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Colossians2v8
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Username: Colossians2v8
Post Number: 183
Registered: 4-2012
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 29, 2013 - 5:38 pm: |     |
I think we all agree where it matters, but I don't believe God has to conform to our understanding of individualism, .
Colleen of course I believe Jesus and His Blood makes us saved, but there are other allusions, such as:
To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. John 8:31
It's not just my construct to say those who follow Jesus, or are under discipleship, are Christians, that is often the literal definition of Christian. I was only trying to illustrate how much more important it is to trust God instead of man. The definition of Christian is not "Being in agreement with most of Christendom"
I personally do much better than the average Christian when witnessing to Muslims, but perhaps that is my specific calling, I do not try to defend the Three Distinct Persons concept because I have not yet been able to qualify it as a core scriptural teaching, I do believe there are Three and these Three are One, as it says in 1 John 5:7 but the discussion I would've had with Chris would've been about the Persons part of Trinity Doctrine as it relates to the UPCI/Apostolic type beliefs, like: What exactly is heretical, how is it heretical, are they preaching a false gospel, is their Jesus not salvific, not the "One and Only who is at the Father's side" etc? If people are going to use the word heresy to dismiss and/or condemn other believers it would be nice to be required to express exactly what about their teachings are heretical from Scripture, otherwise it's just ad populum democratic theocracy. There IS a dictionary definition of heresy which is just basically that they do not believe the way most others believe, this would be ad populum democratic theocracy, I would hope that Scripture is requisite in making declarations of heresy.
In the video you've got a snarky designer-sunglasses-wearing pink-cellphone-carrying "Muslim" woman who would run the risk of being beaten to death in a Sharia Law country throwing around the word "entities" and schooling someone who is normally a very decent apologist probably from something her very westernized "Muslim" daddy told her, those guys need real witnessing too but they've already been shutdown with their preconceptions. And yes of course no one can come to Jesus unless God draws him to Him first, but still we should be instant in season and out of season.
I believe emphasizing that God is One and Inscrutable and "appeared in a body"/"was manifest in the flesh" does more good than slathering on advanced theological concepts... It's like Zechariah 12:10, I totally believe Him when He says "They will look upon Me whom they have pierced, and they will mourn for Him..." and it is showing Two there who are One and I believe that too, it's just Omnipotence from what little my peabrain can conceive  I have met people who believe there are three thrones for three persons of god in heaven, I hope those people never witness to muslims, when man invents a word man seems to always take things too far.
A person denying Jesus Christ of Nazareth, His teachings, Life, Blood Atonement, Deity, Resurrection, Covenant, etc, cannot properly classify themselves as Christian. Trinity is a human understanding of the mystery of godliness, and not God in itself. Having differing views on the mystery of godliness does not make one reject Jesus by default. In short Trinity is not God, God is God. Trinity is an understanding of God. Spiritual life hangs in the balance of accepting or denying Jesus Christ of Nazareth, "denying the Trinity" is a very chilling and a very widespread statement.
Do you believe baptizing in the name of Jesus Christ is invalid? I do not believe baptizing in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is invalid, red letters do not sway me more than black letters, I can either trust them all as Holy Spirit inspired or cannot trust them at all. "Trinity baptism" is never mentioned in the Book of Acts, but on multiple occasions baptizing "in the name of Jesus" is mentioned, I don't believe it's some spell that has to be just right, God knows the heart. There's one name under heaven by which men must be saved, I'm sure we could all agree on that as well. I would not want to waste anyone's time with things that are not salvation issues, I was mostly hoping that "heretic" might be Scripturally quantified.
I do sincerely apologize to the OP, this was never a challenge against the Apologetics Group, where they mention the UPCI they're just repeating the convictions of convicted kidnapper and self-proclaimed "cult expert" Rick Ross and in that are themselves victims, I do agree with the documentary overall and would recommend their "Hells Bells" 1 and 2 documentaries as well. |
Chris
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Username: Chris
Post Number: 1759
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 30, 2013 - 6:09 pm: | |
The Father, Son, and Spirit are Personally Distinct - Part I
So far in this thread I haven't seen any objections to these two truths that God has revealed about Himself in the pages of Scripture:
1. There is only one God, there are no others.
2. The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God.
The first Biblical truth rules out the heresy of polytheism (many gods) and tritheism (three gods). The Bible is quite clear that there is only one God (one Being) and there are no others.
