| Author | Message | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 3194 Registered: 7-2007 |
I wrote something about the Sabbath that I'd like to put out for any Adventists reading this: Now don't you Adventists exclaim: "I can't read this! I might be decieved!" My answer to that is that the truth will stand up to any lie. If what you believe is the truth, it will stand! First of all, the Adventists are right that the Sabbath was the sign of the covenant, but what they don't understand is that it was the sign of the old covenat that was given only to Israel. First, I would like to point out that the 613 laws including the 10 Commandments were the old covenant: "So he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights. He neither ate bread nor drank water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments." Exodus 34:28 "And He declared to you His covenant, which He commanded you to perform, that is, the Ten Commandments, and He wrote them on two tablets of stone." Deuteronomy 4:13 And here's a verse saying the Sabbath was the sign: "You are to speak to the people of Israel and say, ‘Above all you shall keep My Sabbaths, for this is a sign between me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I, the Lord, sanctify you." Exodus 31:13 Unfortunately, SDAs stop there and say: "SEE?!? SEE?!?" But they don't go one to see TO WHOM that covenant was given! "And Moses summoned all Israel and said to them, “Hear, O Israel, the statutes and the rules that I speak in your hearing today, and you shall learn them and be careful to do them. The Lord our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. Not with our fathers did the Lord make this covenant, but with us, who are all of us here alive today." Deuteronomy 5:1-3 Now THAT contradicts Adventist theology which says that God's law was from forever! It's saying that this covenant was not given to their fathers! Also Galatians 3:16-19 says that old covenant had a definite beginning and ending. It says that it was to go "until the Seed [Jesus] should come" verse 19. God foretold through Jeremiah that He was going to bring in a whole new covenant: “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord." Jeremiah 31:31-32 (It goes on to say He would write His laws on their hearts, but it doesn't say that His laws would be the old covenant laws like Adventists assume.) Here's some verses that say what happened to the old covenant and how the new covenant came into place: "In speaking of a new covenant, He makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away." Hebrews 8:13 "Therefore He [Jesus] is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant. For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established. For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive." Hebrews 9:15-17 Adventists like to quote Exodus 20 where God tells Israel to keep the Sabbath because He blessed it. But they don't like to quote Deuteronomy 5:15 where it God tells Israel: "You shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out from there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the Lord your God commanded you to keep the Sabbath day." It's as if God is telling Israel something like: "I'm God, so do as I say." Adventists like to claim that God blessed not only the seventh day of creation, but also all the anniversaries of that day; the 14th, the 21st, the 28th; etc. But Genesis 2:2-3 says that God rested THE seventh day, not all those anniversaries of it. Also God invites people to enter His rest. Hebrews 4:1-6 says that Israel didn't do it, though they certainly kept the Sabbath day VERY religiously. They didn't dare not to! Hebrews 4:7-10 says: "again he appoints a certain day, “Today,” saying through David so long afterward, in the words already quoted, “Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts.” For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken of another day later on. So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, for whoever has entered God's rest has also rested from his works as God did from his." Hebrews 4:7-10 So people need to enter God's Rest! Jesus said: "Come to Me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." Matthew 11:28 Yes, Jesus is our Sabbath Rest now. Here's a verse that says He's the fulfillment of all the Sabbaths! "Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ." Colossians 2:16-17 Paul was concerned because the Galatians were starting to keep all the three types of Sabbaths - the annual/seasonal, the monthly and the weekly: "You observe days and months and seasons and years! I am afraid I may have labored over you in vain." Galatians 4:10-11. And finally I'd like to point out that the Bible calls the old covenant the "ministry of death" and calls the new covenant the "ministry of the Spirit." "Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses' face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end, will not the ministry of the Spirit have even more glory? For if there was glory in the ministry of condemnation, the ministry of righteousness must far exceed it in glory. Indeed, in this case, what once had glory has come to have no glory at all, because of the glory that surpasses it. For if what was being brought to an end came with glory, much more will what is permanent have glory. Since we have such a hope, we are very bold, not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face so that the Israelites might not gaze at the outcome of what was being brought to an end. But their minds were hardened. For to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away. Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their hearts. But when one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed." 2nd Corinthians 3:7-16 | ||
