| Author | Message | ||
| Polgarahh Registered user Username: Polgarahh Post Number: 16 Registered: 9-2013 |
I noticed a strange thing among Adventists. They do defend their doctrine about the weekly Sabbath still being in force for Christians. I made a Facebook group (with a couple of other ex SDAs) where SDAs can discuss with us and answer our questions regarding their doctrine (my favorite tactic is to ask them questions, not to give them arguments). They have a few arguments about weekly Sabbath (Saturday) they constantly rotate: 1. It's given after the Creation... 2. It's written BY THE FINGER OF GOD (and constantly ignoring the NEW LAW OF CHRIST WRITTEN ON OUR HEARTS) and thus being eternal... 3. There's no way for God's law to change (thus, when you negate the fourth commandment, you negate them all). The argument that the NEW LAW OF CHRIST is even more strict than the Mosaic Law and its area of application much wider than the entire Mosaic Law, this argument they simply ignore. However, I also noticed something else. NO-ONE on our group, NO-ONE ever mentioned Sunday (or first day of the week). We ALL CLEARLY stated that ALL days are equally important and holy for Christians, that CHRIST (and not Sunday) is our Sabbath, but they don't even see that. As soon as we start PROVING WITH THE BIBLE that the weekly Sabbath is not given to Christians, they immediately answer: I WILL KEEP THE SEVENTH DAY AS GOD COMMANDED, YOU CAN KEEP YOUR FIRST DAY, WE'LL SEE ONE DAY WHO'S RIGHT... First day? Who has ever mentioned the first day? What's wrong with them? How to make them READ our posts? Are they REALLY so paranoid to think that negation of the weekly Saturday immediately means the affirmation of Sunday? (Was I also that paranoid?) | ||
| Grace2 Registered user Username: Grace2 Post Number: 11 Registered: 8-2013 |
Polgarahh: It's my experience as well that it seems futile to discuss with them. Only the Spirit of God can work this out. We can be channels of love which will hopefully lead them to the truth. Love wins where a thousand words fail. While someone is wearing SDA "sunglasses", so to speak, it is very difficult for them to look outside the box. About the law being eternal: that's right, Psalms says that but it doesn't mean that every law is applicable for everyone everywhere. Cf. Hebrews 7:12 "For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well." They brush that aside saying that this only refers to the ceremonial law. However, the Bible does not recognize a compartmentalization of ceremonial vs. moral vs. civil law. The author of Hebrews says there must be a change in the law. Galatians states that the law served a purpose and that purpose has been fulfilled. It was given until the seed should come. Yes, they regularly say the law was given at creation. They are right, of course, but so was marriage. God instituted marriage at creation but this did not hinder Jesus to say that some have chosen celibacy for the sake of the kingdom. In other words it is ok (cf. Paul's writings to the Corinthians) not to marry in spite of it being given at Creation in an explicit manner. | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 2153 Registered: 6-2006  |
SDAs DO NOT understand that Christians don't "keep" Sunday or any day for that matter. It just doesn't make sense to them when they perpetuate their own ignorant assumptions down through their generations. They would find it out if they could have the courage to worship with other Christians and spend a little time doing research. Can you imagine though, if they accepted that Christians don't keep a day? What would happen to the National Sunday Law? What would happen to their doctrine that Sunday keepers are going to hunt them down? What would happen to their "us vs. them" mentality? Just accepting that simple truth would tear down a chunk of their system, so they hang on to it because it validates their beliefs in the Sabbath and in Ellen White. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 14630 Registered: 12-2003  |
Moreover, 2 Cor. 3 actually says the law written on stone brings death; the law of the Spirit is life. Colleen | ||
| Thalarian Registered user Username: Thalarian Post Number: 12 Registered: 7-2006 |