The second Biblical truth rules out such heresies as Arianism (the belief that Jesus is a lesser being that is not fully God in the same sense as the Father). It also rules out other related heresies such as the idea that the Holy Spirit is only an impersonal force or perhaps some sort of lesser being that acts as an agent. The Bible is quite clear that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God and, as we have already said, they are ONE God (one Being).
However, if we simply stopped there we might fall into a third heresy, known as "modalism". Modalism teaches that God goes into different modes at different times. According to modalism, God is sometimes the Father, at other times the Son, and at still other times the Spirit. In the modern form of the modalism heresy, known as "Oneness Pentecostalism", God was the Father prior the incarnation, the Son during the incarnation, and the Holy Spirit after the ascension. However, this teaching runs directly counter to the teaching of scripture as we shall see today. Because this ancient heresy seems to again be gaining a foothold, including with at least one popular television evangelist, I would like to spend quite a bit of time on this. I will break this study up into two parts. The Biblical truth that the Father, Son, and Spirit are distinct persons may seem obvious to many, but sooner or later you will likely encounter someone who will dispute it.
According to the Bible, the one God has always existed in relationship to Himself. This means He is perfect and complete in Himself. He has never been lonely, He has never been without love, He has never been without communication, He has never had a need for anyone or anything. God creates as an act of grace, not need. God shares his love and grace and the gift of life with His creation. Anything we know about love, relationship, and communication comes from the fact that we were created with the imago dei (the image of God). We reflect, however incompletely, the communicable attributes of God such as love, relationship, communication, etc. These attributes are eternal and essential to the Being of God because He has eternally existed as the Father, Son, and Spirit.
I would like to begin presenting scriptures that teach that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct persons.
Let's look first at some scriptures that show that the Father and Son are two persons.
First we will examine some salutations from New Testament epistles that indicate that there is a personal distinction between the Father and Son.
quote:Romans 1:7 (NASB)
7 to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 1:3 (NASB)
3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Corinthians 1:2 (NASB)
2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Galatians 1:3 (NASB)
3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ,
Ephesians 1:2 (NASB)
2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Philippians 1:2 (NASB)
2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Thessalonians 1:1 (NASB)
1 Paul and Silvanus and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace.
2 Thessalonians 1:1-2 (NASB)
1 Paul and Silvanus and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:
2 Grace to you and peace from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Timothy 1:1-2 (NASB)
1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus according to the commandment of God our Savior, and of Christ Jesus, who is our hope,
2 To Timothy, my true child in the faith: Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.
2 Timothy 1:2 (NASB)
2 To Timothy, my beloved son: Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.
Titus 1:4 (NASB)
4 To Titus, my true child in a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.
Philemon 1:3 (NASB)
3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
James 1:1 (NASB)
1 James, a bond-servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes who are dispersed abroad: Greetings.
2 Peter 1:2 (NASB)
2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord;
2 John 1:3 (NASB)
3 Grace, mercy and peace will be with us, from God the Father and from Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.
Next we can see that the Father and Son are two distinct witnesses. The in the following passages, Jesus is appealing to the Old Testament mandate that there be two or three witnesses in order to make a testimony valid. If there is no personal distinction between the Father and Son, then Jesus' argument falls apart. I will list the Old Testament passages Jesus is appealing to first, followed by the reasoned argument that Jesus makes showing that the Father and Son are two distinct witnesses.
quote:Numbers 35:30 (NASB)
30 'If anyone kills a person, the murderer shall be put to death at the evidence of witnesses, but no person shall be put to death on the testimony of one witness.
Deuteronomy 17:6 (NASB)
6 "On the evidence of two witnesses or three witnesses, he who is to die shall be put to death; he shall not be put to death on the evidence of one witness.
Deuteronomy 19:15 (NASB)
15 "A single witness shall not rise up against a man on account of any iniquity or any sin which he has committed; on the evidence of two or three witnesses a matter shall be confirmed.
John 5:31-32 (NASB)
31 "If I alone testify about Myself, My testimony is not true.
32 "There is another who testifies of Me, and I know that the testimony which He gives about Me is true.
John 8:16-18 (NASB)
16 "But even if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone in it, but I and the Father who sent Me.
17 "Even in your law it has been written that the testimony of two men is true.
