| Author | Message | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 3383 Registered: 7-2007 |
Actually, yes! I'll explain. Notice this verse: "I am writing to you, little children, because your sins are forgiven for his name's sake." 1st John 2:12 The believers' sins were still forgiven even after they received the letter. Second, what makes a believer? "In Him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in Him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, Who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of His glory." Ephesians 1:13-14 Wow! There's a lot in this verse. First they "believed" in Him, then they were sealed! Adventists think that they will eventually get sealed with the Sabbath and that after a person gets "born again of the Spirit" they can get "un-born." That makes about as much sense as someone crawling back into their mother's womb and shrinking back down to a separate sperm and egg! It can't be done. First of all, Adventists rarely get "born again" because they're so indoctrinated with the idea that there's something they have to keep doing in order to be/stay saved, that they never accept Jesus' finished work in the first place! Second, they don't trust that Jesus can actually keep them from falling and present them blameless before the Father! " Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of His glory with great joy, to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen." Jude 1:24-25 And finally, they believe Ellen White's words that no one can say they are saved, over what the Bible says: "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." Ephesians 2:8-9 "He [Jesus] saved us [believers], not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to His own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit" Titus 3:5 "Who saved us [believers] and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of His own purpose and grace, which He gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began" 2nd Timothy 1:9 Those who believe on Jesus will be saved, just like the Bible says. Don't get me wrong though. It's possible for someone who has no intention of believing on Jesus to mumble a few words and call it a prayer of repentance without meaning it in the least; simply because they want to escape God's judgment or perhaps because they want to fit in with their Christian friends. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 2121 Registered: 7-2004  |
Do you believe that it is possible for a person to be fallen from grace? Gal 5:4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. From Scripture it seems that the one way you can fall from grace and be severed from Christ is to turn from Christ to the Law for your salvation. | ||
| Islander Registered user Username: Islander Post Number: 6 Registered: 4-2014 |
Ric-b, I have several acquainces who were raised Christian and were actually practicing Christians then later in life renounced Christianity. One, a very close friend is now Hindu. Another also Hindu, several due to big sorrows they had to endour became atheists and then the assorted Buddhists and so on. Needless to say, I have issues with the once saved always saved belief. I am happy Asurprise brought up this topic. | ||
| Mjcmcook Registered user Username: Mjcmcook Post Number: 1459 Registered: 2-2011  |
Islander~ A book that has been of great value to me in my understanding what it means to be 'eternally saved', was written by Pastor Charles Stanley. The title of the book is, Eternal Security. I believe you can purchase it on Amazon, if your local Christian bookstore does not have it in stock. ~mj~ | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 3384 Registered: 7-2007 |
Phil Harris; perhaps you could briefly tell your testimony here? You were saved when you were 6 years old, then was raised Adventist, gave up on "Christianity" because all the rules were impossible to keep and lived the most worldly life you knew how to, until someone gave you the gospel again. Perhaps you can explain how you had never lost your salvation! Thanks!  | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 3385 Registered: 7-2007 |
Ric_b; is this what you mean? First, a person accepts Jesus [becomes saved]. Then he accepts the teaching of the legalists and falls from grace [becomes lost]. Then Paul comes along and points out what he’s doing, so he accepts Jesus again [becomes saved]. The thing is, everybody who accepts Jesus and gets saved is still tempted. Many of those temptations are temptations to be legalistic and often people give in to those temptations. Are you saying that the saved person then becomes lost? And then why would the scripture even say that believers have been saved? How could that be true if the next day, they could be lost again? And why would it say that a believer “has eternal life?” How could it be eternal if it could be lost? And most importantly how could the apostle John write to the believers telling them that their sins were forgiven? If one of them was legalistic and therefore “fell from grace” after John wrote the letter, would the letter then be a lie? I would like to suggest that perhaps the book of Galatians was referring to people who hadn’t yet gotten saved. They had “tasted” of the goodness of God but were in danger of falling away before fully "eating" of the goodness of God because of the legalists who were teaching them to get circumcised and to “observe days and months and seasons and years!” Otherwise, maintaining our salvation would be up to us and Jesus wouldn't “keep us from falling.” | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 3386 Registered: 7-2007 |