| Grace2 Registered user Username: Grace2 Post Number: 3 Registered: 8-2013 |
I agree with Asurprise. Sadly, I have used such arguments and completely failed to convince the person I was talking to. It's as if a veil was covering the message. Could it be that a realization of these verses and their meaning would create an almost unbearable cognitive dissonance? It requires a tremendous paradigm shift for a long-time SDA to accept and follow the logic of these texts. Persistent love, a gentle spirit and lots of patience with prayer may be the only way some SDAs will come to realize the truth of these Sabbath texts. I have heard the argument recently: What about the fine SDA-theologians, pastors and preachers? They can't be all deceived, can they? So yes, love will win where argument fails - we need both, love and truth. | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 3196 Registered: 7-2007 |
Welcome to the forum, Grace2!  Perhaps a good thing to ask those people would be that if they think all those SDA theologians couldn't be wrong, how about all the Muslim, Mormon, Roman Catholic and Jehovah's Witness theologians? That will make them think! | ||
| Bridgitte Registered user Username: Bridgitte Post Number: 8 Registered: 8-2013  |
Asurprise--very well written. | ||
| Capross Registered user Username: Capross Post Number: 69 Registered: 7-2012 |
Asurprise I am reminded of 2 Thess 2 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness. How do you speak truth to someone who is delusional? I believe only God is powerful enough to get through. | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 3201 Registered: 7-2007 |
These verses also explain why they don't "get" it: "Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their hearts. But when one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed." 2nd Corinthians 3:15-16 "And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing." 2nd Corinthians 4:3 So it looks to me like their minds are held captive by demonic forces and it takes a miracle of God to set them free. That's why it's so important not to give up praying for people! Just recently I read a story of someone set free from that veil because of other people's prayer! | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 3202 Registered: 7-2007 |
Oh, I just read on to the next verse... 2nd Corinthians 4:4 and it DOES say that Satan has them blinded... "In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God." So yes... they're held like slaves and they don't even realize it... | ||
| Butterfly_poette Registered user Username: Butterfly_poette Post Number: 350 Registered: 5-2011  |
Well written. I do wish that I knew about all the different covenants years ago. Moses and the "new covenant" aren't the only ones. I do wish my family left the SDA church a long time ago. | ||
| Mountaingirl Registered user Username: Mountaingirl Post Number: 14 Registered: 8-2013 |
This is another part of the conversation my cousin and I were having just before I unfriended him on fb." This portion is on the Sabbath. I wrote more about it under the MEMERS ONLY area, “I had to unfriend a cousin on fb. I am not a Bible scholar and am so in the very beginning of learning what the bible actually says. I do know that many of what this cousin writes is so off and wrong. I especially find his second to the last sentence telling – DO hard nose SDA’s really think the only law in all the Bible that they have to abide by are the so called – 10 commandments? Could this explain the overall judgmental attitudes they carry and the lack of love for anyone outside the belief system of the SDA church? Since I am still learning the differences of SDA and Christian I am sending this out because perhaps it will be helpful for others and comments any of you make can only help me and others see and understand the differences. Fb conversation – this came back to me all in one reply I have put it into paragraphs and spaced sentences as it all ran together when I got it making it very hard to read. ME: SDA claims that the Sabbath came about in Eden, why, man had not sinned at that point. COUSIN: What Am I to assume that the law did not exist until after the first sin? Then what do you do with the Bible explanation of what sin is? “Sin is the transgression (breaking of) the law.” I John 3:4. Also see Romans 4:15 which says where there is no law there is no transgression (sin). Thus the Sabbath predates sin. In fact if this wasn’t true then why did God cite creating the earth in six days as the reason for the Sabbath? Ex. 20:8-11. The Sabbath is also mentioned in Ex. 16 and Ex. 5:4. In the latter verse a literal translation has Pharaoh saying why do you make Israel keep Shabbat (rest). (me comment- I could not find this in the Bible) And further in Deu 