| Author | Message | ||
| Alison1 Registered user Username: Alison1 Post Number: 132 Registered: 10-2010 |
I have a question that I would like to put out on this forum. My question is if the Seventh day Adventist church claims that they are a bible-believing, Christ-centered church why do they continually teach the Sanctuary/Investigative Judgment? Are they so ignorant in the fact that Jesus Christ fulfilled the Day of Atonement reference; that He fulfilled all the feast days, as well as the Sabbath. Why do they keep returning to a covenant of works in trying to achieve grace? Don't they realize that works can never achieve what only the cross has provided and that by doing these things isn't going to make them more holy in the eyes of God. What(and why)seems to be their problem? What are they so afraid of? Why do they avoid the conclusion that Jesus completed the sacrifices, entry and purification that the book of Hebrews speaks of in past tense. Jesus Christ did in fact fulfill the Day of Atonement reference? Those of you who are more literate in the scriptures, I would appreciate your input as well. | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 2816 Registered: 5-2007  |
Well, if you believe the bible doesn't really mean what it seems to mean and therefore you need a special 'key' to unlock its secrets then you would know that you, a member of a speicial remanant church who has a last day prophet, can understand what the rest of us poor blind fools think we understand. | ||
| Alison1 Registered user Username: Alison1 Post Number: 133 Registered: 10-2010 |
Phil, plz put this into simple english. That is a pretty long sentence with no pauses. | ||
| Mjcmcook Registered user Username: Mjcmcook Post Number: 829 Registered: 2-2011  |
adventists believe what they do, because they are deceived~ IMO~ they choose to remain this way, because too many of them do not read their bible~ and when they do, too often it is read through the 'eyes' of their prophet, ellen g. white. Needless, to say, there are other reasons you can add to this list~ ~mj~ | ||
| Butterfly_poette Registered user Username: Butterfly_poette Post Number: 284 Registered: 5-2011  |
SDAs believe in the Sabbath because it is in the Ten Commandments. | ||
| Butterfly_poette Registered user Username: Butterfly_poette Post Number: 285 Registered: 5-2011 |
That's the thing: are the Ten Commandments something that matter so much? In 2 Corinthians it is called the "ministry that causes death". Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 2 Corinthians 3:7,8 | ||
| Mjcmcook Registered user Username: Mjcmcook Post Number: 830 Registered: 2-2011 |
Because of their dependence on ellen g. white in explaining the Bible, as an authoritative source,(placing her in the same category as the 'Apostles'), they are still living their lives under the 'Old Covenant'; especially as it pertains to the Ten Commandments, in Exodus. ~mj~ | ||
| Rain Registered user Username: Rain Post Number: 120 Registered: 9-2011  |
"Why do they continually teach the Sanctuary/Investigative Judgment?" I'm thinking because it would essentially be denominational suicide if they admitted, finally, that it is an unbiblical, heretical doctrine that has been kept alive through complete and utter deception on the part of those church leaders who know it has no biblical foundation but keep on teaching it anyway. If the Investigative Judgment is wrong, EGW is wrong. If EGW is wrong, SDAism crumbles. So the Investigative Judgment cannot be wrong. I like Phil's point. My dad is getting into this weird version of SDAism and he seems so very proud that, because of having EGW and the "truth," he can "decipher" the Bible and understand what all the rest of us poor "non-remnant" Christians cannot. | ||
| Mjcmcook Registered user Username: Mjcmcook Post Number: 831 Registered: 2-2011 |
Yes, Rain~ I agree with you about the "IJ"~ It is all so disheartening~ I remind myself, I was once such as they... I ask GOD for, 'Grace and more Grace', for those who are still bound up in this heresy~ I will pray for your Father~ and for You~ ~mj~ | ||
| Alison1 Registered user Username: Alison1 Post Number: 135 Registered: 10-2010 |
What I don't understand is that Desmond Ford wrote the book in showing that the Investigative Judgment is unbiblical and had his credentials removed from him and yet he still believes in some form of the seventh-day adventist church. What gives? Unless he has changed his stance on what he continues to believe in. What is the up-to-date report on Desmond Ford? | ||
| Lyrical Registered user Username: Lyrical Post Number: 116 Registered: 4-2012 |
Oh, Alison1... you expose the insanity of Adventism. There are no logical answers to your questions, other than making the obvious point that this is the result of 150+ years of deception. As for Des Ford... I, too, was completely dumbfounded when studying the IJ doctrine to find he still respected EGW and considered himself an SDA, even after his findings. As far as I know, that is still where he stands. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 14189 Registered: 12-2003  |