Here’s some more thoughts for your consideration: If that is true then there are two unforgivable sins. Eternal life is not eternal it is temporary depending on MY ability to keep from falling and depending on the law. Eternal life then depends on ME instead on Jesus. We are NOT sealed by the Holy Spirit and guaranteed our inheritance. Adoption is a legal transaction . Adopted children can NEVER BE DISOWNED OR DISINHERITED BY THEIR ADOPTIVE PARENTS. We can be unbornagain WHICH IS IMPOSSIBE. "For by one offering he hath perfected forever them that are sanctified." Hebrews 10:10-14 UNCONDITIONAL LOVE UNMERITED GRACE UNENDING MERCY ONLY ONE UNFORGIVABLE SIN AND THAT IS NOT GETTING SAVED [rejecting the Holy Spirit's wooing.] Adoption is a LEGAL transaction. Once a child is ADOPTED the adoptive parents can NEVER EVER disown or disinherit that child for ANY REASON. God has ADOPTED us. We are new creatures in Christ. Those have truly genuinely humbled themselves at the foot of the cross and acknowledged that there is NOTHING they can do save themselves and are TRUSTING ONLY IN JESUS by FAITH will NEVER EVER LOSE THEIR SALVATION. HE KEEPS US FROM FALLING.. TITUS 3:5 "He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of His mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit." "He has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you HOLY and BLAMELESS and ABOVE REPROACH before Him," COLOSSIANS 1:22 "To Him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy- to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen." – Jude 1:24-25 "for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure." Phillippians 2:3 . SALVATION IS GOD'S WORK BEFORE AND AFTER. IT IS HIM AT WORK IN US. Hebrews 13:21 "equip you with everything good for doing His will, and may He work in us what is pleasing to Him, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen." "In Him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and BELIEVED in Him, were SEALED with the promised Holy Spirit, Who is the GUARANTEE of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it to the praise of His glory." Ephesians 1:13-14 SALVATION IS A FREE GIFT "For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." Romans 11:29 Salvation is free gift that cannot be earned. You do not work for something that is free and you do not work for a gift. Satan fell in heaven but Jesus did not die for angels sin. Fallen angels are forever separated from God because they were created immortal and cannot die. . Jesus paid the full price for allllll sin past, present and future. The wages of sin is death. One sin makes us worthy of death but Jesus paid the price for the sin of the world. Now, there is only One unforgivable sin ...only one sin that will send a person to hell and that is rejecting Jesus as your Savior - the sin of unbelief. It is the Shepherd's job to feed the sheep. It is the Shepherd's job to protect the sheep. It is the Shepherd's job to go after the wandering sheep. Salvation before and after is the work of God. We accept or reject the free gift of salvation. That is our part. Anything else takes the focus off of Jesus and places it on us. Jesus said IT IS FINISHED. He who began a good work in me will complete that work. He the author and finisher of our faith. There are only two groups the saved and the lost. There is no middle ground. We are not partly saved by Jesus and partly saved by ourselves. We cannot say we HAVE BEEN SAVED if we can lose it. All we can say is I hope to be saved. These things have been written that you might KNOW that you HAVE ETERNAL LIFE. We are sealed by the Holy Spirit Who is the guarantee of our inheritance. We are new creatures. The old has passed away. There is no one more miserable than a Christian in sin. We are to be holy as He is holy. The law produces more sin. The Spirit produces more Christlikeness. There is therefor NO CONDEMNATION for those who are in Christ Jesus our Lord. It is HE that justifies the ungodly and makes us His Children. The Gospel is good news. I cannot add to the work Jesus' has DONE. His righteousness is now my righteousness. He took my unrighteousness upon Himself. I am clothed in the white robes of the wedding feast and not in the rags of my self righteousness. The only ones kicked out of the wedding feast were those who did not wear the robe provided by the King. | ||
| Mjcmcook Registered user Username: Mjcmcook Post Number: 1460 Registered: 2-2011 |
Asurprise~ Exactly~~~A person Can Not un-adopt themselves! ~mj~ | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 2123 Registered: 7-2004 |
Asurprise, I am quoting Paul. Did Paul say fallen from grace? Did Paul say severed from Christ? Why would Paul mean something different than what he says? You have proposed no solution for understanding what Paul said as true and instead have only dismissed the statements as not fitting your theology. We should all know how dangerous it is to dismiss Paul's statements simply because they don't fit what we want to believe. Which is worse to reject the Son's sacrifice when you don't know about Him, or to know about Him and to reject His sacrifice and turn to your own works? | ||
| Animal Registered user Username: Animal Post Number: 1034 Registered: 7-2008  |
I agree Ric...well said | ||
| Taluur Registered user Username: Taluur Post Number: 35 Registered: 8-2012 |
Jesus said: “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.” (John 6:37-40) All who are given by the Father to the Son cannot lose their salvation if I am understanding this passage. I cannot imagine Jesus failing to do the Father's will by losing anyone the Father gives to Him. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 2125 Registered: 7-2004 |
