word to what seems right or emotionally satisfying to us. | ||
| Walt Registered user Username: Walt Post Number: 32 Registered: 12-2015 |
In the North American "Great Awakening" revivals of of the mid 1700's and early 1800s, fear of hell fire was heavily emphasized. And people were "converted." But by what? The love of God? The scripture saith "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom." And that is what first struck me when I first ever opened a Bible as a young person. It was Psalms, chapter 1. I trembled as I read: "The way of the ungodly shall perish." (vs 6) Let's look at the Hebrew word translated "perish," in Psalms 1...ä·vad' According to the Lexicon and concordance on the website, Blue Letter Bible, ä·vad' means: perish, vanish, be destroyed perish, die, be exterminated to blot out, do away with, cause to vanish I do not see anything in these meanings to suggest in the least, eternal torture/ torment. Do you? "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son. That whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." The Roman and Greek pagan beliefs of the immortality of the soul that crept into (not the apostalic) but the early catholic church, and then into Protestantism, are with us until this day. They persist because they became concretized as dogma. As I had pointed out several times in this thread, the scripture states that eternal life is "the gift of God." Humans do not naturally possess eternal life. Only in God, is there eternal life. He does not give the gift of eternal life to those who will be judged as evil doers/ unbelievers. | ||
| Taluur Registered user Username: Taluur Post Number: 83 Registered: 8-2012 |
This has been covered already by myself, Colleen, and others so I will not go over it again. Suffice it to say that when the entirety of Scripture is taken into account and in context, annihilation simply is not taught. Food that has spoiled is often said to have perished. Likewise, a car involved in a terrible wreck is often said to have been totally destroyed. In both examples neither the food nor the car ceased to exist, but they were ruined beyond remedy and no longer functioned in the way they were designed. Spiritually dead human beings who are not brought to spiritual life by God do not cease to exist. They perish, are destroyed, are ruined and do not function according to their original design. That is, enjoying fellowship with God. | ||
| Walt Registered user Username: Walt Post Number: 33 Registered: 12-2015 |
Logic may be applied and I am glad for yours. Think of an angel, or one of the redeemed in glory. They see God burning people forever in torture/ torment. How is it that they would freely worship God in adoration and love? No. I am afraid adoration and love would flee. All of creation would be in fear and dread of God, ...and throughout eternity. Doesn't sound like a place one would want to be. | ||
| Taluur Registered user Username: Taluur Post Number: 84 Registered: 8-2012 |
I do not think that beliefs on these or other Biblical issues should be based on emotional hypothetical scenarios, but on what is revealed in the totality of Scripture in context. Emotional arguments and hypothetical scenarios are sometimes raised by people who want to deny that Jesus is the only way to salvation. This in spite of the fact that this is what Jesus and the apostles clearly taught in Scripture. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1847 Registered: 7-2003  |
The most problematic argument one could ever make for annihilationism is to say something on the order of, "I think God is like this, therefore he must act in such and such a way". I have heard individuals making such an argument come right out and explicitly say, "If eternal Hell is true, I could not worship such a God". I am at once heart sick and offended by the defiance in such a statement. This is nothing short of choosing to create a "god" in our own image rather than bowing to the One who has actually revealed Himself. It is a rejection of Him and His Word. In creating a god to our liking we are essentially saying, "I choose to be my own god and decide for myself what is right and what is wrong". This is the same rebellious spirit that goes all the way back to Adam and Eve in the Garden. God is who He is and His ways our not our ways. We can choose to bend the knee to Him and submit to His Word, even when we don't completely understand, or we can choose to rebel and create our own god that is more to our liking. It comes down to a question of defiant rebellion or submission. Please understand, I am not saying that an annihilationist position, in and of itself, is a rebellion against God. I am saying an annihilationist position based primarily upon a decision to define how God should act and reject Him if He acts otherwise is defiant and rebellious. If annihilationists want Christians to take their arguments seriously and interact with those arguments from a biblical perspective, then they must eliminate this offensive argument and the rebellious attitude that goes with it. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1848 Registered: 7-2003 |
Walt it is total garbage to say that Christians owe their belief in conscious existence at death to the Romans and Greeks. It's a terrible argument in light of the fact that Jesus related this exact thing in the story we are discussing in this thread. Are you saying that Jesus was corrupted by false Roman and Greek beliefs? Why would Jesus teach false beliefs to confuse His followers? | ||