Saturday vs Sunday is a sore point for a lot of people. However, you must consider that Jews and Seventh-day Baptists both worship on the 7th Day. In the NT from my studies no where it was mentioned that the Ten Commandment Law was done away it. Only thing that done away because of the cross was the laws of intercession in the earthly temple of the Jews or the Ceremonial laws. A lot of people have taken those NT texts out of context and put in thier own words and theories which they should not be doing. God never made the change to the First Day, if HE did HE would have told us in the Holy Bible, nowhere do I find any sort of commandment from GOD that we are to worship on the First Day.. You should be aware that I brought this up with my brother-in-law and his pastor who are baptists and after 2 years of studying and researching they agreed with my assesment that GOD did not change the day of worship from the 7th Day to the 1st Day. The Baptist church now holds 4 services, 2 on each day. Remember Revelation 22:18-20? Suggest you all read it again.... @Colleen, Law of God and Law of the Spirit are one and the same... Failure to follow the Law of God is death, following the Law of God is life... One cannot seperate the OT from the NT or follow the NT and not the OT. @To rest of you, unfortuantly sunday worship has been traditional and majority of the population will not change thier views to fit the Law of God. Will God condemmed these people who worship on Sunday? Have no idea.. Nor will I presume that HE will. We humans have no right to make judgement on this matter. I say let people worship on whatever day they choose to do so if they think the bible tells them to worship on the first day, then so be it. | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 2948 Registered: 5-2007  |
Thalarian, The Hebrew Sabbath isn't about worship. It is a day of rest given only to the Jews as the sign of the covenant God made with them. It is not and never was about worship. Seventh-day Baptists don't make it a salvation issue. Only Adventist do that by claiming Sabbath Keeping being the sign that separates Christians from those who take on the 'mark of the Beast'. Fearless Phil | ||
| Polgarahh Registered user Username: Polgarahh Post Number: 18 Registered: 9-2013 |
Thalarian, That was exactly my question above. Why do sabbatharians have the NEED to immediately think that we support Sunday worship when we say that the weekly sabbath is not in force for Christians? Because that isn't true. I myself, as well as ALL people at FAF or in my FB group, NONE of us supports Sunday as the day of worship. We all agree that ALL days are worship days for Christians, that Christ is our Sabbath rest and not Sunday (or Saturday), that keeping the seventh (or the first) day of the week shall NOT condemn you but also not bring you any closer to God and salvation. We base our view on Christ's word: "Come to me all you who are weary and loaded and I will give you REST", on Paul's words in Collosians 2:16.17 or Hebrews 4:1-11 (particularly verse 6 where Paul says that Israel was not able to enter His rest ALTHOUGH they kept the weekly sabbath) and many other verses. You can search the entire OT and NT and you'll find NOT A SINGLE VERSE claiming that the weekly sabbath was a day of worship. It was always and only the day of REST when Israel was forbidden to work as man's work spoils the work of God from which GOD rests. Actually, Jews worship EVERY DAY (burnt offerings are made two times a day every day etc.). You cannot find a verse claiming that Sunday is the day of worship in NT, but also you cannot find A SINGLE verse claiming that Saturday is the day of worship as well, BOTH in OT and NT. In Colossians 2:16.17 it clearly says thar weekly sabbath was the shadow of Christ, that it pointed to Christ and that Christ is its fulfilment. Christ is our rest (sabbath). In Christ we can finally REST FROM OUR WORK on trying to earn our salvation. Try to prove me wrong. And please, STOP saying that I or anyone else here supports Sunday. That cannot be farther from the truth. For us, Christ is the sabbath and not a day (ANY day). Our gospel is: Christ only, by grace only, Bible only. It's not: Law only, by grace AND our obedience to the law or whatever else. | ||
| Craig Registered user Username: Craig Post Number: 33 Registered: 2-2011 |
I've observed one interesting thing about sabbatarianism: it usually is part of a whole bunch of legalistic rules designed to control people. Jews, Seventh-day Baptists, SDAs, Church of God, etc. all have a form of legalism. I know this poor elderly woman that had to remove all the leaven in her house prior to one of the feast days. I find it hard not to be a legalist some times. It's in our DNA, it seems. Read John 5. Now read it again. Did Jesus order that man to carry his bed? And where would he have gone? The pool was OUTSIDE the city gates at that time. (I love maps.) Now read Jeremiah 17:21. It is quite entertaining (why get frustrated?) to listen to someone's tortuous logic explaining