| Author |
Message |
Taluur
Registered user
Username: Taluur
Post Number: 39
Registered: 8-2012
| | Posted on Thursday, June 05, 2014 - 7:25 pm: |     |
Well, Ric_b, I do think this situation was covered before. I still would like those who deny eternal security to explain their view in light of what Jesus said in John 6:37-40. I would like to know how their view cannot help but depict Jesus as a liar who fails to fulfill His Father's will. After all, if He loses even one person whom the Father has given to Him, then He has failed. And then believers would have to engage in the futile effort to "keep" themselves saved by their performance.
The power to save a person dead in his sins and to keep him saved is God's work. Not God's work plus man's efforts to keep himself.
"I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus." (Philippians 1:6)
It seems to me that God begins the good work of saving a person and makes sure that person makes it to the end.
Examples can always be presented where someone was apparently "saved" but later denied Jesus. The Apostle John explained that situation in his first epistle:
"They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us." (1 John 2:19)
In the end, the issue is whether salvation is God-centered or man-centered. Will we trust God to save and maintain salvation by His Almighty power and grace? Or will we insist that it is up to us in the end to justify ourselves to God by our performance because God's power and grace are insufficient? |
Thalarian
Registered user
Username: Thalarian
Post Number: 16
Registered: 7-2006
| | Posted on Friday, June 06, 2014 - 5:39 am: | |
The major problem I see with the so called "once save, always save" doctrine is that it gives the impression that once a person accepts that, they are free to commit crimes like murder, rape and other crimes against man and nature including and up to crimes against God, for in their minds that doctrine gives them a blanket Godly Pardon from all evil doing...
Something to think about... |
Asurprise
Registered user
Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 3400
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Friday, June 06, 2014 - 10:50 am: | |
Ric_b; you said, quote:
"Are you arguing that they are still saved despite their later rejection of God (because even the OSAS theologians do not teach this, instead they claim that the person's faith was never true)?"
John said that in that case, the person's faith wasn't true. Here's a quote from him:
"They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us." (1 John 2:19)
Thalarian; you're not understanding the nature of being born again. God doesn't make bad people good - like Adventists believe - no, He makes dead people alive (Ephesians 2:5 and Colossians 2:13). That's why a real Christian doesn't want to murder, rape and steal after he/she is saved. Adventists don't understand the saving process either. That's why they also use that argument. |
Thalarian
Registered user
Username: Thalarian
Post Number: 23
Registered: 7-2006
| | Posted on Friday, June 06, 2014 - 11:08 am: | |
Maybe a misunderstanding but my personal experience on the matter suggests that if indeed a person is born again, they should not be going out and commit more crimes, yet many keep doing the same thing as before. |
Asurprise
Registered user
Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 3401
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Friday, June 06, 2014 - 11:26 am: | |
Thalarian; I suspect that if someone becomes a Christian in China, Burma or Iran, they're much more likely to have actually gotten saved [had a heart coversion] because they will be horribly persecuted. In this or any other western country deciding to be a Christian is like buying a different color of socks for a lot of people. It's cheap and easy.
(Message edited by Asurprise on June 06, 2014) |
Rocky
Registered user
Username: Rocky
Post Number: 152
Registered: 3-2012
| | Posted on Friday, June 06, 2014 - 12:02 pm: | |
mj- if you are still reading this thread, I just want to thank you for the mention of the book by Charles Stanley "Eternal Security" - I am reading it and find it clarifying in a simple and direct way- thank you! Rocky |
Mjcmcook
Registered user
Username: Mjcmcook
Post Number: 1461
Registered: 2-2011
| | Posted on Friday, June 06, 2014 - 12:36 pm: | |
Dear Rocky~
Yes, here I am on this "Thread"~! Needless to say, I am so pleased that your
questions are being clarified!
I had so many questions about my eternal destiny when I came out of adventism in 1996!
My first introduction to Charles Stanley was via television. He made so many things clear to me.
I finally bought this book and several others.
In the year 2000 when I visited my Mother I brought a copy for her.
She was an historical, hysterical adventist. After her death in 2005, I found the book on her
night stand, bookmarked in several places.
I do believe that it made a change in her life.
Cheering You On!!!
~mj~ |
Asurprise
Registered user
Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 3410
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, June 07, 2014 - 6:32 pm: | |
Don't you see it Ric_b, Animal, Doc and Thalarian?
If a believer's sins are forgiven, then they cannot lose their salvation by sinning!
This letter that John sent the believers was just as true when they received it as it is to believers today...
"I am writing to you, little children, because your sins are forgiven for his name's sake." 1st John 2:12 |
Leifl
Registered user
Username: Leifl
Post Number: 33
Registered: 3-2014
| | Posted on Sunday, June 08, 2014 - 4:31 am: | |
If human will is THE decisive factor in salvation, then there can be no eternal security. Human will is about as fickle as the weather. We honestly don't know if we are coming or going most of the time.
The root of how we view salvation is in how we view the nature of man (biblical anthropology). It's the hinge which will turn how we understand Bible passages.