18 "I am He who testifies about Myself, and the Father who sent Me testifies about Me."
The following scriptures teach us that the Father sent the Son:
quote:John 3:17 (NASB)
17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
Galatians 4:4 (NASB)
4 But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law,
1 John 4:10 (NASB)
10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
John 17:18 (NASB)
18 "As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.
John 20:21 (NASB)
21 So Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you."
We also see a real relationship between the Father and the Son. The Father and the Son love each other:
quote:John 3:35 (NASB)
35 "The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand.
John 14:31 (NASB)
31 but so that the world may know that I love the Father, I do exactly as the Father commanded Me. Get up, let us go from here.
John 17:23-26 (NASB)
23 I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.
24 "Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.
25 "O righteous Father, although the world has not known You, yet I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me;
26 and I have made Your name known to them, and will make it known, so that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them."
In addition to loving each other, the Father speaks to the Son and the Son speaks to the Father.
quote:John 11:41-42 (NASB)
41 So they removed the stone. Then Jesus raised His eyes, and said, "Father, I thank You that You have heard Me.
42 "I knew that You always hear Me; but because of the people standing around I said it, so that they may believe that You sent Me."
John 12:28 (NASB)
28 "Father, glorify Your name." Then a voice came out of heaven: "I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again."
John 17:1-26 (NASB)
1 Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, "Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You,
2 even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life.
3 "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
4 "I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do.
5 "Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
6 "I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.
7 "Now they have come to know that everything You have given Me is from You;
8 for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me.
9 "I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours;
10 and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them.
11 "I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are.
12 "While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.
13 "But now I come to You; and these things I speak in the world so that they may have My joy made full in themselves.
14 "I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 "I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one.
16 "They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 "Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth.
18 "As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.
19 "For their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth.
20 "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word;
21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.
22 "The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one;
23 I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.
24 "Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.
25 "O righteous Father, although the world has not known You, yet I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me;
26 and I have made Your name known to them, and will make it known, so that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them."
Next time we will continue with scripture that teaches that the Son existed before His incarnation, Jesus is not the Holy Spirit, and the Father is not the Holy Spirit.
Chris |
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 14458
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 30, 2013 - 11:39 pm: | |
Chris, thank you. This is a wonderful study!
Colleen |
Angel9
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Username: Angel9
Post Number: 13
Registered: 5-2013
| | Posted on Friday, May 31, 2013 - 10:31 pm: | |
Very interesting conversation, and everyone was respectful. I like hearing different points of views on topics.
Colossians: I'm watching Dr. Phil and how he manipulated Doug Perry's story - unbelievable! I had thought Dr. Phil had some good shows and good insights... but wow, I can't respect him after seeing this! Editing pictures and showing images that just aren't true is really dishonest.  But, thanks for bringing this to our attention - I would rather know the truth about Dr. Phil. I wonder why he did this? What was his motivation? |
Chris
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Username: Chris
Post Number: 1761
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 01, 2013 - 9:26 am: | |
The Father, Son, and Spirit are Personally Distinct Part II
As mentioned last time, no one in this thread appears to disagree that the Bible clearly teaches:
1. There is only one God, there are no others.
2. The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God.
Last time we began examining scripture that teaches that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are personally distinct. We started by showing that the Father and Son are two persons. Today I would like to continue by presenting scripture that shows that the Father is not the Holy Spirit and Jesus is not the Holy Spirit. Finally, I will debunk the "Oneness Pentacostal" heresy by showing from scripture that the Son existed before His incarnation and even before creation.
Jesus is not the Holy Spirit
The Holy Spirit is "another Comforter":
quote:John 14:16 (NASB)
16 "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;
Jesus sent the Holy Spirit:
quote:John 15:26 (NASB)
26 "When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me,
John 16:7 (NASB)
7 "But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.
The Holy Spirit glorifies Jesus:
quote:John 16:13-14 (NASB)
13 "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.
14 "He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.
The Son and the Holy Spirit are distinguished as two persons:
quote:Matthew 28:19 (NASB)
19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
The Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus:
quote:Luke 3:21-22 (NASB)
21 Now when all the people were baptized, Jesus was also baptized, and while He was praying, heaven was opened,
22 and the Holy Spirit descended upon Him in bodily form like a dove, and a voice came out of heaven, "You are My beloved Son, in You I am well-pleased."
