| Author | Message | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 2005 Registered: 7-2004  |
I was golfing earlier this week with another Former and this topic came up in discussion. Is it necessary to repent of being SDA? His immediate reaction was rather startled, "I've never thought of any need to do that." I was lost in thought thinking of my own answer to the question that I had raised (and trying to figure out how to land my drive in the fairway). Several days later I think I have my answer, and I believe that the answer is "Yes". The Biblical examples that I see responding to two common objection helps me reach this conclusion: I think the examples from the Pharaoh's who took Sarah (Gen 12 and 20) provide a good example. They were fooled, yet their generous gifts to Abraham appear to be a repentance. Even if we were fooled, whether from birth or later in life, we are still responsible and accountable for the action.
In Jonah, the sailors were doing God's will when they threw Jonah overboard, yet they still repented of what they did to Jonah offering sacrifices (1:16). If these sailors felt in fear of God, wanting to sacrifice and make vows after doing His explicit clear will, where does that leave us? Would repenting of SDAism cause one to view it differently? Will it make one more urgent in their desire to see other brought out of this religion? Does repenting of SDAism help the process of transitioning? Is calling for repentance its own type of legalism? | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 1021 Registered: 8-2008 |
Repentance isn't simply a matter of admitting fault. Repentance is a matter of turning from falsehood, sin, and the world, towards God. How can one not need to repent of being SDA? We fall to deception because we do not believe God. Eve fell to deception because she didn't believe what God said about eating from the Tree of Knowledge. People don't lose their faith in God because they get deceived. They fall to deception because they have no faith in God in the first place. People are not lost and under God's wrath because they believe in false religions. They believe in falsehood because they are lost and under wrath. Seen that way, one who is born again ought to repent (turn from) the deceptions he believed when he was still lost. How could he not? Yes, because one is openly admitting that SDAism is based on falsehood and therefore in rebellion to God. Yes, because it spares one from the subtle, relativistic idea you often hear that its okay for someone to be SDA, because having all the right doctrine isn't a big deal. Repentance means recognizing that the thing repented of is really an act of rebellion. Absolutely. It means admitting the truth about oneself and one's past. Our Lord instructed us that His church's mission was to proclaim repentance and forgiveness of sins in His name to all nations (Luke 24:47). When the church preaches forgiveness without preaching repentance, it downplays the wickedness of sin and ends with a relativistic, therapeutic doctrine like we see today. Ultimately it removes grace because people aren't saved from anything, since there wasn't anything one would need to be saved from, like God's wrath for instance. But conversely, when the church preaches repentance without forgiveness, it preaches a doctrine of works righteousness. It ends up preaching, like Ellen White did, that sins must be fully conquered and forsaken in order to have eternal life. But then you never know how much repentance or forsaking or conquering is enough, or whether you've repented well enough, etc. In the end, to preach repentance without forgiveness is not to teach repentance at all, since it only means turning from one form of rebellion to another and possible greater rebellion, self-righteousness. And that brings me back to the beginning. Since SDAism, along with all other false gospels, are ultimately about self-righteousness (that one can be righteous in himself without the imputation of Christ's righteousness), repenting of one's self-righteousness ought to mean repenting of SDAism. (Message edited by bskillet on May 30, 2013) | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 2008 Registered: 7-2004 |
Plenty of people feel that they weren't lost when they were SDA, instead they see that they had faith, but an incomplete understanding. Does that factor into the need to repent? Or is that a simply a rationalization? | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1760 Registered: 7-2003  |
If I embraced and promoted a false gospel, and I did, then I need to repent of that false gospel and turn away from it. If I embraced and promoted a corrupt view of Jesus and His work, and I did, then I need to repent of it and turn away from it. It's not really an issue of whether or not I was sincere. In this particular case, I don't even think the issue of whether or not I was saved as an Adventist is the determiner of whether or not I need to repent. The issue here is whether or not I was guilty of (even in ignorance) twisting the gospel and the person and work of Jesus. Even in my ignorance I believe I am guilty of this and that I need to repent and turn away from it, knowing that I am already forgiven. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 14457 Registered: 12-2003  |
