| Author | Message | ||
| Dalvarenga Registered user Username: Dalvarenga Post Number: 85 Registered: 3-2012  |
On Hebrews 8:8-13 we read: "“The days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah. 9 It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not remain faithful to my covenant, and I turned away from them, declares the Lord. 10 This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. 11 No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest. 12 For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.”[c] 13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear." I'd like to talk about 2 very interesting points on this text: 1. "No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest." Is this already fulfilled? It seems to me that this is only going to be fulfilled when we finally experience the glorification. If this was already fulfilled today, there would be no need for Bible teachers. 2. "...and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear" Paul doesn't say that the first covenant (old) disappeared already, instead he says "will soon disappear", which implies that it is still valid somehow. At the same time, on Galatians 4:21-31 Paul gives the analogy of Hagar and Sarah when comparing both the old and the new covenants. So, it seems that one could look at those texts and say that we are in a transitional period between the two covenants. I'd love to see your comments on this. | ||
| Jonasaras Registered user Username: Jonasaras Post Number: 8 Registered: 9-2012 |
The Old Covenant disappeared in AD 70 with the Fall of Jerusalem. In the Historic Postmillenial view of eschatology the major theme of the book of Revelation is God divorcing himself from "old" Jerusalem (euphemistically called "Babylon") and getting married to his new bride, the New Testament church (euphemistically called "new" Jerusalem). The reference to no longer having to teach our neighbor indicates that during the age of the New Testament church , which is symbolically refered to as the thousand years, the Gospel will spread to the point where opposition to it will be an insignficant minority. THEN, the end (the goal) will come. Read 1 Cor 15:23-25...then read it "backwards" and you'll see the chronological sequence. 1. Jesus must reign until He puts all His enemies under His feet. His reign began at the Resurrection (Acts 2:30-31). 2. He abolishes all rule and all authority and power (there is no opposition left). 3. THEN comes the end when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 14160 Registered: 12-2003  |
Prophecy usually has "telescoping" fulfillments. Hebrews 8, for example, is quoting Jeremiah 31 where God first gave this promise of the new covenant to Israel. When the Israelites in exile in Babylon heard Jeremiah's prophecy, they understood that God was promising them a future and a new covenant. They rightly understood that God was promising to them every detail of the words Jeremiah wrote to them. As God's people in exile, these words must have been greatly reassuring—God had not forsaken them, and His promises to them would still be fulfilled. Not only that, but He was giving more specific details about His intentions for them. Ephesians and Colossians specifically address the fact that ushering in Gentiles to the new covenant was a mystery that had not been revealed before the cross. Ephesians 2 and 3 address this fact as does Colossians which refers several times to the "mystery", Christ in the gentiles. When Jeremiah first wrote his words to exiled Judah, they had no idea that God had a plan that included ushering the gentile nations into His promises. Romans 9 through 11 explain that God's promises to Israel are not null. He will still keep His promises to Israel after the full number of gentiles has come in (Rom. 11). If wild branches (us gentiles) can be grafted into God's olive tree, He can also re-graft the cut-off natural branches back into the tree if they do not persist in unbelief. The declaration that no one will teach their neighbor because they will all know him is part of the prophecy that has "telescoping" fulfillments. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit in all believers which began at Pentecost is the beginning of the fulfillment of this prophecy. The original exiled Jews would have had no conception of this mystery which Jesus' resurrection and ascension made possible. We can now know Him intimately, even though we still struggle with mortal flesh. And the New Testament is specific that God has given the church the gifts and offices of teaching, preaching, and evangelism (Eph. 4:1-12). So, even though we do not see the complete fulfillment of this prophecy yet, we do see a great step in its fulfillment. We have to remember also that the prophecy was given specifically to the Jews, and in general, the church is gentile although Jews can come to faith and be part of the church as well. Nevertheless, this prophecy was clearly given to Jews, and we recognize that we still don't see its complete fulfillment. I believe this prophecy will find a more complete fulfillment in the millennial kingdom when Christ reigns over the nations as described in Revelation 20. Ultimately, it will reach its final fulfillment in the new earth. We are not in a transitional period between the covenants. The new covenant came into existence after Jesus rose, ascended, and sent the Holy Spirit. 