| Author | Message | ||
| Alison1 Registered user Username: Alison1 Post Number: 150 Registered: 10-2010 |
I wanted to find out if any of you have ever heard of the new classification of Seventh-day Adventist. I'm not sure where I saw (or heard) about it. But there seems to be a new theological group within the ranks of Adventism called Gospel-Oriented Seventh-day Adventism. I provided the link for all of you to check it out. My thoughts on it. It doesn't matter which theological grouping it is, if its Seventh-day Adventist, it will always be Seventh-day Adventist. No matter which way you slice it. Whether it's the Liberal group down to the Historic group. Not sure where it would fit. Probably somewhere between the liberal and evangelical groups. It doesn't make sense. They will always be Seventh-day Adventists no matter what. They will always hold fast to the unique teachings of the whole organization. http://www.reasons.org/blogs/reflections/evangelical-reflections-on-seventh-day-adventism-yesterday-and-today-part-3-of-3 | ||
| Wiredog Registered user Username: Wiredog Post Number: 297 Registered: 8-2010  |
Im surprised that the author of the article is Kenneth Samples. His Bio is here (http://www.reasons.org/about/who-we-are/kenneth-samples) and according to it he lectures for a series Master of Arts program in Christian Apologetics at Biola University and earned his MA in theological studies from Talbot School of Theology. Sounds like he need to talk with John Rittenhouse from BIOLA and even read Dr. Louis Talbot's article from BIOLAs former School Journal "The Kings Business" that Proclamation! republished. (http://lifeassuranceministries.org/studies/talbot1_reprint.pdf) --"Gospel-oriented Adventists are indeed genuine Adventists. They believe deeply that God raised the Seventh-day Adventist church up for a special purpose—to usher in the Second Coming of Christ. They also respect and honor the seventh-day Sabbath. In addition they believe that Ellen G. White possessed the spirit of prophecy. However, gospel-oriented Adventists owe their final allegiance to the authority of Scripture alone (sola Scriptura). White’s writings are tested by Scripture and not the reverse." Really? Then the only recourse would be to throw out the books of EGW as they are false teachings mixed in with truth. When you wear a clean white glove and dip it in a puddle of mud the puddle doesn't get GLOVEY, rather the glove gets muddy! --"The doctrinal feature that sets this branch of Adventism apart is its view of the gospel. Gospel-oriented Adventists believe that their right standing before God rests not in their own obedience to the Law of God, but rather they place their complete confidence in Jesus Christ and in his perfect substitutionary atonement for their sins on the cross.4 These evangelically oriented Adventists believe that salvation comes solely by grace, through faith alone, and only in Jesus Christ (Ephesians 2:8–9). They also believe that the Christian life is lived out passionately in gratitude to God for his precious gift of salvation (Ephesians 2:10)." Then the question is if they stopped going to church on the Sabbath and came to church on Sunday would they believe they are jeopardizing their chance at salvation? Does it increase their chance of loosing it? Simply relabeling Seventh-Day Adventism by prepending the term Gospel or Evangelical, does not a Christian make! Like calling something a cat-dog-bird-fish. Someone get a hold of this guy and add him to the Proclamation! distro list and fast. He's in danger of drinking too much of their kool-aid! (Message edited by wiredog on January 19, 2013) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 14211 Registered: 12-2003  |
Kenneth Samples used to work with Walter Martin and Paul Carden at Christian Research Institute. Samples was involved in researching Adventism before Martin died. Unfortunately, Samples has held onto the belief that Adventists are heterodox, not heretical, and should be considered Christian brothers. Just a few years ago (perhaps four or five) we saw Samples speaking at a meeting at LLU Church which was streamed online. Paul Carden has tried over the years to arrange a meeting with Samples, but so far Samples has apparently been unwilling to meet. He has been sent materials (current ones), and Carden has personally taken a position very different from Samples' position. Paul has publicly stated that Adventism is "deeply heretical" and that Christians should not fellowship with them. Samples has bought the notion that some Adventists are "evangelical". He has failed to see the permeating Adventist worldview that is grounded on a "spiritless" humanity and a fallible Jesus. Like Walter Martin, Samples has, I believe, bought the words the Adventists say to him. You know how it is: they parse their words and very subtly camouflage their double-speak. If you don't know what they THINK underneath their words, you won't know what their words mean. Colleen | ||