Very few of the great men of God have been free-will theists. John Newton, George Muller, John Bunyan, Jonathan Edwards, Charles Spurgeon, The Protestant Reformers, the Waldensians, just to name a few examples of men who knew their spiritual bankruptcy, and understood the power of grace. They didn't have the narcissistic, libertarian view of human nature spawned by the French Revolution and fused with Christianity in early American revivalism.
John 8:34
Jesus answered them, “ Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin.
Jesus taught that every one of us is naturally in bondage.
If our anthropology proposes that man is a neutral being, freely making decisions for right or wrong, for or against God, then we will understand this topic one way. However, if we accept that we are "condemned already", that in us is "no good thing", that God's ways are so opposite of ours that we could never want them or desire Him, then we will view "eternal security" from a different perspective.
If the new birth proceeds from grace, which unfetters and enables the human will, then it completely changes our thinking about this topic.
Whose work is salvation?
John 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, “ This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
On whose will is it primarily based?
John 6:37-40
All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
Who is the source of the new birth?
James 1:18 Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures.
1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, |
Mjcmcook
Registered user
Username: Mjcmcook
Post Number: 1464
Registered: 2-2011
| | Posted on Sunday, June 08, 2014 - 7:03 am: | |
Leifi~
Thank-you for your post #33~ I agree~
Well stated!
~mj~ |
Rocky
Registered user
Username: Rocky
Post Number: 153
Registered: 3-2012
| | Posted on Sunday, June 08, 2014 - 6:42 pm: | |
yes, Leifi, thank you for post #33- This is the first time in my life that I am truely coming into assurance with the peace that inspired the old hymn "Blessed Assurance" - this truly is "my story" and "song" - knowing the texts of the scriptures and of doctrinally sound hymns didn't do it, alone - trusting the Author of salvation, my Shepherd and Friend through the work of the Holy Spirit has resulted in this truth sinking deeper into my heart than ever before! I thank God for His tender mercy and praise Him for Who He Is - Rocky |
Hannah
Registered user
Username: Hannah
Post Number: 54
Registered: 9-2012
| | Posted on Sunday, June 08, 2014 - 8:06 pm: | |
Amen. |
Mjcmcook
Registered user
Username: Mjcmcook
Post Number: 1465
Registered: 2-2011
| | Posted on Monday, June 09, 2014 - 11:38 am: | |
Blessed Assurance, Jesus Is Mine!
(lyrics, Fanny J. Crosby,~ 1823-1915)
"Blessed assurance, Jesus is mine! O, what a foretaste of glory divine! Heir of salvation, purchase of God, Born of His Spirit, washed in His blood.
Perfect submission, perfect delight, Visions of rapture now burst on my sight. Angels descending bring from above echos of mercy, whispers of love.
Perfect submission, all is at rest, I in my Savior am happy and blest, watching and waiting, looking above, filled with His goodness, lost in His love.
(Chorus)
This is my story, this is my song, Praising my Savior all the day long; This is my story, this is my song, Praising my Savior all the day long."
My Nana identified with Fanny Crosby in both her blindness and Faith in God.
Nana played the piano and when I was young she and I sang this wonderful hymn together
more times than I can count!
Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross, paid "IT" All.
Our sins, past, present and future, were washed away! by His shed blood.
Oh, How Wonderful, Oh How Marvelous!
~mj~ |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 14841
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 10, 2014 - 4:50 pm: | |
Thank you, Mj! We can know we have eternal life: 1 John 5:13.
We have to take every word of Scripture at face value; there are "paradoxes" we can't fully explain. But the bottom line for me is this: whatever I read, I must take it seriously and ask God to plant me in reality and truth.
Colleen |
Bskillet
Registered user
Username: Bskillet
Post Number: 1058
Registered: 8-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 10, 2014 - 6:57 pm: | |
quote:The major problem I see with the so called "once save, always save" doctrine is that it gives the impression that once a person accepts that, they are free to commit crimes like murder, rape and other crimes against man and nature including and up to crimes against God, for in their minds that doctrine gives them a blanket Godly Pardon from all evil doing...
Thalarian, you bring up an excellent point. I believe this has indeed been an abuse of what is commonly called "eternal security" or "OSAS." I.E. someone said a "sinner's prayer," so they are permanently saved because they repeated a pastor's words in a special prayer during an altar call. They are then saved absolutely even if their later lives show no evidence that they were ever truly born again of the Spirit.
I am currently listening to the ebook version of John MacArthur's "The Gospel According to Jesus," which has a section that deals with this issue.
What I would counter to this problem you bring up, is that there are different views that can sometimes get thrown together as "eternal security." For instance, as a Calvinist (not trying to ignite any Calvinism debates here), I believe in what is known as the perseverance of the saints. This doctrine can be thought of as eternal security because it implies that the saved cannot lose their salvation. The difference from some more problematic versions of eternal security, is that perseverance of the saints is not based on someone saying a sinner's prayer and thus creating a binding contract between man and God that God is bound to honor.