The Father is not the Holy Spirit
The Father also sent the Holy Spirit:
quote:John 14:26 (NASB)
26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.
John 15:26 (NASB)
26 "When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me,
The Holy Spirit intercedes with the Father for us:
quote:Romans 8:26-27 (NASB)
26 In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words;
27 and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.
The Father and the Holy Spirit are distinguished as two persons:
quote:Matthew 28:19 (NASB)
19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
As I mentioned last time, the heresy of modalism is making a modern day come back in the form of "Oneness Pentacostalism". Oneness Pentacostals teach that God was the Father before the incarnation, the Son during the incarnation, and the Spirit after the incarnation. In other words they teach that there is no personal distinction between the Father, Son, and Spirit, but these are just different "modes" that God has been in during different time periods. However, if it can be demonstrated from scripture alone that the Son existed before His incarnation and even before creation, then the Oneness construct falls apart and is disproven.
The following is an Old Testament text that makes reference to the Son:
quote:Proverbs 30:4 (NASB)
4 Who has ascended into heaven and descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has wrapped the waters in His garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name or His son's name? Surely you know!
We are also taught in scripture that the Son created all things:
quote:1:3 (NASB)
3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
8:6 (NASB)
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
1:16-17 (NASB)
16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.
17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
Hebrews 1:2 (NASB)
2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
Revelation 3:14 (NASB)
14 "To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning [I.e. Origin of Source] of the creation of God, says this:
Romans 11:36 (NASB)
36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.
Hebrews 2:10 (NASB)
10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings.
Acts 17:28 (NASB)
28 for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we also are His children.'
Jesus was with God the Father before creation:
quote:John 1:1 (NASB)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 17:5 (NASB)
5 "Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
It seems clear from the passages presented today and in part I that the Father, Son, and Spirit are personally distinct so we can now add the final Biblical truth to the truths that compose the Biblical basis of the Trinity:
1. There is only one God, there are no others.
2. The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God.
3. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are personally distinct.
Next time I will try to wrap this up with a few closing comments.
Chris
(Message edited by Chris on June 01, 2013)
(Message edited by Chris on June 01, 2013) |
Chris
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Username: Chris
Post Number: 1763
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, June 02, 2013 - 11:34 am: | |
To recap, scripture presents the following truths that God has revealed about Himself:
1. There is only one God, there are no others.
2. The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God.
3. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are personally distinct.
There is a very large wealth of scripture that teaches these truths. This raises the question, "Why do some deny one or more of these truths that are so clearly taught in the Bible?" I believe it is related to the age old human inclination to make gods in our own image or in the likeness of things we understand. The three truths listed above, as taught by the Bible, present an infinite God that is far beyond the comprehension of His finite creatures. It is a natural human impulse to try to redefine the infinite God in finite ways that we can grasp. However, to do this one is forced to deny one or more of the truths God has revealed about Himself. Let's take a brief overview of the most common heresies and how they each deny one of these Biblical truths.
Polytheism and Tritheism: Polytheism is the belief that there is more than one god. Tritheism is the belief that there are three gods. In other words, Tritheist believe that the Father, Son, and Spirit are separate beings that are each individually god. Polytheist (such as Mormons) and Tritheist (as can be found in some SDA circles) usually believe the second and third truths listed above. That is, they believe that the Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God, and the Father, Son, and Spirit are personally distinct. However, because they have trouble comprehending those truths in light of the first truth, there is only one God and there are no others, they simply choose to reject the first truth. This is simply not an option for the Bible believing Christian. The Bible is abundantly clear that there is only one God, there are no others. That's the bottom line, there is only one being that is God.
Arianism: Arianism is the belief that Jesus is not fully God in the same sense as the Father. Although there are variations on the theme, Jesus is usually seen as an exalted created being (as in Jehovah's Witnesses and early SDAs). Arians usually believe the first truth and the third truth, but reject the second truth. That is, they believe there is only one God and that the Father, Son, and Spirit are personally distinct (although many would object to calling the Spirit a person and would instead call him a "force"). However, since they are unable to fully comprehend these truths in light of the second truth that the Father, Son, and Spirit are God, they simply choose to reject the second truth. Arians will normally accept that the Father is God, but they will refuse to accept Jesus as God or the Holy Spirit as God despite the clear Biblical teaching on this matter.