| Lettlander Registered user Username: Lettlander Post Number: 38 Registered: 8-2015 |
I have witnessed a number of Adventists say the same thing to me. One sweet lady at my Dad's church told me flat out (at a restaurant discussion/debate between me and Ty Gibson on annihilationism) that she would rather go to hell than worship such a God. My mouth was utterly speechless. | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 3200 Registered: 5-2007  |
Thank you Chris. You have a way of saying, from a biblical foundation, what I am thinking but didn't know the right words. There is much about God I don't fully understand. Yet, trusting him in things I don't understand is what sustains me in both the good times and the challenging times. As best as I can I try not to bend the clear meaning of the words of Scripture. Fearless Phil | ||
| Walt Registered user Username: Walt Post Number: 34 Registered: 12-2015 |
I am not inferring that Jesus taught falsehood, only that we may well be seriously misunderstanding His words when He spoke of "everlasting fire" in Matthew. We remember, of course, that in Jude 1:7, the very same words, "everlasting fire," are found describing the fire that destroyed Sodom & Gomorrah. From this we must conclude that it is NOT the fire that is everlasting, but it's results. And, really, what do we do with the fact that scripture clearly reveals that only the righteous will receive the gift of eternal life? If we, by nature, have eternal, immaterial spirits, then there is no need for this gift of eternal life. One can hardly say that those who suffer the 2nd death (devoured, destroyed, perished) would receive a "gift" by being again raised to eternal life. So, you see, in addition to the plethora of texts in scripture that indicate the wicked will perish, be consumed, devoured, etc., etc., we have this logic of how preposterous it sounds that eternal life will be given as "a gift" to the wicked. John 10:28 "I GIVE unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish." | ||
| Walt Registered user Username: Walt Post Number: 35 Registered: 12-2015 |
I recently heard an compelling argument against everlasting fire/ everlasting torment, which is quite to the point, and made a lot of sense. To me, at least. I read: "If the wages of sin is everlasting fire/ everlasting torment, then Jesus would still be burning." When I look at that and realize that it is written that "the wages of sin is death," and that there is a 2nd death reserved for the wicked, it got me thinking. God would have us adore and worship Him in purest devotion and love. But if there is a place of eternal torment, I wonder how that kind of adoration and love would be possible. | ||
| Taluur Registered user Username: Taluur Post Number: 85 Registered: 8-2012 |
You are repeating yourself, Walt. You made the same comments here back on January 25. A second response to your objection. A man had a son with a fatal disease that required a $10 million treatment to cure. There was no way the man could pay this price. However, a benefactor came and paid in full the cost of the treatment so that the man's son would live. It was not necessary for the benefactor to experience the disease of the man's son in order to save him from death, just pay the $10 million price required for the treatment. So in the end, the argument you present here is not so compelling. I think Chris did an excellent job of dealing with your further emotional comments here, so you can refer back a few posts and hopefully take to heart what he said. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1849 Registered: 7-2003 |
Walt, Your argument that the wicked would in effect receive eternal life in Hell is difficult for Christians to follow because you've started with a SDA redefinition of a term. This is an example of the language barrier that exists between Christians and SDAs. Unfortunately, we use the same words, but mean completely different things. That's why we need to spend time understanding biblical definitions, and biblical meanings. Because you are defining "life" and "death" according to non-biblical SDA definitions, your argument is not likely to resonate with Christians. Biblically, life and death do not equate to consciousness or unconsciousness. Biblically, eternal life is eternal union with Christ while eternal death is eternal separation from God. Both are conscious states defined by either union or separation. So the question isn't whether the wicked receive eternal life, they do not. The question is whether or not there is conscious existence at death, something the Bible portrays as reality repeatedly. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1850 Registered: 7-2003 |
Walt, do you understand why this represents a rebellious attitude?
You are implying that if God operates in a way that is different than what you would expect, then He is not worthy of your adoration, worship, or love. So what if orthodox Christians are right about this? You sound like you are prepared to reject the God of orthodox Christianity who is a God of both infinite love and infinite justice, infinite grace and infinite wrath. If righteous wrath is truly a part of God's being, do you reject this God? |