I absolutely agree, Rick, Bskillet, and Chris. I must repent of my commitment to something that mimicked the gospel and the Lord Jesus. If I inherit a pearl from a grandmother, let's say—but then I learn that it's a fake, I simply do not have the pearl of great price. And even before I knew it was fake, I did NOT have the inheritance that I believed I did. If I had tried to sell it BEFORE I knew it was fake, I would have been horrified, embarrassed, angry, and betrayed to learn it was worth nothing. I believe that, unless we acknowledge our need to repent of our Adventism, we fail to acknowledge how bad it is. As long as we think of it as a sincere mistake, we give it a pass, and we do not admit nor identify the deadliness of its worldview. Unless I acknowledge my need to repent of it, I cannot see it as something from which my loved ones must be rescued. As Paul Carden said once, if one is not believing in the true, biblical Jesus, one is not believing unto salvation. Colleen | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 1022 Registered: 8-2008 |
Ric, I would answer your question with a question: Is repentance only a one-time thing done at conversion, or is it a regular practice for those who are born again, that facilitates continued spiritual growth and sanctification? | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 678 Registered: 4-2007 |
Hi everyone! Interesting question…as a 'not born' Adventist but a 36 year member I do not see my being an Adventist as a sin to be repented of. I remember clearly that it was at the first Adventist Evangelistic meeting that I discover and accepted that there is a Sovereign God and the Bible is His Word. To me those 36 years were a journey of discovery accompanied by the Holy Spirit. As a SS teacher I felt inadequate to the task so I spent hours studying the Bible in order to feel somewhat confident in what I was saying. I started seeing conflicts between the lessons and God's word but put it down to the individual who wrote the lesson. More study, I started to get a glimmer of the Gospel, more conflict with what the Adventist Church (not just an individual) taught and the Bible. More study and, at my last Adventist Evangelistic meeting, I realized that there was something seriously wrong in what they were preaching. More study and a year going to church on Saturday and churches on Sunday. I came to realize that the 'seriously wrong' was that Adventists believed a false gospel, I stopped attending the SDAC and have never looked back, I just look forward. Yeah, it took 36 years but worth every minute of it, for what I learned is indelibly printed on my mind and heart. I KNOW what I believe and WHY I believe it Those 36 years were my experience of God's leading me to His TRUTH. Time is meaningless to God and those 36 years are meaningless to me in the face of eternity. Each of us have our individual journeys but… did we not ALL of us end up in the same place, in His TRUTH? It was the journey, THAT'S WHAT IT TOOK! Do you really wish to repent of that? ALL GORY TO GOD!! John Douglas Saved by the Grace of our loving Father through Faith alone in Christ alone, who died for me that I might have life. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 2009 Registered: 7-2004 |
Interesting points John. What you describe is something I wrestle with periodically. Is it the journey that God sent me on, or is it God working all things together for good despite walking outside of His will? Or in terms closer to how you phrased it, Is that what it required or is that simply what God used? I certainly don't regret what God has taught me along the way, nor am I suggesting that. | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 1023 Registered: 8-2008 |
Correct me if I am wrong here, but isn't the Bilblical definition of repentance to change one's mind? So if one is confronted with the truth of God, and one doesn't repent of believing falsehood, than one is still believing falsehood. As Churchill once said, "When a man who is honestly mistaken is confronted with the truth, he will either quit being mistaken, or cease to be honest." Most SDAs, I believe, are the latter, since no one, in the end, can honestly accuse God of withholding the truth. To my understanding, everyone on here who has rejected the SDA "gospel" for the Gospel of Jesus has in fact repented: They have changed their minds. I think part of the issue here is we are cofusing confession of sin with repentance. They are distinct concepts, though often they occur together. To the extent that anyone here partook in teaching a false gospel, that is a sin they ought to confess of, even if it was a sin of ignorance. But repentance--a change of mind--would have to necessarily precede such confession. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 2010 Registered: 7-2004 |
Repentance in Scripture is a change of mind, but it is often a particular type of change, a change where one recognizes and is greatly sorrowed by their sin and changes their mind in regards to that sin. One would have to consider SDAism not just incorrect, but sinful, in order to repent in this manner. I would see the order just the opposite, instead of needing to change our minds (repent) in order to recognize the sin (confess), I think we would need to recognize that it was sin before we could truly change our mind regarding it. Although maybe it is recognize, repent, confess. But based on your points, perhaps my question could be better worded.