2 Corinthians 3 explains the new covenant right now as the more glorious covenant of the Spirit that has fulfilled and replaced the covenant of Moses based on the Law. Jesus said that He was the fulfillment of the law, and when we know Him, we have the Living Law--the actual Law-Giver indwelling us, and we are also in Him. The New Covenant is the covenant of the Holy Spirit instead of the covenant of the Law. Acts 15 explains that the law has no authority over believers, and when gentiles who never had the law come to faith, they have no obligation to keep any of the law. They are filled with the Holy Spirit when they believe in the Lord Jesus, and the law is obsolete for them. God allowed the last vestiges of official Judaism and its requisite temple worship to be destroyed in AD 70, as Jonas said, when Jerusalem was destroyed and the Jews were dispersed in an exile that destroyed their national identity for nearly 2,000 years. Even today there is no temple in Israel. Not only did God allow the temple to be destroyed, but He allowed the nations to create a completely gentile culture. No longer does anyone use a lunar calendar as an official way of marking time. It was the lunar calendar that Israel used from Sinai onward to establish the New Moons and the weekly Sabbaths. Without a lunar calendar, no one can keep the festivals God set up in Exodus and Leviticus. It was the New Moon that determined those Sabbaths. We can say, I believe, that we are in a different "age" than Israel was in, and we are in a different age than the millennium and the new earth will be. We are firmly inside the new covenant, however. The New Testament doesn't leave us any other understanding. At the same time, some of God's prophecies will still have future fulfillments. Just as the prophecies of the "Day of the Lord" in the OT had partial fulfillment in the first advent of Jesus and will yet have future fulfillments at His return, so the complete fulfillment of His covenant promises will become fuller and deeper as the future unfolds. Colleen | ||
| Capross Registered user Username: Capross Post Number: 39 Registered: 7-2012 |
In Luke 22:20 Jesus says "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you." He said this as he was passing the cup at the last supper. According to this the new covenant began on Calvary. | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2909 Registered: 7-2007 |
Dalvarenga; Hebrews 8:8-13 quotes Jeremiah 31:31-34. Notice it says that this new covenant [that Jesus brought in by His death - Hebrews 9:15-17 - which we are living in now] is NOT like the old one that God gave to Isreal - Jeremiah 31:32 - which was the one that He gave at Sinai - Deuteronomy 4:13. | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2910 Registered: 7-2007 |
Also, since the New Covenant that we're living in now is "not like" the Old Covenant, they couldn't both be in force. It would have to be one or the other. It would have to be Jesus' last will and Testament - the New Covenant. "Therefore He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant. For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established. For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive." Hebrews 9:15-17 | ||
| Pnoga Registered user Username: Pnoga Post Number: 506 Registered: 1-2007 |
Dalvarenga, Here is what I understand to be the fullfillment of Knowing God and how it is 100% fullfilled in Jesus John 14:5-11;12-18 (HCSB) 5 “Lord,” Thomas said, “we don’t know where You’re going. How can we know the way?” 6 Jesus told him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. Jesus Reveals the Father 7 “If you know Me, you will also know[d] My Father. From now on you do know Him and have seen Him.” 8 “Lord,” said Philip, “show us the Father, and that’s enough for us.” 9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been among you all this time without your knowing Me, Philip? The one who has seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The words I speak to you I do not speak on My own. The Father who lives in Me does His works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me. Otherwise, believe[e] because of the works themselves. 12 “I assure you: The one who believes in Me will also do the works that I do. And he will do even greater works than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 Whatever you ask in My name, I will do it so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask Me[f] anything in My name, I will do it.[g] Another Counselor Promised 15 “If you love Me, you will keep[h] My commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Counselor to be with you forever. 17 He is the Spirit of truth. The world is unable to receive Him because it doesn’t see Him or know Him. But you do know Him, because He remains with you and will be[i] in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I am coming to you. Hope that helps, Paul | ||
| Pnoga Registered user Username: Pnoga Post Number: 507 Registered: 1-2007 |
Here's another - 1 John 4:7-21 Knowing God through Love 7 Dear friends, let us love one another, because love is from God, and everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 The one who does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9 God’s love was revealed among us in this way:[c] God sent His One and Only Son into the world so that we might live through Him. 10 Love consists in this: not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the[d] propitiation for our sins. 11 Dear friends, if God loved us in this way, we also must love one another. 12 No one has ever seen God.[e] If we love one another, God remains in[f] us and His love is perfected in us. 13 This is how we know that we remain in Him and He in us: He has given assurance to us from His Spirit. 14 And we have seen and we testify that the Father has sent His Son as the world’s Savior. 15 Whoever confesses[g] that Jesus is the Son of God—God remains in him and he in God. 16 And we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and the one who remains in love remains in God, and God remains in him. 17 In this, love is perfected with us so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment, for we are as He is in this world. 18 There is no fear in love; instead, perfect love drives out fear, because fear involves punishment.[h] So the one who fears has not reached perfection in love. 19 We love[i] because He first loved us. Keeping God’s Commands 20 If anyone says, “I love God,” yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For the person who does not love his brother he has seen cannot love the God he has not seen.[j] 21 And we have this command from Him: The one who loves God must also love his brother. Knowing Jesus is knowing God and his love for us. Jesus and his work is God's law in our hearts ministered through the Holy Spirit. Paul |
