| Author | Message | ||
| Carracio Registered user Username: Carracio Post Number: 41 Registered: 3-2014 |
I was talking to a colleague and he said he was SDA. I was a bit shocked. Didn't want to think about all SDA stuff. He said that in the Bible, wine didn't have alcohol in it. That's why he doesn't drink alcohol. What do you guys know about this topic? | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 3077 Registered: 5-2007  |
Carracio, The SDA take on wine in the Bible is nonsense. Virtually all the Hebrew words for wine describe a drink that makes a person drunk if taken in excess. Grape juice, without fail, will ferment within a day or two of being squeezed and as mentioned in the bible would have been alcoholic simply because the technology to prevent fermentation had not been discovered until the year 1867 when Dr. Welch introduced pasteurized bottled unfermented grape juice to the world. The only thing condemned in the Bible is becoming drunk. The Bible has much to say about being a drunkard but the passages that condemn this wouldn't have any meaning if wine wasn't alcoholic. Fearless Phil (Message edited by philharris on October 24, 2014) | ||
| Resjudicata Registered user Username: Resjudicata Post Number: 340 Registered: 4-2014 |
Phil is right. Grape Juice is a thoroughly-modern invention: http://joshuaone.org/2006/strange-worldhow-grape-juice-was-%E2%80%9Cinvented%E2%80%9D-to-make-the-lord%E2%80%99s-supper-holier/ Since grape juice requires pasteurization to prevent fermentation, we can be assured that Jesus served real wine at the last supper. | ||
| Paxel Registered user Username: Paxel Post Number: 27 Registered: 8-2011  |
Ask him about Deuternonomy 14:22-26 king James "STRONG DRINK"!!! 26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the Lord thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household, the idea of moderation seems to be lost at least when i was in the church... consumables or otherwise. | ||
| Islander Registered user Username: Islander Post Number: 54 Registered: 4-2014 |
There is no such thing as non-alcohol wine. Wine is wine. Grape juice is grape juice. They both come from a fruit and wine from that fruit is fermented. Just for the fun of it ask him if at Christmastime if he eats fruitcake. | ||
| Carracio Registered user Username: Carracio Post Number: 43 Registered: 3-2014 |
Quite funny is that de Bible has some warnings against being drunk. Why would those warnings be there if they didn't drink alcohol? Why would a government warn for speeding in your car, if it is forbidden to drive at all? | ||
| Resjudicata Registered user Username: Resjudicata Post Number: 343 Registered: 4-2014 |
This is quite possibly the most trivial "issue" that Adventism ever dreamed up. As far as for me and my freedom in Christ, I choose not to drink, although we keep lots of alcohol at our house to be more hospitable. Hospitality is a Christian virtue. Total abstinence is not. | ||
| Grace2 Registered user Username: Grace2 Post Number: 28 Registered: 8-2013 |
I also believe that the Bible allows for use of alcoholic beverages in moderation (although I don't drink). I have heard SDAs claim that in Bible times People used to make some sort of drink based on dry fruit (raisins) that were soaked or concentrated. This wine would then have been without alcohol. I wonder how widespread that was, however. If I am not mistaken, S. Bacchiocchi talks about this. Ellen White says that drinking wine is a sin. Those who believe her try to Interpret the Bible this way. The Bible does talk about a lawful way of intoxication (= marital sexuality)not heard about often in certain circles: Prov. 5: A loving doe, a graceful deer— may her breasts satisfy you always, may you ever be intoxicated with her love. | ||
| Resjudicata Registered user Username: Resjudicata Post Number: 344 Registered: 4-2014 |
Grace, It still has just as much, if not more alcohol that regular grape wine: http://www.ehow.com/how_2123160_make-raisin-wine.html And everyday across the good old day, creative jail and prison inmates are making "Pruno," which sometimes does contain raisins or breakfast prunes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pruno IOW, Adventists are full of it. | ||
| Islander Registered user Username: Islander Post Number: 57 Registered: 4-2014 |
Ellen White said something in one of her writings about being addicted to vineger. Can someone set me stright about that? | ||