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| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1762 Registered: 7-2003 |
This! | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 679 Registered: 4-2007 |
" Do we need to recognize that being SDA was sinful?" YES, because of SDAC theology ALL Adventists deny that THEY ARE BORN SINFUL and can be saved ONLY by God's Grace through faith in Christ. (just visit CARM for frothing at the mouth denials of sinfulness - Ellen trumps TRUTH) YES #2: Adventism is a refutation of God's Gospel, whether thru ignorance (no excuse) or outright rejection, which I believe is the ultimate case. (see CARM - Ellen trumps TRUTH) This is true of every Adventist I have met. Adventism is rebellion against God's Truth. Members are willing participants in this sin, rejecting God's free gift of salvation. That is why I left, to embrace God's truth. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 2012 Registered: 7-2004 |
John, Did all of us, through ignorance or will, participate in rebellion and sin? | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 8110 Registered: 9-2006  |
Rebellion is sin, the words are interchangeable.Its not 'and'. Adventism was born in the rebellion of Ellen White as witnessed by the Methodist church record where they tried to give correction about date setting, and she refused. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 8111 Registered: 9-2006 |
I've been thinking about this thread since yesterday, even prayed for the answers to my questions. I think many former Adventist think of themselves as victims, and I agree with that. So where does the responsibility come in? Here's what I am thinking so far. We were all victims of the devil, taken captive by him. Lets consider this scripture: Luke 4:18 "The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, Because He has anointed Me To preach the gospel to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to the captives And recovery of sight to the blind, To set at liberty those who are oppressed; Luke 4:19 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord." I would think that a captive is also a victim. Jesus died to save sinners. God has made a way of salvation. We have all come short of the glory of God. That is what the bible says, and we know that in our hearts too. I'm not saying that anyone needs to repent from being Adventist, but what I am saying is, we all need to ask forgiveness for all sin, and re-enter into fellowship with God. Sometimes I shotgun it, and say "God forgive me of all my sins, whatever they are." Not because I am afraid I'll loose my salvation, but because I want to be in good fellowship with the one that paid so high a cost, and because I love him. I don't think this may help anyone process out, its just some thoughts, but the ones who can't come to the conclusion that Adventism is not just a Christian organization with some bad beliefs are the ones I worry about. They come out of Adventism still considering the Adventist beliefs as harmless, then they end up in just as bigger messes as they come out of. This really bothers me. When they have a chance to be free, they still can't seem to get free. Jesus came to free the captives, the victims, the oppressed, and the broken hearted. Oh how I wish they would take advantage of that. River | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 10016 Registered: 3-2004  |
The longer I am out of adventism the more I see how unbiblical it is. I thank God for taking me out. Diana | ||
| Capross Registered user Username: Capross Post Number: 64 Registered: 7-2012 |
My story is very different from what I see here today. I was born and raised SDA without knowing much about it.(there are a lot of people like that). At the point I began to actually study my bible I began to see the untruths in the SDA church. Many times I asked God to let me leave the church and many times He said no. As an elder I preached my sermons based upon what the scripture says and I taught my classes based upon the scripture and not the quarterly. Many times I called the pastor and elders because of the untrue doctrines. Some people loved me and a lot of people disliked me. Along with some friends I started a weekly bible study. This study required study from the scripture and concordance alone. Studying through Pauls writings I was told many times "Anyone can twist Gods word to make it say what they want". All during the years I continued to ask the Lord to release me from my duties to this church. He always said no. Over the years: I have had one paster become furious when I asked why if Saturday is sacred does the church charge for the room and board at our schools on that day. Another pastor and his wife became very hurt and disappointed with me for asking the same question. Over the many years of doing the bible study and the prayer groups the pastor(s) and the other elder(s) would run as if they had been scalded if I invited them to attend. I still asked God to let me leave. He still said no. Finally He said yes. That is the day I left the church. I do not know why God wanted me to remain but I do know the He knows better than I what should be done. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 14462 Registered: 12-2003 |
