| Author | Message | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 2833 Registered: 5-2007  |
Since I’ve been out of Adventism will over fifty years I think more like a ‘never-been’ Adventist than a former Adventist. So, my question is: How did you in your former life as an Adventist interpret the following passage?
After all, why would the seventy-two evangelist Jesus sent out and returned to report their experiences know that their names are written in written in heaven and not understand that this means that their names are recorded in the Book of Life? To me it sure sounds like they have been informed that they have ‘eternal salvation’ and that this is what they should rejoice about. Phil (Message edited by philharris on February 28, 2013) | ||
| Free2dance Registered user Username: Free2dance Post Number: 671 Registered: 2-2010 |
As an Adventist, I thought the Book of Life was the book our names were written in when we excepted Jesus and that this was the same book that the Angels were recording our sins in. Do Adventists distinguish between the book of life and the IJ book? I have always been very interested in the "Satan fall from Heaven" part. I would like to know more about that. | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 881 Registered: 5-2002  |
Fearless Phil, evidently you have forgotten the Adventist teaching that an integral part of the Investigative Judgment is Jesus blotting out the names of those believers previously written down if they did not achieve the required perfection of character. In other words, your name might be written in the Book of Life today, but can be blotted out tomorrow. *PROOFTEXT ALERT* "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." Revelation 3:5 Ellen White wrote this about it: "Christ says of the overcomer, “I will not blot out his name out of the book of life.” The names of all those who have once given themselves to God are written in the book of life, and their characters are now passing in review before him. Angels of God are weighing moral worth. They are watching the development of character in those now living, to see if their names can be retained in the book of life. A probation is granted us in which to wash our robes of character and make them white in the blood of the Lamb. Who is doing this work? Who is separating from himself sin and selfishness? “Ye are dead,” says the apostle Paul of the true followers of Christ, “and your life is hid with Christ in God.” When we are alive to God, we are dead to self. May God help us to die to self. Whose names will not be blotted out of the book of life? Only the names of those who have loved God with all the powers of their being, and their neighbors as themselves." Ellen G. White, Lift Him Up, page 326 | ||
| Free2dance Registered user Username: Free2dance Post Number: 674 Registered: 2-2010 |
OK, hold the phone! So what does that text mean then? "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." Revelation 3:5 RE: EGW-- she has messed a LOT of people up... | ||
| 1john2v27nlt Registered user Username: 1john2v27nlt Post Number: 454 Registered: 5-2009 |
Jesus said "I have overcome the world." and we overcome by the blood of the Lamb who was slain from the foundation of the world. WE overcome in HIM, by his overcoming. Not by any effort on our part. I came to that understanding after several trips thru the bible. J9 | ||
| Free2dance Registered user Username: Free2dance Post Number: 675 Registered: 2-2010 |
I love this one too. It is written by John who also wrote Revelation. 1 John 5:4 For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. I definitely believe that overcoming is about our faith. And boy what a relief when I first saw this. I just wonder why there is even a reference to removing a name from the book of life if that isn't an option...? Once it's there, it's because we were born again, right? | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 882 Registered: 5-2002 |
The following is purely conjecture on my part. Jesus died for the sins of the whole world. Therefore, the whole world is written in the Lamb's Book of Life. But the whole world will not believe. Therefore, it remains that those who do not believe have been blotted out. "Those who do not believe are condemned already because they have not believed in the only begotten Son of God." | ||
| 1john2v27nlt Registered user Username: 1john2v27nlt Post Number: 455 Registered: 5-2009 |
Thanks for that scripture Free 2dance - that's one of the ones I noted. It's our faith in HIM. And we are clothed in His righteousness. We just accept the wedding garment - Mt 22 | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 8097 Registered: 9-2006  |
Good answer Freeatlast.I'll take that one over EW's one scripture doctrines any day.  | ||
| Capross Registered user Username: Capross Post Number: 45 Registered: 7-2012 |
It is amazing. I thought I was finally free of the conditioning I recieved as an SDA and yet when I read that quote by EGW the knot appears in my stomach. I will concentrate on what Jesus said in John 3:16-18 and What Paul says in Romans 8:1,2 | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 2834 Registered: 5-2007 |