| Butterfly_poette Registered user Username: Butterfly_poette Post Number: 292 Registered: 5-2011  |
I have noticed that many SDAs these days have moved away from traditional Adventism. Many don't believe in Ellen White, or they say they believe in her but they don't read her much. There are many who don't have strict Sabbath observance. Many now wear jewelry, even though the church still doesn't let church workers or students wear it. Dancing isn't frowned on as much now, even though the SDA schools still don't sponsor dances. It have gone to other forums and posted about my experience while growing up VERY STRICT SDA, and always get some SDAs coming to the forums and saying "we SDAs aren't like that". The Investigative Judgment and the Sunday Law are also things they don't play up much now. They are just whitewashing their past. They also want to hold on to members. | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2930 Registered: 7-2007 |
This reminds me of a time years ago when I went to the Redwoods camp meeting in Northern California. I thought I was really "gospel oriented" myself as a younger, more "enlightened" Adventist, and looked with pity on all the old folks at the camp meeting whose faces were full of sadness and despair. The trouble was, I didn't have the gospel at all. I couldn't believe all the places where the Bible says that believers "have been saved" because Ellen White said that a believer should never say or feel they've been saved. Therefore I couldn't quite accept Jesus' finished work. I was almost, but not quite saved. I would have been shocked to know I was in the same "boat" as all those sad older people. | ||
| Punababe808 Registered user Username: Punababe808 Post Number: 280 Registered: 4-2012 |
SDA 's i know mix up the understanding of "gospel " with being able to not be so uptight & stoic during their worship. An example would be the young people who attend the SDA church i accompanied my mom to. The young people had upbeat music and raised their hands in song and prayer, etc.these youth misinterpreted this behavior as an example of displaying they have "the gospel ". | ||
| Wiredog Registered user Username: Wiredog Post Number: 298 Registered: 8-2010 |
Goes back to the basic question, Do they even understand what exactly IS the Gospel? Did we? | ||
| Nowisee Registered user Username: Nowisee Post Number: 1232 Registered: 5-2009 |
I agree, butterfly_poette, but you have not seen anyone in authority in the SDA organization (like the GC president, etc) standing up & saying, "We don't believe in all our distinctive doctrines, or EGW any more. We were wrong." It's like, "we don't have to do/believe some of this stuff anymore, but we can't really say it out loud... or renounce it". Twilight zone. (I'm SDA, but I'm not REALLY SDA). ?????? "I'm a member of the church but don't really believe all the beliefs of the church of which I'm a member..." | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 14222 Registered: 12-2003 |
Nowisee, you are absolutely right. They talk out of both sides of their mouths; it's crazy-making. They, as I once did also, are able to remain a loyal Adventist while arguing that I didn't believe everything. At the same time, I had a bit of a hard time actually giving up the potential belief that EGW was a prophet. Even after I said I didn't consider her a true prophet, or at least not a reliable prophetic voice, I still thought, "Well, she MIGHT be right..." and continued to hold onto understandings that just might be true because EGW said them. My picture of heaven was one thing I had a hard time giving up; even after I knew she was wrong about the gospel, I still thought she MIGHT be right...I had to consciously choose to let go of some of those sentimental pictures of the future because I knew I couldn't believe a word she said. The double-speak is the nature of Adventist deception. The article on spiritual abuse in the last Proclamation describes it well. Colleen | ||
| Vjs Registered user Username: Vjs Post Number: 7 Registered: 5-2011 |