Taluur, that is exactly what the passage in John 6 says. But that doesn't change what the passage in Gal 5 says. The question is, how can both these statements be true. | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 3387 Registered: 7-2007 |
It means that we're misunderstanding one of them.... | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 3388 Registered: 7-2007 |
What about this verse? "I am writing to you, little children, because your sins are forgiven for His name's sake." 1st John 2:12 Doesn't this mean all sins? And if not, wouldn't it say something like: "...your sins, except legalistic ones, are forgiven..."? | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 3389 Registered: 7-2007 |
I just thought of something... People sin and break their "fellowship" with God though not their "relationship" after they're saved. What I mean is; didn't Jesus say that He's the good Shephard and if one wanders off, He'll go after that one? Aren't the sheep in question here His sheep and not the world's sheep? Anyway, it sounds as if the saved DO wander off sometimes and then the Lord brings them back. Here's a verse that speaks to that: "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of My hand." John 10:27-28 If I'm understanding this passage right, once we become His sheep, we'll never perish. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 10144 Registered: 3-2004  |
When I was active in the prison ministry with Celebrate Recovery I met many women who had accepted Christ long before they did what ever they did that landed them in prison. They knew God never let go of them. Diana | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 3391 Registered: 7-2007 |
Ric ; here’s a few more thoughts to consider…. You ask… “Which is worse to reject - the Son's sacrifice when you don't know about Him, or to know about Him and to reject His sacrifice and turn to your own works?” Before this question is answered, the term “Christian” must be defined. A “Christian” is not a person who has said a prayer, or walked down an aisle, or been raised in a Christian family. While each of these things can be a part of the Christian experience, they are not what “makes” a Christian. A Christian is a person who has, by faith, received and fully trusted in Jesus Christ as the only Savior (John 3:16; Acts 16:31; Ephesians 2:8-9). Gal 5:4 is a WARNING. Paul is preaching/writing/witnessing/warning unsaved people, who are being drawn to the Gospel not to be taken in by the legalists. Our Phil was saved as a child and then became enslaved to the sda doctrine and then gave up and then returned to Christ. Did he have salvation and then lose it as an sda and then get saved again? Is your own testimony not the same? Weren’t you saved before you became sda ? Did you lose your salvation and then get it back again? Again Galatians 5:4 is a WARNING that you cannot serve two masters. You cannot hold onto both Christ and the law. Eventually you will let go of one or the other. If you hold onto Christ alone you will be saved. If you let go of Christ and hold onto the law you will be lost. Gal 5:4 is obviously warning those who have not made the final decision to trust only in one or the other. Or A WARNING to a saved person that has become confused/deceived for a time like you and Phil and then the Holy Spirit faithfully brings you back to the truth. Eternal life is eternal by definition is not temporary. John 3:15 states that whoever believes in Jesus Christ has (past tense) eternal life. If you believe in Christ today and have eternal life, but lose it tomorrow, then it was never "eternal" at all. Hence if you lose your salvation, the promises of eternal life in the Bible would be in error. Our eternal security is a result of God keeping us, not us maintaining our own salvation. The Lord Jesus Christ proclaimed, "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand" (John 10:28-29b). Both Jesus and the Father have us firmly grasped in their hand. Who could possibly separate us from the grip of both the Father and the Son? Ephesians 4:30 tells us that believers are "sealed for the day of redemption." If believers did not have eternal security, the sealing could not truly be unto the day of redemption, but only to the day of sinning, apostasy, or disbelief. Any denial of eternal security is, in its essence, a belief that we must maintain our own salvation by our own good works and efforts. This is completely antithetical to salvation by grace. We are saved because of Christ's merits, not our own (Romans 4:3-8). To claim that we must obey God's Word or live a godly life to maintain our salvation is saying that Jesus' death was not sufficient to pay the penalty for our sins. Jesus' death was absolutely sufficient to pay for all of our sins—past, present, and future, pre-salvation and post-salvation (Romans 5:8; 1 Corinthians 15:3; 2 Corinthians 5:21). There is only one unforgivable sin and that is not getting saved in the first place. Rejecting the conviction of the Holy Spirit that you are a sinner that needs the Savior because there is nothing you can do to save yourself. A person cannot be UN bornagain spiritually any more than one can be UNborn physically. No matter how much you hate or despise your mother you cannot go back into the womb and be unborn. Believers are born again (regenerated) when they believe (John 3:3; Titus 3:5). For a Christian to lose his salvation, he would have to be un-regenerated. The Bible gives no evidence that the new birth can be taken away. God disciplines and chastens His children for their sins but does not kick them out of the family because those sins are already paid in