Freeatlast, The problem with forgetting is not knowing what it is I have forgotten. At my age it can be a problem in many ways so be patient with me but thanks for reminding me what it is I use to know. This morning I picked up some soiled laundry and started out for the laundry room but ended up in the pantry and wondered why I was there. Went into the laundry room and saw that the clothes I washed two day ago hadn’t been dried. Then I saw the drier held the underwear I was looking for. Came back to the kitchen only to see our dog Hooch staring at the empty floor and realized his food dish was still on the counter with his breakfast in it. That put me near the coffee pot and remembered I needed my morning coffee but got sidetracked because I then noticed I haven’t taken last night pills. Maybe I’m fearless because I don’t remember what it is I’m supposed to be afraid of. Anyway, with Jesus in charge of my salvation what else is there to worry about. Spent lunch today with a bunch of guys my age and background except most of the others are retired navy and I was in the Marine Corps. Not only did we all have memory issues but none of us could hear to good so we were all yelling back and forth….having a great time. Fearless Phil | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2980 Registered: 7-2007 |
Actually I don't remember thinking about that particular passage much when I was an Adventist. Of course I would have been SURE that nobody's name was written in the book of life until they died or until Jesus came back. If I would have thought about it, I would have jumped over it quickly with the excuse that somewhere the church or Ellen White gave the "correct" meaning for this verse. I know I did that with other verses such as Philippians 1:21-24 and Colossians 2:16-17. Of course, now I can see lots of verses that refute SDA doctrine. When I was an Adventist, I wouldn't have believed any of those verses exactly - meaning I would have taken them figuratively or just assumed that Ellen White/church leadership had an explanation somewhere. | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2981 Registered: 7-2007 |
Yeah, seeing certain verses that SDAs use as "proof texts" still give me jolts until I realize they were taken out of context. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 8098 Registered: 9-2006 |
Oh shoot Phil...your just a young sprout. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 8099 Registered: 9-2006 |
I'm actually in good shape for the shape I'm in. Its the roadkill that I attribute my longevity too. (Message edited by river on February 28, 2013) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 14305 Registered: 12-2003  |
Phil, I am sitting here just laughing out loud! You are so funny! I have to say that a lot of your descriptions above remind me of times when I am particularly stressed. I can become so distracted that I forget why I went into another room. Sometimes I have to retrace my steps before I remember. OK, it doesn't happen a lot, but there are times when the adrenalin levels are pretty high, and my concentration is pretty low... And I still don't know for sure what Jesus meant by that sentence about Satan falling from heaven. In context is seems to relate to the fact that His disciples were commanding demons to come out of people, and perhaps it's related to His disarming Satan by His blood on the cross...a humiliation which was presaged by His disciples going out into the cities of Judea. And yet this seems like an incomplete explanation. Rev. 12 has war in heaven, and Satan and his angels being cast down to the earth. It seems, in context there, that that event is related to something during the tribulation. Perhaps this is another example of near future and far future fulfillments of something...? Colleen | ||
| Free2dance Registered user Username: Free2dance Post Number: 677 Registered: 2-2010 |
But what about the names being removed from the book of life. I do understand what Freeatlast is saying, and that is a great explanation, but does scripture help clarify that? | ||
| Lyrical Registered user Username: Lyrical Post Number: 158 Registered: 4-2012 |
Based on Scripture, we are born dead in our transgressions and deserve wrath UNTIL we are made alive in Christ. Ephesians 2:1-10 says, "As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were BY NATURE deserving of wrath. But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions - it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms with Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." There is no life in us until we are reborn and filled with the Holy Spirit. One of my very favorite texts, John 5:24, reads... "Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes in him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life." These words from Jesus indicate that we are all born dead and THEN cross over into life, AFTER believing. If the whole world started out with their names in the Book of Life, then we'd all be living in fear that perhaps we hadn't "believed well enough" to remain in the Book. This would kind of promote the, "Sorry, you're out..." mentality, rather than "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest" (Mt. 11:28). I used to believe that everyone was born "saved" and had to choose to be lost. But, based on the whole message of the Gospel and the teachings on the nature of man, I now see that the entire world is lost... we are born "dead" and there is no good in our hearts. Romans 3:10-12 says, "As it is written: 'There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.'" These don't sound like people who would be in the Book of Life - and that's all of us prior to conversion. There really wouldn't be a need to be transformed or become reborn as a new creation if our names were already in the Book of Life (see the story of Nicodemus in John 3). Christ invites us to the table of grace, and draws those who are His unto Himself. | ||