Exactly. The Adventist organization must endorse the IJ because, as Angel Rodriguez of the SDA Biblical Research Institute said in the late 90s, without it there is no reason for the Seventh-day Adventist "church" to exist. As for Des Ford...I find his situation to be really sad and disheartening. He KNEW the problems with the core of Adventism. He KNEW. But he was never willing to embrace the implications of that reality. He was never willing to leave the organization that depended upon a heretical lie that blasphemes the Lord Jesus. He made the lie public...but he loved the organization and his derived identity too much to really act on what he knew. Yes, he was "de-frocked" and lost his ministerial credentials. But he STILL accepted EGW as someone essentially good and used by God. By not leaving Adventism, which would have been the logical conclusion of his research and his understanding of Jesus' atonement, he has ended up causing further confusion. Yes, God used him in the early 80s. Because of Des Ford, Adventists everywhere had to LOOK right at the IJ and decide what to believe. But Ford never let go of the trappings that supported the IJ: the Sabbath, etc. He continued to hold a very Adventist worldview in most respects. And that blending of gospel truth with established heresy just made a new brand of deception. This doesn't mean that Ford's research is nullified. His research opened the way for a great many people to discover the truth about Jesus' atonement. It was HUGE in Dale Ratzlaff's life when he was still teaching at Monterey Bay Academy. But Ford has been an illustration to me of someone who has not fully embraced the implications of knowing the Adventist organization has knowingly lied. As long as we endorse a lie by staying loyal even though we "reject" the actual lie itself, we become complicit in the lie. I am not saying Des Ford isn't saved. I suspect he actually is. But I do suspect that he has never truly lived the life of freedom and power for the sake of the gospel that he would have lived if he had not held so hard to his love for Adventism. You can't reject the core of an organization and stay loyal to it without compromising your own life and your own life's work. Des makes me feel sad. It's just sad to me that his profoundly acute mind and his detailed research did not propel him into making clear statements about the contrast between Adventism and Christianity. Colleen | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 14190 Registered: 12-2003 |
I need to add, however, that Ford did officially leave the Adventist church a handful of years ago. He had applied for a position at a Baptist seminary (I believe in Australia), and he did have to leave Adventism to be considered for that position. He did not get the position, but I believe he is no longer officially an Adventist. When I checked on this data about three or four years ago, I tried to ascertain if he was still Sabbatarian. I could not get anyone at Good News Unlimited to give me a direct answer about that...the implication was that he still is a Sabbatarian even though he accepts invitations to preach at various "Sunday churches". Colleen | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 2818 Registered: 5-2007 |
Ok, here is Post #2816 rewritten. This time I remembered to put in some form of punctuation where I remembered to breath: If you believe the bible doesn't really mean what it seems to mean, and… If you believe you need a special 'key' to unlock its secrets, and…. You are persuaded to join a ‘remnant church’ who has ‘a last day prophet’ who has this key that unlocks the bibles ‘secrets', then… You will believe that all other others are poor blind fools without that ‘truth’. PS Our 'key' for unlocking the meaning of Scripture is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Phil (Message edited by philharris on January 11, 2013) | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2920 Registered: 7-2007 |
The average Adventist accepts their leadership's and Ellen White's authority without question. They believe that because EGW had a "vision" saying that Jesus waited until 1844 to go into the Most Holy Place in Heaven and then started the "investigative judgement," that it must be true. I believe that most of them are the way I was, totally ignorant on what the Bible says on the subject. If they, for example, knew that: 1. Jesus sat down at the right hand of the Father when He went to Heaven. Adventists don't seem to realize that there's no place holier than where God is and since Jesus "sat down at the right hand of God," when He went to Heaven, then obviously He went into the Most Holy Place. (Senior SDA pastor Dwight Nelson tried to tell me that God the Father has wheels on His chair and that He wheels in and out of the Most Holy Place. He didn't seem to realize that God wouldn't leave the Most Holy Place, but that the Most Holy Place would be wherever God is!) "But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God" - Hebrews 10:12. 