I went to the link and looked at the statement being made and have a qestion on SDAs preaching the true gospel. Here is the part that I have trouble with. The doctrinal feature that sets this branch of Adventism apart is its view of the gospel. Gospel-oriented Adventists believe that their right standing before God rests not in their own obedience to the Law of God, but rather they place their complete confidence in Jesus Christ and in his perfect substitutionary atonement for their sins on the cross.4 These evangelically oriented Adventists believe that salvation comes solely by grace, through faith alone, and only in Jesus Christ (Ephesians 2:8–9). They also believe that the Christian life is lived out passionately in gratitude to God for his precious gift of salvation (Ephesians 2:10). Evangelical Adventists also recognize that Adventism’s important doctrinal distinctives of Sabbatarianism, the spirit of prophecy, and the belief in the imminence of Christ’s Second Coming are only made truly meaningful when a person fully embraces the gospel of grace. Evangelical Adventists insist that if God raised their church up for a special purpose, then they definitely can’t afford to get the gospel message wrong. Since when have they ever taught the true gospel. And maybe I have been out of the church long enough to not know of this new group that has formed, that is now teaching Grace by faith alone? | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2932 Registered: 7-2007 |
In case I haven't already said so; Welcome to the forum, Vjs!  I haven't heard of this group, but if they're Adventist, wouldn't they have to believe in Ellen White? She and the gospel don't agree. The Bible says that salvation is a free gift and that a believer "has been saved," but Ellen White says something to the effect of, "no, only IF you are overcoming every sin and of course no one is saved NOW because you can be tempted in the future!" If you google the E.G.White estate and type "say saved" in the search box, you can find her statements. I just found one in her book "Christ's Object Lessons," page 155 and she does say that no one should say or feel they are saved because they can be tempted in the future. That's SO unbiblical! All those verses in the Bible that say a believer "has been saved" and that salvation is a "free gift" would be false if Ellen White were true. (Also check out 1st John 2:12. Now there's a mind blowing verse!) | ||
| Mjcmcook Registered user Username: Mjcmcook Post Number: 874 Registered: 2-2011  |
IMO~ Adventists can "package" their false gospel anyway they want to; It is still just the "same ole, same ole, pack of lies!" It all goes back to the tainted pool of 'egw'; Whom they refuse to renounce! Because to do so, would cause them to have to humble themselves and repent before GOD, of their perpetuation of deceit. Only GOD, can bring this about~ ~mj~ | ||
| Lyrical Registered user Username: Lyrical Post Number: 124 Registered: 4-2012 |
Our previous pastor's wife told me she came to a place in her heart where she realized she could only remain an Adventist when she decided that "in her heart" she wasn't an Adventist! For real!! I remember looking at her and wondering how the heck she could externally embrace the SDA teachings and lifestyle and act as expected as a pastor's wife and secretly tell herself that her identity was not SDA. She felt totally fine with this. I thought it was crazy... | ||
| Mjcmcook Registered user Username: Mjcmcook Post Number: 876 Registered: 2-2011 |
IMO~ Crazy-making~indeed! Another word that could be used is Schizophrenic? By using this term, I do not believe it is a 'stretch'~ another word could be denial? Harmony of mind and heart produces 'Peace'~ Don't kid yourself~ your pastor's wife was not "fine" with her 'secret'! ~mj~ | ||
| Punababe808 Registered user Username: Punababe808 Post Number: 283 Registered: 4-2012 |
I don't understand. It does not have logic. How can she be SDA only if in her heart she isn't SDA. Is that like The person who commits adultry but says to her or himself it's OK because he or she really loves only his or her spouse? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 14227 Registered: 12-2003 |
Lyrical, your pastor's wife is a perfect example of the crazy-making Vjs described above. All Adventists have the same worldview. They may articulate different "beliefs", but the ALL believe the Sabbath is eternal and will be part of the end-time "test of obedience". They all believe man is purely physical and does not have an immaterial spirit which survives his death. They all believe Jesus and Satan are locked in a still-unfinished battle. They all believe Satan is the scapegoat who will finally be punished for their sins. They all believe Jesus was JUST LIKE US with no advantage whatsoever: in other words, He didn't have an immaterial spirit, either. They believe He could have failed and that He ceased to exist over the Sabbath hours, keeping the created day "holy" during his death. They all believe Jesus has eternally given up his divine attribute of omnipresence. They can say what they want. They can SAY the law and the Sabbath will not save them. But see if they'd ever risk giving up the Sabbath. They believe they will be lost by trampling the Sabbath after "knowing the Sabbath truth". This is not salvation by grace alone. You can't be saved by grace but lost by works. We cannot be lost by works any more than we can be saved by them. They talk a good line, but they have private meanings. Colleen | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2933 Registered: 7-2007 |