Modalism: Modalist accept the first and second truth. That is, they believe that there is only one God and that the Father, Son, and Spirit are God. However, since they are unable to fully comprehend this in light of the third truth that the Father, Son, and Spirit are personally distinct, they simply choose to reject the third truth. Modalist believe that the Father, Son, and Spirit are simply different modes that God switches into at different times. In the modern version of this heresy God is said to have been the Father before the incarnation, the Son during the incarnation, and the Spirit after the ascension. This flies directly in the face of much scripture that teaches there are real personal relationships of love and communication between the Father, Son, and Spirit.
So what do all these heresies have in common? They all make God an understandable finite god, by blatantly denying one of the truths He has condescended to reveal about Himself. All of these heresies make God small enough for us to wrap our finite minds around. Unfortunately, they all present a god that is a different god from the one revealed in scripture.
As Christians we are called to bend the knee before our infinite God even though we cannot fully comprehend Him. We are called to accept what He has plainly revealed in dozens and dozens of passages all through the pages of scripture. When it comes right down to it, who would you rather worship, a god that is small enough to be grasped by his creatures, or one who is so big that He is beyond comprehension. The Bible presents the latter throughout its pages.
This brings up another problem. Everytime we want to refer to what the God of the Bible has revealed about Himself we can't practically launch into a multi-part Bible study series, nor can we begin to list pages and pages of texts. We need some way of simply summing up all that we have gleaned from scripture. Here is one of the best most concise summaries I have read that captures all three of the truths revealed in scripture:
quote:"Within the one Being that is God, there exist eternally three coequal and coeternal Persons, namely, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit." - James R. White (Christian Apologist - No relation to the person of the same name we are most familiar with.)
This is an excellent and concise statement of what scripture teaches, but even this sentence can be a mouth full when referring to the God of the Bible. Because this is true of many subjects that are taught throughout scripture, Christians have developed words that serve as a sort of short hand to sum up concepts taught in the Bible. In this case, I know of no other single word that is more helpful in summing up the concepts the Bible teaches other than "Trinity". While this word is not a word that is used in the Bible, it perfectly captures the essence of something that is most certainly taught in Scripture. We should not be afraid to use short hand words if they accurately represent plain Biblical truths. So the next time you hear someone say, "You know, the Trinity isn't anywhere in the Bible," you can reply with, "It's actually EVERYWHERE in the Bible! Let me show you the three things God has revealed about Himself in the pages of scripture."
"1. There is only one God, there are no others.
2. The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God.
3. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are personally distinct."
Chris |
Craig
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Username: Craig
Post Number: 11
Registered: 2-2011
| | Posted on Sunday, June 02, 2013 - 4:50 pm: | |
Thanks, Chris. That seems to settle it. I would like to emphasize a point you made in the first part. The Trinity has eternally been in relationship. Our God is a relational God. If he were not, I think all of us would have a hard time trusting him, especially if we believed that he created us so that he would not be lonely. There is only one God, but because he is in three persons, he has never been self-centered. The gospel is the testament to the glory of God. What agony the three experienced at the cross. We can never know the pain our God endured to save us. Amazing Grace!
Craig |
Ric_b
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Username: Ric_b
Post Number: 2013
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, June 02, 2013 - 5:41 pm: | |
Chris,
Thanks for another very well written study. |
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 14464
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 03, 2013 - 2:51 pm: | |
Chris, thank you. You are a good teacher!
Colleen |
Punababe808
Registered user
Username: Punababe808
Post Number: 459
Registered: 4-2012
| | Posted on Monday, June 03, 2013 - 9:12 pm: | |
My friend converted to Krishna Consciousness. His microwave didn't work so he went and asked his guru who to pray to to fix his microwave. The guru told him there was no God devoted to microwaves. He was distraught and asked the guru what he sbould do. The guru told Him he could either figure out a God to deal with microwaves or throw the microwave away and get a new one. He made up a God. It didn't work so he threout his microwave. |
Colossians2v8
Registered user
Username: Colossians2v8
Post Number: 184
Registered: 4-2012
| | Posted on Thursday, July 18, 2013 - 6:13 pm: | |
Chris, I appreciate you taking the time to post all of this, my apologies for taking so long to respond.