2. Here's a verse that says right out that Jesus went into the Most Holy Place in Heaven upon His ascension, but Adventists miss it because they aren't looking for it and if they happen to notice it, they usually shove the "cognitive dissonance" it causes to the back of their minds. "We have this as a sure and steadfast anchor of the soul, a hope that enters into the inner place behind the curtain, where Jesus has gone as a forerunner on our behalf, having become a high priest forever after the order of Melchizedek." Hebrews 6:19-20 This is describing how the high priest that went into the Most Holy Place once a year on the Day of Atonement is now Jesus Who enters for us. 3. Here's a verse that shows how Jesus offered up His own blood on the anti-typical Day of Atonement in the Most Holy Place... "Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own" Hebrews 9:25 The people in cults all trust their leaders. I suspect that at the highest levels the cult leaders know that what they're teaching is a lie but they makes excuses such as: "but it would cause the whole religion to crash and all the investsments we've put in and..." "it would break so many good people's hearts to know that the religion they've believed in so long is a lie!" "I would lose my paycheck!" | ||
| Mjcmcook Registered user Username: Mjcmcook Post Number: 839 Registered: 2-2011 |
"I would lose my paycheck!".... The "Old Bottom Line $$$$$," will get you every time! I just couldn't help chiming in with the above~ ~mj~ | ||
| Punababe808 Registered user Username: Punababe808 Post Number: 274 Registered: 4-2012 |
A few years ago Adventist World Magazine had and article about a lady who converted to SDA. She was an accountant and therefore good with math. The IJ just fell into place for her and the SDA 's had a new convert. | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2924 Registered: 7-2007 |
If you google the Levitt newsletter (Zola Levitt ministries) for September 2012, about two-thirds of the way down on page 25, there's a good explanation of the 2300 day prophecy! When you read it, you'll see how the feast of Hanukkah is celebrated as a result of the cleansing of the temple! | ||
| Mjcmcook Registered user Username: Mjcmcook Post Number: 842 Registered: 2-2011 |
Asurprise~ I have been receiving the 'Levitt Newsletter' in my e-mail for several years! I always look forward to reading it! Looks like that makes two of us here on the 'Forum' ! ~mj~ | ||
| Alison1 Registered user Username: Alison1 Post Number: 139 Registered: 10-2010 |
Hey, I get the newsletter, too. And so enjoy it and find it very enlightening. I had read the explanation of the 2300 day prophecy and prayed to God by saying " Boy,the seventh-day adventists really have that one wrong, big time. And that issue of the 2300 day prophecy was cleared up real fast for me. And I was finally able to let that doctrine go. Helped me to see that it had absolutely nothing to do with the Investigative Judgment/ Sanctuary teaching but with the Maccabean era. I thank the Levitt Newsletter for clearing that one up quickly for me. | ||
| Mjcmcook Registered user Username: Mjcmcook Post Number: 845 Registered: 2-2011 |
Now, there are "3" (^_^) ~ (^_^) ~ (^_^) !!! ~mj~ | ||
| Nowisee Registered user Username: Nowisee Post Number: 1224 Registered: 5-2009 |
Rain, you are 100% right! When Ellen was alive, and a SDA minister actually read the book of Hebrews, (seeing that it contradicted her visions) & sought answers from her & the church...what happened? They were denounced harshly by Ellen & Co. & fired. Albion Fox Ballenger is one example. This is the pattern of the church in dealing with people who see that the IJ is as unBiblical as it can be. It started with using the IJ to justify their date-setting & became a real point of pride. Boy, I wish I'd been there the day after when they had to face those Christians whom they had chastised when those Christians had pointed out what the Bible says against date-setting! They cannot admit it is unBiblical or they lose their status & their prophet/profit. SDAs who might see the falseness of the IJ are scared to death to leave because just where would they go? They've been brainwashed from birth that worshipping with "Sunday Christians" would lead them right down the path to the MOTB. Ellen has warned them over & over that Sabbath/Sunday is the dividing line between those who go to heaven & those who don't. They are trapped! Fortunately, God is stronger than the fear & can pull them out---we all have to pray continually for them. It's a miracle of God's grace that any of us got out...and I know that God is calling more people who will see the truth & leave, but we really have to remember to pray for them. It's a very convoluted & clever deception & false gospel, but God is able. | ||