| Punababe808 Registered user Username: Punababe808 Post Number: 319 Registered: 4-2012 |
Since EGW obliviously never achieved a very high or outstanding personal character was she prophetizing her own personal eternal demise? Of course, this would be in the consumption of the lake of fire we all heard so much about. | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 2835 Registered: 5-2007 |
What I find interesting is that when a did an internet search on ‘Adventist commentary Luke 10:17-20’ all that comes up on Adventist sites are references to ‘Growing in Christ – Fundamental Belief 11’ where this passage is listed as one of the references. When I clicked on the ‘hot link’ for this link this passage it did not display all of verse twenty without clicking on the ‘more’ button. Nowhere that I searched had commentary on verse twenty, much less the phrase; “…but rather rejoice because your names are written in heaven”. So, back to the intent of my original question; what is the official Adventist interpretation of verse twenty? I couldn’t even find mention of it at the ‘Adventist Defense League’ website. Phil | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 883 Registered: 5-2002 |
Fearless Phil, if one considers Ellen White to be the official Adventist interpreter of the Scriptures, you can find their position on pages 489-494 of Desire of Ages. Does the SDA Bible Commentary have anything in Luke 10? I don't have a set of them (they remained with my Adventist ex-wife). | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2984 Registered: 7-2007 |
Free2dance; here's what the direct translation from the Greek into English in Revelation 3:5. (I'm using my interlinear Greek-English New Testament.) "The [one] overcoming thus shall be clothed in garments white and by no means will I blot out the name of him out of the scroll - of life, and I will confess the name of him before the Father of me and before the angels of him." Revelation 3:5 I just reread what you wrote Phil, and it was hilarious! | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2985 Registered: 7-2007 |
Our English understanding sometimes fails to get the nuances of a word translated from the Greek. "By no means" is more quickly translated into English by using the word "not" and they mean the same thing basically; but our English understanding of them is poles apart. "Not" in this verse implies to us that names written in the Book of Life can be removed. "Never" is perhaps a better word and the best "thought for thought" translation which I've heard is the ESV says: "The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels." Rev. 3:5 | ||
| Mjcmcook Registered user Username: Mjcmcook Post Number: 988 Registered: 2-2011  |
Phil~ The following is a link that might answer your question~ It is the Table of Contents for the book, Desire of Ages. Click on Chapter 53 http://www.ellenwhite.info/books/ellen-g-white-book-desire-of-ages-da-contents.htm ~mj~ | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 2836 Registered: 5-2007 |
The Desire of Ages isn’t a commentary and simply rambles on and on without actual searching of the meaning to be found by examining the Greek text the book of Luke was originally written in. The Matthew Henry’s Commentary, which is still a useful reference, was in common use well over a hundred years before the Seventh-day Adventist organization came into existence. Commentary on verse twenty:
Can any Adventist theologian, qualified to search the meaning of the original Greek text, purport to refute what Matthew Henry wrote in his commentary? Phil (Message edited by philharris on March 02, 2013) | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 8101 Registered: 9-2006 |
I wouldn't consider any Adventist a true theologian, and only qualified to induce confusion in the very people they purport to serve, and any explanation they come up with is bent toward keeping Adventists, Adventists. However, saving graces is to be rejoiced in above any or everything one can come up with in his wildest imagination; especially considering the alternative, which is to be cast out into outer darkness forever and ever. No power in this world can compare to one drop of unmerited grace. A realization in which so many Adventist have such trouble with. River | ||
| Punababe808 Registered user Username: Punababe808 Post Number: 321 Registered: 4-2012 |
Freeatlast, so that's how the proerty got devided up? Your place will hence forth be the least cluttered with unnecessary reading material. | ||
| Mjcmcook Registered user Username: Mjcmcook Post Number: 989 Registered: 2-2011 |
Phil~ I thought from reading your post and that of "Freeatlast" there was an interest in what "egw" had to say on the matter at hand! I have not been an adventist for 18 years, and have renounced adventism along with jettisoning "egw"! So this is why I offered the link in my post above! ~mj~ (Message edited by mjcmcook on March 02, 2013) | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2986 Registered: 7-2007 |
Phil; that's a good point - the fact that Jesus told His disciples to rejoice because their names are written in the Book of life. He wouldn't have told them that if the names remaining there depended on the disciples ongoing performance. And also the fact that Jesus said "he who hears My word and believes in Him Who sent Me has everlasting life and shall not come into judgment" John 5:24, shows that when a person gets saved, they stay saved! Free2dance; did you read what I wrote about the Greek words? |