I have never heard of monarchial modalism in that way, that they believed God was shifting gears, becoming different people, I have really only heard monarchial modalism being used as an insult against Oneness Pentacostals, and they would in turn own it, make it theirs, because the kingship tends to have a lot of meaning for them-and that is where we have a lot in common. It seems obvious though, in hindsight, that monarchial modalism is not the same thing that Oneness Pentecostals believe, at least none that I have ever spoken to. The term comes from a long time ago and dealing with an unrelated group of believers.
All due respect Chris, you are simply wrong to say that Oneness Pentecostals believe this, as I was wrong also to say this, I've repeated monarchial modalism without ever realizing what it meant, because it's often used in the debates. I would ask that you point me to proof that they do believe this. It may be as simple as you repeating what is so often said about them. I have never met a Oneness Pentecostal that believed God was changing. "Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, and to day, and forever."
The Oneness Pentecostals I've been around very much emphasized Jesus Christ and Him Crucified over the many dogmas and traditions our ecumenical "protestant" denominations have come to know and love. I would say most of them are even simpletons by theological/scholarly standards, and this tends to do wonders for faith.... I realize it doesn't mess with everyone the same way, but knowledge corrupts very easily, and as such I was my own god as an atheist, because I Knew Better(tm).
I would say that by the supplied definition of monarchial modalism, I too would consider it apostate, and again, to my knowledge I have never met anyone that actually believes that.
My original question was how Oneness Pentecostal teachings are heretical, despite all the awesome scripture I don't really feel my question was answered, because I have never met a Pentecostal, Oneness or otherwise, who would argue against: God is Unchanging, Jesus Christ of Nazareth Always Existed, Before Abraham, Before Creation. I do believe this disqualifies them from being monarchial modalists, since you're saying it believes God is different people at different times?
So I'm still left at the same place, seeing one group emphasizing Three and another group emphasizing One
It's just an awesome mystery, I can claim to have the right answer, but there will always be something unfathomable about it.
Thanks again for taking the time to post all of that. |
Colossians2v8
Registered user
Username: Colossians2v8
Post Number: 185
Registered: 4-2012
| | Posted on Thursday, July 18, 2013 - 6:30 pm: | |
Punababe808
I'm very sorry to hear that. Krishna is an ancient demon god of mythology, who was said to have been born when his mother's womb was implanted with HAIR.... I'm not kidding... the new agers try to say Krishna was born of a virgin because of this... I mean seriously, zeus' head was presumably a virgin when he had a child pop out thus relieving his splitting headache, what's the difference?
Did you know that Yoga means "To yoke", it literally means to tie yourself to a pagan god... ya can't make this kind of thing up. """In Vedic Sanskrit, the more commonly used, literal meaning of the Sanskrit word yoga which is "to add", "to join", "to unite", or "to attach" from the root yuj, already had a much more figurative sense, where the yoking or harnessing of oxen or horses takes on broader meanings such as "employment, use, application, performance" (compare the figurative uses of "to harness" as in "to put something to some use"). All further developments of the sense of this word are post-Vedic. More prosaic moods such as "exertion", "endeavour", "zeal" and "diligence" are also found in Epic Sanskrit."""
I find it interesting that so many practices like these are antichrist by His very Words, who said "My yoke is easy." On so many occasions something like this is shown to be in full contradiction to the Word. |
Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1766
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, July 21, 2013 - 3:04 pm: | |
Col,
My understanding is that most Oneness Pentecostals do indeed emphasize Jesus and believe that Jesus is/was pre-existent. I did not intend to suggest otherwise. However, as I understand it, they believe that Jesus is the proper name of the one god and that Jesus is Himself the Father, and the Son, and the Spirit. So, according to Oneness Pentecostals, Jesus was the Father before the incarnation, Jesus was the Son during the incarnation, and Jesus is the Spirit after the ascension. Or to use terminology closer to what Oneness teachers often say when they quote a phrase used by early pioneers of the movement — "God was manifested as the Father in creation, the Son in redemption, and the Holy Ghost in emanation." If I am misunderstanding the position, I am certainly open to correction, but the point remains, Oneness teachers do not believe there are true subject/object distinctions in relationship to the Father, Son, and Spirit, while Christians maintain these personal relationships are a biblical reality that defines the one true God. So however, it you label it, the question comes down to, "According to the Bible, are the Father, Son, and Spirit personally distinct?" Oneness teachers answer that questions as "no" while orthodox Christians answer it at "yes". I believe the Bible (as shown above) strongly supports the orthodox Christian viewpoint. |
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