| Resjudicata Registered user Username: Resjudicata Post Number: 345 Registered: 4-2014 |
She wasn't addicted to "vinegar." She may have been a drunkard: http://www.ellenwhiteexposed.com/contra9.htm | ||
| Mjcmcook Registered user Username: Mjcmcook Post Number: 1601 Registered: 2-2011  |
Resjudicata~ After reading this article, it sounds like Ellen would have benefited greatly from going through a good rehab program (preferably in a hospital) with follow up daily Alcoholic Anonymous meetings~! I believe there are verses in Scripture that warn against drinking enough to become drunk, it could blunt us to the voice of the Holy Spirit, leaving us an open vessel to the evil one. Saying this, it does call into question(once again) all the messages Ellen declares she received from GOD~ ~mj~ | ||
| Mjcmcook Registered user Username: Mjcmcook Post Number: 1602 Registered: 2-2011 |
I give you the follow up Scripture (there are others) to my post #1601 above. " And do NOT get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery; but ever be filled with and stimulated with the (HOLY) SPIRIT)." Ephesians 5:18. (Proverbs 23:20). This leads me to believe that a person cannot be "drunk with wine," and the HOLY SPIRIT at the same time! ~mj~ | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 3080 Registered: 5-2007 |
This passage does not directly say you cannot experience both conditions at the same time. Scripture, in any case, does condemn being drunk with wine, with or without regard to being filled by the Holy Spirit. A Christian who is walking in the wisdom of God will, of course, seek to be filled by the one and avoid the other. For those who do choose to drink wine wisdom dictates we should limit our freedom so as to not 'crowd the boundary' between sobriety and drunkenness. For many, prudence dictates that they totally avoid the use of alcohol. To make the choice to not drink alcoholic beverages is good. For many to do so would be a bad choice. Just remember, contrary to Adventist teaching, we do have a choice. It is not, of itself, a sin. Fearless Phil | ||
| Mjcmcook Registered user Username: Mjcmcook Post Number: 1603 Registered: 2-2011 |
Phil~~ I did Not mean to imply that once one is "born again" of the HOLY SPIRIT, if you do become "drunk with wine", the HOLY SPIRIT leaves you~ This condition may "blunt" out (make one insensitive for a time) to the Voice of the HOLY SPIRIT~ Romans 8:38,39 is our Promise HE will never leave us or forsake us! ~mj~ | ||
| 1john2v27nlt Registered user Username: 1john2v27nlt Post Number: 538 Registered: 5-2009 |
I found something last week that made the 'vinegar habit' make sense to me. There is something called Shrub (Drinking Vinegar). Here's a link to a current page; scroll down to find Homemade Shrub (Drinking Vinegar). Click there to read more. http://www.punkdomestics.com/category/tags/shrub?utm_content=buffer17d0a&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer Now the question becomes: Is Shrub just a fruit flavored syrup? Wikipedia says it can be that or it can be a Liqueur. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shrub_(drink) The link doesn't want to work - takes you to the plant. Try & copy/past the url with the word 'drink' attached or just google Shrub (drink) Liqueurs are definitely alcoholic, but low compared to other alcoholic beverages (spirits) -- 15-30% generally, but some contain up to 55% http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liqueur This tells me that in EGWs day, 100-150 years ago, what was termed 'vinegar' maybe had a different connotation than for those of us raised in the mid-20th century. Without refrigeration, sugary fruits & sweetened fruits easily ferment & become alcoholic. I remember in the 1970s it was popular to make 'Brandied Fruit' to put on top of cakes or ice cream (not so much in SDA circles; I heard of it when teaching in the public school system). It's a similar process, & is low alcoholic, but definitely alcoholic. Her vinegar habit had to be alcoholic; aka Drinking Vinegar/Liqueuer, whatever. This is the only way, for me, that she could have had a 'vinegar' habit that was hard to break. We read that term today, in a a completely different connotation than what it was when she wrote it. | ||
| Resjudicata Registered user Username: Resjudicata Post Number: 346 Registered: 4-2014 |