| Lyrical Registered user Username: Lyrical Post Number: 120 Registered: 4-2012 |
Nowisee, Thank you for your reminder for us all to pray for them. It is ONLY through the power of God that any SDA can see real truth. I know that was true for me. There was NOTHING any human could say that would've convinced me that the Sabbath doctrine was wrong. And, I said that out loud many, many times! I can so relate to what you said about being trapped. It was a horrible feeling! When my husband and I finally realized how negatively the SDA church was affecting us (and could identify dozens of things that were wrong), we always came back to the Sabbath/Sunday issue and really believed we had nowhere to go. Never mind that our conclusions basically came down to the fact that the God who was revealing Himself to us was NOT the God we saw in the SDA church. Never mind that I said over and over... "These people are not acting like Christians." It still came down to the Sabbath. Every. Single. Time. I compromised EVERYTHING and rationalized/justified all my decisions based on the Sabbath, even when I could clearly see these Sabbath-keepers were not showing Christian love, attitudes, or behaviors. Now, THAT is brainwashing! I ceased to be able to think for myself and could only revert to automatic, fear-based teaching that had convinced me that the Sabbath/Sunday issue was the bottom line. After all who wants to lose their salvation?! Because of this, I (and all SDAs) allowed myself to be spiritually abused. I was rejected and mistreated by most people I knew and stayed "in the system" because of Sabbath. I am overwhelmed by the actual love and kindness I experience at the new church we're attending. I actually didn't believe Christians could be so nice. That's just pathetic... It is a Divine miracle of epic proportions when an SDA sees the truth. Pray! | ||
| Alison1 Registered user Username: Alison1 Post Number: 145 Registered: 10-2010 |
"Ellen has warned them over & over that Sabbath/Sunday is the dividing line between those who go to heaven & those who don't." My thought about this is, basically she's right but what she doesn't realize is that she's on the wrong side. Like I said in a different post. Faith + works=no salvation. I know that is sad to say but it is true according to the Bible. By faith in Jesus Christ and accepting him when He says who He is, is the only way we are saved. Works alone, we are not saved. But if you add works to faith it cancels out the faith and the belief part in Jesus Christ all together. And yes, it is epic proportions when an SDA (or any other Sabbath-keeping church)sees the truth. But my next question is what about those who sincerely believe in their hearts that they feel that they need to be doing these things. (Sabbath-keeping, clean/unclean meats, feast-keeping,etc.) Does GOD excuse them and accept them into the kingdom? Or is the Bible very clear in what is says that Faith in Jesus is the Christ + works does not equal being saved. What about the scripture that says that we should not judge each other according to what we eat or drink or what Sabbaths? When does that come into play? And what about the Messianic Jews? Exactly where do we draw the line? I know in my heart that the Scriptures are very clear in what we are to believe and accept. But at the same time I do not want to pass judgment on others who's hearts are right with the Lord. This is not my place to do so. This is God's and Jesus Christ's role in doing this. What maybe right for us in coming out of SDA or any other works-based churches maybe not right for someone else. The only exception I have are those who are blatantly just down right cults period. Feedback, please | ||
| Alison1 Registered user Username: Alison1 Post Number: 146 Registered: 10-2010 |
I found the Scripture that I was looking for: Colossians 2:16,17. Also take a look at the following site: http://www.carm.org/newsletter-01-16-13 and tell me what you think. Should the Roman Catholic Church be classified as a cult as well? | ||
| Mjcmcook Registered user Username: Mjcmcook Post Number: 857 Registered: 2-2011 |
Alison1~ Just my 2cents~ Galatians 3:10 'NKJV' states the following: "For as many as are of the works of the law are under a curse: For it is written, cursed (is) everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them." (It is also helpful to continue reading verses:11,12 and 13.) Actually, neither you, or anyone else, is "judging" another person, in the context you wrote in your post~ Scripture is stating this~ The judgment we leave to GOD, regarding individuals. It is HIS, and HIS, alone. However, I do believe it is our responsibility as Christians, to point out the errors in doctrine that carry an eternal consequence. In view of this~ Anything that is added to Grace is works~ so don't you think this means the Catholic Church, as well? ~mj~ | ||
| Alison1 Registered user Username: Alison1 Post Number: 147 Registered: 10-2010 |
Yes, I do. |