that away! Jesus' defense was that he was working and so was his Father. So is the Sabbath a moral issue?This was a clear violation wasn't it? Also in verse 18 it says that the Jews hated him because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he made himself equal to God. So, they were right about the 2nd but not the first? Or right about the 1st and wrong about the 2nd? Actually, it doesn't even say that THEY thought he was breaking it. Did Jesus claim to be God? Or did the Jews just thought he did? The writer (John, right?) said why they hated him. He isn't arguing with them. No one is arguing their charge--especially Jesus. The Sabbath was always a shadow. He treated the Sabbath exactly like he treated the rest of the shadows of the Mosaic law. He touched dead people, lepers, menstruating women (well, ok, she touched him), and then ignored the cleansing rituals. These are all mentioned in Leviticus and Numbers. The Pharisees didn't make them up, although they really piled on even more restraints to really separate themselves from "sinners," kind of like a "prophet" from the 19th century. I don't know about you, but I would rather carry around a bed on the Sabbath than touch a leper. But for the Creator, he can do anything--EXCEPT violate his own character. God is love. The real law or transcript of His character is love. Besides if you want to "keep the Sabbath" because the law has not changed, you better come by my house the next time I mow my lawn on Saturday afternoon and STONE ME TO DEATH! That, after all was the penalty for breaking the Sabbath. Not a very good law keeper if you don't! Oh, and by the way, if you read a little before Revelation 22:18-20, SAY VERSE 5. No night, no sun, just God. Just ONE ETERNAL DAY! NO SHADOWS ALLOWED! Eternal rest in God. Eternal rest in Jesus, rest that we can enter NOW, in HIS BODY, through the veil, SEATED AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD. Eternal joy which is ours now by FAITH ALONE in the FINISHED work of our amazing Savior ALONE. Praise God for his incredible GRACE! I want to serve him in love forever and ever, for HE IS WORTHY. Even so, come Lord Jesus! Craig PS: Yes, I know, Colleen. When I get worked up, I seem to prefer fragments to complete sentences.  | ||
| Polgarahh Registered user Username: Polgarahh Post Number: 20 Registered: 9-2013 |
Hi, Craig, So well written, I got goosebumps!!! May I please translate this text and use it in my FB group, PLEASE? Thanks in advance | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 3238 Registered: 7-2007 |
Thalarian; the Old Covenant Law and the Prophets were fulfilled when Jesus' died and the New Covenant [New Testament] was brought in: "Therefore He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant. For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established. For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive." Hebrews 9:15-17 Jesus made it clear in Matthew 5:17-18 that until the "Law and the Prophets" were fulfilled, that not one jot or tittle would pass from it. Therefore if it hasn't been fulfilled, then we [or rather the Jewish people since the Law was never given to Gentiles - Romans 2:14] would have to do ALL of it - the circumcism, all the various kinds of Sabbaths, the ceremonial washings, the avoidance of "unclean" meats [which represented the separation of the Gentiles from God's people, by the way - Leviticus 20:24-26,] the sacrifices; everything in the Law and the prophets whether it pointed forward to the Messiah or not. After all, Jesus said that NONE would pass from the Law until ALL was fulfilled. So either it's been fulfilled or not. And if it HASN'T been fulfilled, that bad news for those of us who are Gentiles because that would mean that we're still "unclean;" still separated from God! | ||
| Mjcmcook Registered user Username: Mjcmcook Post Number: 1266 Registered: 2-2011  |
Asurprise~ Your points are very well put! Thank-you~ ~mj~ | ||
| Craig Registered user Username: Craig Post Number: 34 Registered: 2-2011 |
No problem, POLGARAHH. In fact, why do you need to ask for permission? I'm such a techno-immigrant! Anyway, I hope that you will change the tone a bit. I can be a bit feisty at times. I'm not without sin, so I don't think I have the right to reach for the whip and go storming through the temple. I'm never quite sure if it's the Holy Spirit or the wholly self. My flesh is so saturated with self-centeredness that without the Good News, I would despair. Thank goodness, that isn't who I am in Christ--who we all are in Christ! Again, what an amazing God! Craig PS: Oh, I think sentence number 17 (careful, my counting can be worse than my use of fragments) in the second paragraph should have been written "Or did the Jews just THINK he did?" That's what happens when you're writing two hours past your normal bedtime. | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 3242 Registered: 7-2007 |