Point out John's letter to an Adventist and ask him/her if 1st John 2:12 would still be true by the time the believers got the letter. I wonder what they would say. I pointed that out to one of my SDA relatives and she said that only applied to children. So then, according to her, only children have their future sins forgiven??? Even that is an awfully big concession for an Adventist, because to them, no one's future sins are forgiven! It's amazing the twists and turns they do in order to not believe exactly as the Bible teaches - though they convince themselves that they are believing the Bible! Wow! Such darkness! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 14321 Registered: 12-2003 |
This past week we received an email from Kenneth Samples asking us to please post his response to this thread. I believe Samples is responding to my post #14211 above. Here is his statement:
As you can see, he misunderstood what I said. I did not say nor did I mean to imply that Paul Carden and Kenneth Samples were no longer in communication. In fact, I did not know that fact until I received Samples' email. I intended to say that Paul Carden had asked Samples to meet with him and us together, but Samples had not responded to that request. My understanding was that Samples was not willing to meet with Richard and me to discuss Adventism; I did not think nor mean to suggest that Samples' was not communicating with Paul Carden. Samples' response above clarifies his personal position regarding Adventism (besides revealing a silence between him and his former colleague over non-disclosed matters). Those of us who have been rescued from the darkness of Adventism know that Samples has been deceived in the same ways Walter Martin was deceived. Unless a person understands what Adventists mean when they use their "Christian vocabulary", the "outsider" will not know what Adventism really teaches. I am thankful to Kenneth Samples for contacting us and for sending his statement of his own belief about Adventism. He has clarified to us better than all our speculation could have where he stands. Colleen | ||
| Mjcmcook Registered user Username: Mjcmcook Post Number: 1005 Registered: 2-2011 |
I write this with, all due Respect to Mr. Samples~ I reference James 3:1. The Amplified Bible. " Not many of you should become teachers,(self-constituted censors and reprovers of others),my brethren, for you know that we (teachers) will be judged by a higher standard and with greater severity (than other people; thus we assume the greater accountability and the more condemnation)". In light of the text above, I believe it behooves those who are self-proclamined teachers or those who have chosen teaching as their profession to prayerfully consider the 'mantle' they carry. Remember, there is often a temptation to teach more than you know. 1 Timothy 1:7 says it like this, " They want to be teachers...but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm." (NIV). There is for the teacher the capacity to mislead. This is done, often because of lack of prayerfully studying Scripture, and depending on human understanding far too much, which leads to promoting heresy, according to, 2 Peter 2:1-2. If a person wants to teach, the following Scriptures should make you pause, considering the consequences. The human judgment, Galatians 1:10 Stricter divine judgment, Luke 12:48 Causing others to stumble, James 3:1 Sincerely, ~mj~ (Message edited by mjcmcook on March 09, 2013) | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 2034 Registered: 12-2007  |
It saddened me to read Mr Samples letter. It is very clear that he just plain does not understand Adventism. That is understandable. Unless you have lived it, breathed it and believed it with your heart and soul and then had the veil removed and learned the true Gospel of Jesus Christ and seen first hand the vast differences, it is understandable that he would not see the dangers that lurk there. Meeting with Adventist scholars, pastors, etc and hearing their excuses and cover ups is NOT the same as having LIVED the SDA life. |