Yeah, nobody has a "vinegar" habit. They have a habit that results from "vinegar" that is closely analogous to distilled spirits. Our vinegar today? Hardly any danger of habitual use. Again, the problem with the SDA position is several: It blows out of proportion pure drivel and trivia into a salvational issue with absolutely no Biblical support whatsoever. Ellen simply lied when she claimed Jesus drank grape juice, which was physically-impossible. Grape juice wasn't "invented" until the 1800s. In Jesus's time, without the necessary modern innovation of pasteurization; preventing fermentation of grape juice was simply impossible, no matter what good intentions you may have had otherwise at the time. There is no record that anybody tried to stop fermentation. Why would they do such a silly thing? As Phil said, it is a matter left solely in the discretion of the Christian, with nobody else being allowed to judge. That I am a teetotaler says NOTHING about my personal morality. What the Bible is very clear about is that a lack of hospitality for ones guests IS a sin. Therefore, I am a teetotaler that stocks a truly jaw-dropping wet bar, has a fully-stocked wine cellar, and who usually buys either a keg or a case or two of beer for long weekend guests. And THAT is what the Bible says. | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 3082 Registered: 5-2007 |
Res, I like that. Even though I from time to time do indulge in a beer and even sip from a bottle of cooking wine, for the most part, I don't drink alcohol. I do this primarily for health and economic reasons. So, if I was ever in your home about the only hospitable thing to offer me would be a freshly brewed hot cup of black coffee. PS (This relates to the thread posted above this one.) Shortly after I got out of the Marine Corps back in 1963 I was a pretty heavy drinker and certainly not walking with the Lord. Shortly after getting out of the Corps my dad died of a heart attack and my doctor informed me I was headed down towards that same path. Since smoking and drinking were the main health issues for dad's death I got the message. I never smoked and beer binges were never part of my life style after that. But as for my salvation, these issues were far to trivial to be part of the changed life I am now leading as I was never addicted to either in my drinking days. My drinking buddies would be upset with me because when I 'had enough' they would find me in their car asleep waiting for them to take me home. There was one contradiction in my thinking. I refused to drive while drunk but didn't mind drunks taking me home. Fearless Phil (Message edited by philharris on November 02, 2014) | ||
| Resjudicata Registered user Username: Resjudicata Post Number: 347 Registered: 4-2014 |
Phil, You and me both could share a hot cup of brew, looking at the dusty bottles of wine in my cellar. Of course, I couldn't actually be bothered to pop the cork on one of them. That either alcohol or coffee could have been transmogrified into a sin is just astonishing, given the complete absence of support from the Bible and 2,000 years of Christian Church History. | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 3083 Registered: 5-2007 |
Res, Since my current 'status' in life is centered on being the 24/7 care of my wife it isn't likely that we will ever meet, until the return of the Lord, but I'm thinking such a meeting would be memorable for both of us. One ironic thing is that even though I more-or-less grew up and lived most of my life somewhere in the Napa Valley I never had toured an actual winery. Probably because of my SDA upbringing, the thought to do so had never crossed my mind. Then as I planned my move to Washington State the thought came to me that folks might not understand that a guy from the Napa Valley had never been inside of one. So, having a close friend who was a Christian brother in the Lord and was the production supervisor of one of the major well known wineries I had him take Jan and I on a complete tour. So, I do now know the details of how wine is made. Ironically, for two years back when I was a kid we were caretakers of a ‘ranch’ at Angwin (home of the Pacific Union College) which included twenty acres of grapes which we processed into grape juice through the process of pasteurization so we could sell it to our local SDA neighbors. Adventist simply do not understand the extreme effort we went through to prevent fermentation. Fearless Phil (Message edited by philharris on November 02, 2014) |