full by Jesus’ atoning death and washed in His blood. If a child gets caught in a cult you do not disown them you go after them and rescue them. Jesus is the One Who keeps us from falling… It is the job of the Shepherd to keep the sheep… “To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy- to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.” – Jude 1:24-25 Nowhere in Scripture is God ever portrayed as a Savior who depends on those He saves to effect salvation He is not willing that any should perish and His gifts are irrevocable, and His power is unlimited. There is no condemnation for those who are IN CHRIST. Paul asks two crucial questions in Romans 8:33-34 "Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died more than that, who was raised to life - is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. " Who will bring a charge against God's elect? No one will, because Christ is our advocate. Who will condemn us? No one will, because Christ, the One who died for us, is the only one who can condemn us and He condemns us not. We have both the advocate and judge as our Savior. Ask Colleen about adoption. She adopted her two sons. Adoption is a legal transaction . Once a child is adopted the adoptive parent can NEVER disown or disinherit the adopted child. We are adopted into the family of God. | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 775 Registered: 2-2003  |
Ric, I see lots of philosophical speculation here, but as you say, no-one has answered your question. As if the Galatians passage were not enough, what about Romans 11:11-21 and John 15:1-6? I am going to have to do some more research on this, but just on the question of "eternal life"... The idea of eternal life being permanent or it would not be eternal works well enough in English, but the NT was not written in English. In the original Greek, eternal is aiónios, which is related to the English word aeon. There is no word in Greek specifically meaning eternal or everlasting. Aiónios refers to the "age of come", which does not include any specific time duration. What I believe here, is that Jesus Christ has this "aiónios zóé" and we can have that too as long as we are "in Christ" according to the Bible, i.e. by faith/trust/faithfulness. If we are not trusting in Christ, however, either because of returning to sin or turning to legalistic religion, then we are no longer "in him". That seems Biblical to me, so my suggestion would be, don't stop trusting in Christ. Adrian | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 3393 Registered: 7-2007 |
In Christ? How secure is that? "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death." Romans 8:1 "You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you." Romans 8:9-11 If you're "in Christ" then you're born again of the Spirit. Can you get un-born then? Jesus will say to those who are lost: "I never knew you," not "I knew you, but forgot you." How does He know us but through the Spirit? Here's another: "And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses" Colossians 2:13 God doesn't make bad people good. He makes dead people alive. 1st John 2:12 says that our [believers] sins are forgiven which obviously means future sins, so how can we lose our salvation by sinning, whether by returning to sin or turning to legalistic religion? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 14834 Registered: 12-2003  |
You know, any time I try to create a method for understanding some of these apparent contradictions, I get myself into even more trouble. It seems to me we have to accept the paradox as a component of truth. Ultimately, God is not schizophrenic. He does not give and take at the same time; He does not double-speak. I see this conundrum as being similar to the issue of election and a person's need to believe. I simply can't explain how predestination and election work concurrently with God's command to us to believe. We are, as Joshua said, to choose whom we will serve. This command cannot contradict God's choice and election of us. At the same time, the fact that the Holy Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are children of God (Romans 8:14-17) cannot be in contradiction with Paul's warnings in Galatians not to fall from grace by embracing another gospel. I think that some of Paul's warnings are addressed to those people represented by the rocky and weedy soils. They do receive the gospel seed and germinate gospel plants...but those plants are not rooted or are starved out of existence. Those soils are not the good soil represented in the parable. I can't fully know or understand what state another person's heart is in...I can't even really know my own. But I can know that God is faithful. I have had to resolve this conundrum by seeing every command is Scripture as being one I must take seriously for myself, but I can't necessarily create a formula for how God works. His adoption is permanent; His birth of us is real and is His doing. It's His life we receive. At the same time, people can taste the Holy Spirit and respond to Jesus and become part of His closest followers—as Judas did—and fall from grace. Only God knows our hearts, and those two soils that produce gospel plants that never mature may appear—and may testify to be—true believers. At the core, however, they may not be. I really can't explain this fully; I have to believe the words mean what they say. If I reinterpret them, I run the risk of skewing God's meaning. Yet I have to hold them in tension with words that sound opposite, knowing that God cannot lie, and I can absolutely know that I am God's true child, and all whom the Father gives Jesus will come to Him. Colleen |
