| Author | Message | ||
| Anewman Registered user Username: Anewman Post Number: 36 Registered: 5-2011 |
So because I love my wife, i attend an SDA church with her, while still going to a non-denominational new covenant theology church as well. Last week was a dousy. The pastor spoke on Revelation 10. In verse 9 and 10, he discussed how John described a bittersweet experience of up a book that tasted like honey at first but became bitter in his stomach. He went on to say in that verse 11 decribes how out of the ashes of disappointment, there arises a movement which would proclaim God's truths - the Adventist movement that arose from the Great Disappointment. He says "the story of the adventist movement during the mid 1800s is an exciting one. every detail of the movement was fulfilled as predicted. Through the ashes of disappointment,God raises up a movememt to proclaim God's truth in the last days." Ahhhh. Where do you even go with this one. I thought i would start with how sad it was to hear first hand this "stretch" and liberty taken with the scripture and how I had never heard that Adventists now believe God had prophesied the 1844 events in Revelation. What say you all about this? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 14651 Registered: 12-2003  |
Anewman, I totally resonate with your frustration. I think you should, among other things, show your wife that Scripture says those who believe cross from death to life. Take her to John 5:24; those who believe do NOT come into judgment. And John 3:18; those who believe do not come into judgment; those who do not believe are judged already because they have have not believed. And Col 1:13: we are transferred out of the domain of darkness when we believe and placed into the kingdom of God's beloved Son. Adventists don't know the gospel. If judgment occurs at the cross, if all who do NOT believe are already judged, and if those who believe will NOT be judged, then there CANNOT be an ongoing judgment nor a judgment that began in 1844. It just can't be!! Colleen | ||
| Anewman Registered user Username: Anewman Post Number: 37 Registered: 5-2011 |
Thanks Colleen. Sure appreciate the response and the fresh perspective. It feels like falling into a deep sinkhole that every time you take another step, the muck gets muckier. How in the world does a church take such liberty as to project that section of Revelation into a prophesy about its church speaking an endtime message to the world. | ||
| Craig Registered user Username: Craig Post Number: 46 Registered: 2-2011 |
The Romanists arrogated for themselves infallibility and later placed infallibility in one fallen human being, the pope. Does it surprise you that false religions do this? | ||
| Lyrical Registered user Username: Lyrical Post Number: 194 Registered: 4-2012 |
Anewman, Before I left Adventism I read the book "The Apocalyptic Vision and the Neutering of Adventism," by George Knight (published in 2008). He is a very well known former seminary professor at Andrews and Adventist historian who converted to Adventism around the age of 19, left the church, and came back… He teaches this interpretation of Rev. 10: 9 & 10 EXACTLY (that the book that tasted liked honey but was bitter to the stomach was the Great Disappointment). Appalling... | ||
| Grace2 Registered user Username: Grace2 Post Number: 12 Registered: 8-2013 |
Thanks, Colleen! I don't believe in 1844 either but a few days ago someone challenged me with Ezekiel 9 and Peter who says that judgment shall begin with the house of God, i.e. professing church members. How can this be aligned with the other verses you mentioned which are no less true? Thanks. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 2057 Registered: 7-2004  |
John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. The light came first to the house of God, this judgment began with the house of God, exactly as proclaimed in prophecy. | ||
| Anewman Registered user Username: Anewman Post Number: 38 Registered: 5-2011 |
Hi Ric, I don't understand your 2nd paragraph. Will you expand? | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 3255 Registered: 7-2007 |
When Exekiel was written, Israel was God's people - the house of God. But they kept turning away and God kept drawing them back. Finally God scattered them among the nations. Even though He judged them, He's now bringing them back into their land. God judged them first because they had the scriptures and yet rejected Him. Acts 17:30 says though that God overlooked the ignorance of the people who didn't know any better. Israel did know better. That's what I think "judgment beginning with the house of God" means. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 2063 Registered: 7-2004 |
The "judgment" is that light came into the world. Jesus came to Israel. They received the light before others. As a result their "judgment" began before others. Each person's "judgment" is based on how they respond to the light of the Gospel. If they believe, they are "judged" righteous because of Christ. If they do not believe, they are "judged" sinful because of their nature and actions. | ||
| Mjcmcook Registered user Username: Mjcmcook Post Number: 1294 Registered: 2-2011  |
Ric-b~ Do you believe that what you wrote in your post#2063- "If they do not believe, they are "judged" sinful because of their nature and actions." - and this continues until death, it is the "unpardonable" sin? ~mj~ | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 3256 Registered: 7-2007 |
There's only ONE sin that will send anyone to hell and that is rejecting Jesus. So yes, if a person keeps on turning away the Holy Spirit Who draws everyone to Jesus, it is the unpardonable sin. Remember the jailer who asked Paul and Silas what he could do to be saved? They told him to believe on Jesus and he would be saved. It isn't just past sins that are forgiven when a person gets saved, but future ones as well, or the Bible wouldn't be able to say that a believer "has been saved" and that their sins are forgiven. (Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5; 2nd Tim. 1:9; 1st John 2:12; etc.) | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 2064 Registered: 7-2004 |
Yes, I do believe that rejecting Christ and the shed blood of His New Covenant is the "unpardonable" sin. As long as that sins goes on, there is no pardon for it. In regards to all of our future sins being forgiven, Scripture says that one can be severed from Christ and fallen from grace (Gal 5:4) but also says that whoever comes to Christ will not be cast out (John 6:37) and will not be lost (v 39). Somehow, as contradictory as it seems, both must be true. Saying that those described as "severed" and "fallen" were never really Christians seems to deny what the passage plainly says. Saying that no one will be cast out, snatched, our lost but can leave on their own also seems to deny what the passage plainly says. I'm not sure that a profession of faith when someone was 12 results in their salvation despite their vehement rejection of Christ as an adult. (Message edited by ric_b on November 26, 2013) | ||
| Mjcmcook Registered user Username: Mjcmcook Post Number: 1295 Registered: 2-2011 |
Ric_b~ Thank-you for your response. I, too, believe that the "unpardonable" sin is the rejecting of Christ and his shed blood blood on the cross for our sins. ~mj~ |