5:2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us (Israel/Jews) in Horeb. ME: Deu 5:3 The LORD made NOT (caps from me) this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day. COUSIN: Read the full context of the verses you quoted. I think you will find that they are speaking of the old covenant. And what is the old covenant? You can find it in Ex. 19:8; “all that the LORD has said we will do. ” Thus the old covenant was based on Israel’s promise to keep the law; it was not the law itself. The new covenant is based on a better promise. Not our promise to keep the law, but God’s promise to write it on our hearts, Jer. 31:31-33 &b Heb. 8:7-10. Thus the new covenant is God writing His law (the same law that was spoken from Mt Sinai, the ten commandments) on our hearts and minds. If that law is written on our hearts and minds then we will keep it, all ten of them, not to be saved but as a result of our being saved. Also take special note of I John 2:4, 5 KJV. “He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But who so keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.” John says if you don’t keep God’s commandments (all ten of them for what other commandments do we find that we are told to keep) then you are a liar. I have said some very straightforward things in this response; but they all come from the Bible, not EGW. End of fb conversation | ||
| Mountaingirl Registered user Username: Mountaingirl Post Number: 17 Registered: 8-2013 |
Do Adventists really believe that all there is to the New Covenant is the promise from God that the law (ten commandments) are now written in our hearts then thinking because the law is written in their hearts they then can and will keep it? See my paragraph above that a cousin wrote trying to convince me that the 10 laws are still binding as written in the OT. | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 3210 Registered: 7-2007 |
Yes, they think the only differences is that the 10 are written on their hearts now and that Jesus only fulfilled part of the law - the part concerning sacrifices and such. They don't realize that all the various kinds of Sabbaths; annual/seasonal, monthly and weekly were a shadow of Jesus - Colossians 2:16-17 as well as other places in the Bible say this.. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 10069 Registered: 3-2004  |
I learned nothing, nada, about the New Covenant as a student in SDA schools. It has only been since I have left that I have heard them speak of it. As said above they say the New Covenant is the Old Covenant written on the heart. That is so unbiblical. Diana | ||
| Terryohare Registered user Username: Terryohare Post Number: 2 Registered: 2-2012 |
Asurprise...it [i]is[i] a great post. You hit on the main themes of the controversy and cited the major texts. You also acknowledge the difficulty that Sabbatarians experience trying to comprehend what seems like a rational explanation of your belief system. It is a spiritual matter, and not merely intellectual. It is not like teaching addition to 1st graders. That spiritual divide may be breached by some arguments, but others may need more information before they start to understand. When I studied the topic thoroughly, I realized that the Sabbath has major connections with a wide variety of biblical beliefs. That is to say that it is wrapped up in a web of other beliefs that shape its understanding. There is a Sabbatology. While the progression from the old to the new makes sense to you, some Sabbatarians may wonder why Paul cited the old covenant law to new covenant believers (1 Cor 9:9; 1 Tit 5:18) if the old covenant is obsolete. They still have a difficult time understanding how the Ten Commandments can lose its luster during the new covenant when the apostles cite some of the Ten Commandments (Rom 13:9; Jas 2:11). Mountaingirl. Adam and Eve's sin was not breaking the Sabbath. That is, your cousin has not demonstrated that the Sabbath command pre-dated sin. In the strictest sense, after their ejection from the Garden, no other human being could have transgressed the same law (not eating of the tree) that bound Adam and Eve. However, all humans can fall in the same way as Adam and Eve by failing to believe God's word. This expanded view of our parent's sin is the same sin that Sabbatarians commit: chasing after the Sabbath when He has clearly rendered it inoperative (Col 2:16). It is a wonder how the Decalogue can be the ministry of death when engraved on stone but the ministry of life when engraved on the heart. Why would God wait so long to do the latter if it was so ineffective in its former state? Paul avered that the Decalogue was being brought to an end and no longer had any glory. But Sabbatarians treat the Decalogue as a living document and they even revere it. This is a major disconnect with the teachings of Paul. | ||
| Grace2 Registered user Username: Grace2 Post Number: 7 Registered: 8-2013 |