God is in charge of the timing. I cannot explain why I was in Adventism for well over four decades and He releases others before they are 20, but there you go. He is in charge of the timing. That being said, we know God does not tempt us to sin or lead us to sin. We also know that we are born dead in sin, and even if a person is born again and then beguiled into Adventism, there is deception involved, whether by being born into falsehood or being deceived into it. I believe Adventism is not Christian. It is a false religion, and it's a very clever deception that entraps people and binds them in spiritual darkness and death. I believe all of us are touched by sin that is not the sin of our own choosing. We are sinned against as children and even as adults by people whose own sin causes them to transgress against us. Adventism is in that category, I believe. It is a transgression foisted onto us as tiny children, or it is a deception masquerading as an angel of light to adults who have vulnerable places inside. Either way, Adventism is sinful and dark. It is from the domain of darkness, and it does not have the true gospel. Even though God found me when I was an Adventist and gave me the desire to know Him and to trust His word, Adventism itself was idolatrous. It gave us gods to worship: Sabbath, the Law, the health message. It masqueraded as a better version of Christianity—more "complete", more biblical, more concerned with people's lifestyles. It was utterly deceptive, and I was completely shaped by it. Once I met Jesus, I began to see the depth of the Adventist darkness, and I did have to repent of it. To realize it is utterly dark and deceitful, spawned not by God and the gospel but by a false prophet inspired by an anti-Christ power, required that I repent of it, just as surely as I have had to repent for the ways I've sinned almost unconsciously against people because of the ways I had been wounded by transgressions done to me years before. God didn't show me everything at once, but when He let me see that EGWs visions had to come from Satan because of the ways they so powerfully deformed Jesus and the gospel, I had to repent. I just praise God that He rescued me from that mess! Colleen | ||
| Craig Registered user Username: Craig Post Number: 13 Registered: 2-2011 |
How ironic! "Come out of her my people"! | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 8113 Registered: 9-2006 |
I think about Canright, and how he didn't have the support former Adventist have today, and I wonder how that felt. That is another thing we can thank god for. I suppose Colleen and Richard didn't have near the support that former Adventist have today. How about that Colleen? How was the group support when you first came out? I've never heard you speak to that. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 14469 Registered: 12-2003 |
Well, there wasn't any. The gift God gave us was that we knew Dale Ratzlaff. He wasn't near us, but we went to see them one weekend to ask questions. That was a gift. Aside from that, we had one friend who was also asking questions, and I could talk to her now and then. But the process of figuring things out and leaving...we felt entirely alone. But Richard started this forum in 1999 precisely because we knew we would have LOVED to have support! It was entirely a product of our having felt so isolated as we came out. Colleen | ||
| Punababe808 Registered user Username: Punababe808 Post Number: 462 Registered: 4-2012 |
Jonvoil, yes the SDA church does not believe in original sin. I can't get a stright answer from an Adventist about at what point they believe a person starts sinning but generally they tell me it's when the person wil.lfully does wrong knowing what is right. I usually ask if that would be around the childs first birthday because one year olds are old enough to be sneeky. The conversation just detererates at that point and ends. |