Instead, perseverance of the saints teaches that God the Holy Spirit, by grace in His sovereign will, always strengthens and maintains the true believers in the faith, so that by His power and not their own, they are kept in the faith and thus permanently saved. Such a person is kept by grace from any state of permanent unrepentant sin. Rather than saying, "I'm saved so I can do whatever I want," those who are truly saved do indeed still sin, but by grace God grants them genuine sorrow for their sins, for offending God.
The implication is that those who say a special prayer or whatever, are told they are permanently and irrevocably saved, and then continue on in unrepentant sin, these people simply were never truly converted. I would say that, though God is the only one who truly knows their state, continuing in unrepentant sin is a very strong indicator they were never truly Christian in the first place. |
Asurprise
Registered user
Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 3412
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 11, 2014 - 10:58 am: | |
I believe in once saved, always saved; not once prayed, always saved. I know an atheist who spoke the words of the sinners prayer in a sort of mockery. Naturally, he didn't get saved.
Here's a verse that clears it all up:
"Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life." John 5:24
This is too plain to mistake. |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 14845
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 11, 2014 - 11:07 pm: | |
Ultimately, we trust God and obey His word. When we do that, we abide in Him. John15 has the profound section about abiding in the vine who is Jesus and His words abiding in us. The two are inseparable. If we abide in Him and His words abide in us, we can ask whatever we wish and it will be done; this will glorify the Father, for we will bear much fruit and so prove to be His disciples.
Then, in verse 9-10, Jesus says,
quote:Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also love you; abide in My love. If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept the Father's commandments and abide in His love.
As an Adventist that meant, "Keep the Big 10, especially the fourth, and you'll abide in me." In context, however, it means something different. In verse 12 Jesus says, "This is My commandment; that you love one another,just as I have loved you."
Then he explains that He no longer calls His disciples slaves because He has made known to them all things that the Father has revealed to Him. He states, "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in my name He may give to you. This I command you, love one another" (vv. 16-17).
Our obedience to the Lord Jesus is inextricable from our abiding in Him. He gives us the authority and power to do His will, and we submit and trust Him and keep His commandments—summed up in love and bearing much fruit. None of this is "explainable"; it just IS, and the Holy Spirit gives us the ability to embrace these things and to know that we are His children.
We can be confident!
Colleen |
Asurprise
Registered user
Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 3413
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, June 12, 2014 - 1:09 pm: | |
Yes, our salvation results in obedience, but Adventists "get the cart before the horse" so to speak. If someone were to to tell them what you just said, they would wilt inside in despair but paste a big smile on their faces, because that would be the "proof" to them that they should keep the "Big 10" to show themselves that they're [not saved - because Ellen White said they can't belive that, but] "right with God."
The truth is, when someone believes on Jesus, they are "sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, Who is the guarantee of [their] inheritance" Ephesians 1:13-14; so it's the Holy Spirit's job to produce the fruit, such as love, joy, peace, patience, goodness, etc.
The trouble is; Adventists don't have the Spirit, except the rare few who can disregard Ellen White and get saved. What I mean is, Ellen White says they have to keep on being faithful, etc. in order that to be saved, and that they can't say they're saved NOW. If they can really believe the Bible, they can put their weight down on Jesus and on the fact that salvation is TRULY a free gift, then they can get saved.
Our minds are tricky. We can easily convince ourselves that we're good in some way. Take a look at the Mormons. They sure seem to show lots of "fruits of the Spirit!" But they don't even believe in the Jesus of the Bible, so they certainly aren't saved! |
Asurprise
Registered user
Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 3414
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, June 12, 2014 - 2:10 pm: | |
Also; God doesn't make bad people better like Adventists think. He makes dead people alive!
"And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses" Colossians 2:13 [Also see Ephesians 2:5]
So the question to ask someone - is Jesus dwelling in you by the Holy Spirit?
"Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!" 2nd Corinthians 13:5 |
Taluur
Registered user
Username: Taluur
Post Number: 40
Registered: 8-2012
| | Posted on Thursday, June 12, 2014 - 4:15 pm: | |
And since Jesus cannot fail to do the Father's will, He cannot lose any of the saved who are in His hands. Praise and thanks be to Jesus, a true Redeemer! (John 6:37-40) |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 14850
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 16, 2014 - 7:14 pm: | |
Yes, Asurprise, we absolutely can know we are saved. If I couldn't have believed those promises as I was studying my way out of Adventism, I would have floundered in despair. We can know because His spirit testifies with our spirits that we are sons of God (Rom. 8:14-17). And as Taluur said, Jesus cannot fail to do the Father's will, and that means he cannot lose any of those who the Father gives Him (Jn. 10:25-29).
Colleen |
Asurprise
Registered user
Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 3417
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 18, 2014 - 1:53 pm: | |
Colleen; I couldn't have believed those promises while I was an Adventist because I believed that Ellen White "interpreted" them for us. When I read things in the Bible that contradicted SDAism, I figured that they only seemed to contradict SDAism and that somewhere Ellen White or the church had an explanation.
It wasn't until I read passages in the Bible that she very OBVIOUSLY contradicted, (such as the fact that she said that Jesus did not go into the Most Holy Place until 1844 and the book of Hebrews in the Bible says clearly that He already went into the Most Holy Place) that I could actually discard her and believe the Bible! |
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