@ Terryohare I liked your post. You mention that Sabbatarians chase after the Sabbath when God has clearly rendered in inoperative and refer to Col 2:16. I have done so in the past and the reply I got was that the issues mentioned in Col. 2 have to do with "human tradition" and "human precepts and teachings" (v. 8 and 22) but that the various OT laws in general (food laws, tithe) and the Decalogue in particular are divine rather than human precepts and therefore not part of what Paul has in view when writing to the Colossians. In other words, my argument that food laws were for the Jews just like the Sabbath is seen as weak. How do you - or anyone one else from the FAF community - deal with this argument? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 14609 Registered: 12-2003  |
Terry, great post! Grace, I don't know a good way to counter those arguments because they are rebellious and don't want to see. The entire context before and after Co. 2:16 makes it clear what is being discussed, but the Adventist proof-text method disallows the normal meanings of words. The EGW hermeneutic deliberately changes the contextual, normal meanings of the words, ad people who don't want to see, won't. I don't a good argument;I do know that a study of the covenants is the "answer"...but people have to be willing to see the truth. Colleen | ||
| Punababe808 Registered user Username: Punababe808 Post Number: 587 Registered: 4-2012 |
How do you pronounce the word " hermeneutic" and please explain the meaning of the word. Thanks | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 2932 Registered: 5-2007  |
Biblical hermeneutics is concerned with the principles of interpretation of the words found in the Bible. Hermeneutics: ‘her’ ‘ma’ ‘knew’ ‘ticks’ Fearless Phil | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 3221 Registered: 7-2007 |
Terryohare; welcome to the forum! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 14613 Registered: 12-2003 |
Huh! I'd never looked at hermeneutics like that before, Phil! Colleen | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 2933 Registered: 5-2007 |
Well Colleen, I am the guy back in the days of high school where my grasp of English (or any other) grammar drove my English teacher so crazy he gave up teaching and became a local politician. Take phonetics for instance. How can any logical person sound out a word which is spelt with a ‘ph’ but has a ‘f’ sound to it? I do realize I over simplified the definition of hermeneutics somewhat.  Fearless Phil | ||
| Punababe808 Registered user Username: Punababe808 Post Number: 595 Registered: 4-2012 |
So, Colleen, how do you pronounce hermeneutics? I really want to know how to correctly pronounce that word. | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 2934 Registered: 5-2007 |
Punababe808, Here is how to say 'hermeneutics': http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dr7DZaVgoUg Fearless Phil | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 14616 Registered: 12-2003 |
Phil, perhaps you equipped your English teacher with some good rhetoric...!! I can imagine that you were actually quite a good student, however severely you judge your grammar skills. When I think how the abuse in our Adventist pasts messed with our minds and emotions, it's a wonder some of us made it at all. When I look back at my students in Adventist academies/jr. academies, I realize now that some of them were suffering unspeakably. No WONDER they had academic and/or social issues at school!! Colleen | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 2935 Registered: 5-2007 |
My last year in SDA schools was the ninth grade. After that I finished up in public schools and averaged a straight ‘D’ in English. At the same time I joined the California Cadet Corps where leadership skills were stressed. In my senior year I wrote and acted out, with another student, a safety skit that turned out well. It was the first time ever I had any hint I might have anything in the way of literature abilities. Much later during my shipyard apprenticeship I was required to give a ‘five minute’ speech in English class. The assignment had me absolutely terrified of failure. However, when I stood up a began talking, I ignored my outline and launched into my topic. Some twenty minutes later I had so captivated the class the instructor finally had to cut me off so others could get their assignments completed. It was then I first realized I had any literature or communication skills. Later on in college I excelled in English Literature which led me to becoming a shipyard trade instructor. Since there is no such thing as textbooks for my trade I was forced to write most of my material for class use. About the same time this was when I began researching and writing why I was no longer an Adventist. Back in grade school and high school I really was a terrible student in English class but excelled in geometry, drafting and math classes along with learning how to weld. Who I was then is not who I am now. The credit for that all goes to our Savior Jesus Christ. My old high school English teacher would certainly most amazed. Fearless Phil | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 14623 Registered: 12-2003 |
Well, Phil, I am NOT amazed. You are very bright, and you also have the mind of Christ (1 Cor 2:16). You are a very articulate and succinct writer! Colleen | ||
| Anewstart Registered user Username: Anewstart Post Number: 8 Registered: 10-2013 |
Colleen and Phil, You both have very good communication skills. And you've touched on something (SDA education) which calls for a new topic which I will post now. |