You're welcome Mj! | ||
| Rocky Registered user Username: Rocky Post Number: 90 Registered: 3-2012 |
This was sent to me as an Essential Truth of the Christian Faith in my email today-I see many Christians believe this Calvinist view http://links.biblegateway.mkt4731.com/servlet/MailView?ms=NDQyNDM1MTYS1&r=MzU3NzM4NTQyOTgS1&j=MjEwMzg2NTQyS0&mt=1&rt=0 | ||
| Craig Registered user Username: Craig Post Number: 40 Registered: 2-2011 |
Yes, and Adventists have enthusiastically adopted the "three uses of the law" used by Calvinists--moral, ceremonial, and civil. But the old testament intertwines all these together. When I finally got around to actually reading the Law, especially Leviticus, it struck me how there is no differentiation between moral, ceremonial, and civil laws. It was all one law! However, I do think it's obvious that murder, stealing, adultery, etc. is a moral problem and must be abhorrent to God. But is the Sabbath the same? I just don't see it in light of the New Testament(see my post above). However, taking a day off one-in-seven is just good sense. That is a far cry, however, from "the Mark of the Beast"! I think Paul's admonition to "let each man be convinced in his own mind" is good advice. Let us love one another; let us not point the finger and judge one another. Craig | ||
| 1john2v27nlt Registered user Username: 1john2v27nlt Post Number: 508 Registered: 5-2009 |
Craig: "Adventists have enthusiastically adopted the "three uses of the law" used by Calvinists--moral, ceremonial, and civil." That was Calvinistic? Wow. | ||
| Craig Registered user Username: Craig Post Number: 42 Registered: 2-2011 |
Actually, all the reformers talked about the three uses of the law, including Luther. However, the reformed catechisms really emphasized this. That is why Sunday sabbatarianism was so strong among the Puritans, which, of course, were the source of the New England "blue laws." But reformed defense of Sunday as the Sabbath has always been weak, in my opinion, allowing Adventists and other 7th-day sabbatarians an easy opening for proselytizing them. Phil Harris shared a link on the "Members Only" site. I think Ray Stedman has a wonderful view of the true Sabbath. What surprised me was the date of his original writing, December 10, 1967. Here's the link to the article: http://www.raystedman.org/old-testament/genesis/the-seventh-day Craig | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 2042 Registered: 7-2004  |
Actually, Luther only speaks of two uses, see for instance his commentary on Galatians. But other Lutherans adopted the three uses. The 3 uses of the Law are: To create a civil society To point out sin To serve as a guide for our sanctification also described as being "curbs" for a believer The 3 uses are distinctly different from the 3-fold division of the law: civil, moral and ceremonial. SDAs actually add a 4th division-health. (Message edited by ric_b on November 02, 2013) | ||
| Jdpascal Registered user Username: Jdpascal Post Number: 337 Registered: 10-2003 |
In my reading, St Thomas Aquinas was the first recorded to make a division of the law... Moral -ceremonial and civil. This Wikipedia reference, found in the Roman Catholic section, is a summary of his Summa Theologica http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_the_Old_Covenant This second link gives some additional insights... http://www.harryhiker.com/ms/aquina00.htm | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 14648 Registered: 12-2003 |
Ok--another link! Several years ago we ran an really amazing article on the unity of the law by R. K. McGregor Wright. He's a "never-been-Adventist" who has a degree in apologetics from Denver Seminary. This article was actually a paper he originally wrote for an Adventist friend of his. He explains how the law became segmented by the early church fathers, and he shows that the division is artificial and that the entire law was nailed to the cross in the body of the Lord Jesus, the logos. Logos is the Greek equivalent of "Torah", and the Lord Jesus took the law in His His flesh to the cross and fulfilled all its requirements, including death for sin. He was and is the "Living Torah"...or the living Law. Anyway, here's the link to the PDF version of Proclamation. The article is on page 6: http://www.lifeassuranceministries.org/Proclamation2005_JulAug.pdf Colleen |
