| Author | Message | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 13980 Registered: 12-2003  |
I've been thinking a lot lately about the theological confusion that seems to color so much of the former Adventist community, especially in many of the online groups and forums. It's amazing and wonderful when Adventists hear the gospel and receive Jesus. There's just no miracle more amazing and impacting! I'm hugely concerned, increasingly so, about the "drift" I see among so many who are moving toward a quasi-universalism or toward a sort-of emergent or spiritual formation emphasis. On the other hand, among some there is a profound swing toward something close to hyper-Calvinism that ends up sounding like salvation can be "formulated" and there's no real hope because God has already predestined who will be lost. I'm just so "bummed" when I see people camping on something that sounds logical instead of taking every word of Scripture seriously. If we really take Scripture seriously, we'll have to embrace what it says about election and predestination. We'll also have to embrace what it says about the work of God being to "believe in the One whom He sent" (Jn. 6:29). If we really take Scripture seriously, we'll have to admit we can't explain HOW God works, but He has told us all we need to know in order to be saved. We have to embrace things that we must hold in tension...because we are creatures, and He is God. One of the phenomena that really troubles me is the insistence that we should expect God to gift us with the capacity for miracles and "sign gifts". The desire for "something more" ultimately takes our eyes off Jesus. The Lord Jesus will definitely give all believers at least one spiritual gift, and He empowers us and equips us for what He puts in front of us in an ongoing way throughout our lives. But the minute we try to get direct revelation from Him instead of submitting to His word and asking Him to reveal Himself and His will to us, we set ourselves up for exactly what we left: extra-bibical revelation. Someone sent me a portion of a sermon by Charles Spurgeon today; I'm going to share a great quote from it:
I have begun to pray that God would guide the growing numbers of "formers" to become grounded in Scripture and to become engaged in healthy churches where they will be taught Scripture and where they will be able to experience living in the body of Christ as the Lord Jesus our Head has intended. We can't be lone-rangers as members of Christ's body, and we are weak and powerless if we are not committed to submitting our minds to His word. OK--I'm off my soapbox, but I'd love to hear others weigh in on this subject. Colleen | ||
| Free2dance Registered user Username: Free2dance Post Number: 581 Registered: 2-2010 |
Colleen, thank you for speaking so openly about this! It has been heavy on my heart as well but hard to know how to approach. Not long after leaving Adventism, I felt an enormous freedom to finally be a part of the church rather than quarantined off to the special group with the "right" truth. My husband and I began watching Christian TV and pretty much felt safe doing so as long as we weren't watching Mormons, Adventists, or any other cult. It would be a few months before we came to learn that even outside of the cult groups, there are false teachers, and professing Christians who hold fast and push hard false teachings using scripture. I do not live as though I am quarantined to a special group, but I better understand that the road truly is narrow! Just, not as narrow as the SDA's taught. ;) We began to take special interest in one program that aired every Saturday night. The preacher was on fire. The audience was mostly made up of youth. The worship team would work up into a sweat and sway style of worship where they spoke tongues and sometimes rocked back and forth. The kids in the audience would sometimes just sob and rock on the floor. It was so new to see people allow themselves to step out side of acceptable conduct in their worship. It was only a matter of time before we realized that it wasn't that they were stepping out of acceptable conduct, they were actually engaging in expected conduct by the teachers up front. I am not saying it was all insincere but as we listened to this preachers sermons we began to really stress out about the idea that perhaps we were once again in the "wrong" church. This pastor spoke about how stale the church is. That millions of people go to church and sip coffee and eat doughnuts (two features we loved about our new church ;) ) and yet they were not obeying God. The preacher talked about healing prayers and told stories of people walking out of wheel chairs they'd been in forever. He also preached the word, but he used it to show his listeners that we MUST do the same miraculous signs and wonders of scripture or we are not true Christians. I was so worried! The Bible said to have faith, to abide in God's word and be sanctified by the work of the Holy Spirit. The Bible I read in my living room seemed simple. The sermons this man preached however made me fear that I had been suckered into another apostatizing church. The longer we fellowshipped at our church and sat under sound teaching and learned how to rightly divide scripture the more obvious this televangelist's false teachings were. But I am not sure we would have ever figured it out on our own had we not sat under that leadership. God taught us to trust where He brought us, who He gave us, and the gifts He imparted to the body for our building up and growing in truth. I am not a cessationist in the sense that the sign gifts never happen anymore. But I will not pretend to know that I understand them. I have found peace with the passage of scripture that says that they are assigned by the will of the Spirit and will leave it there. Scripture is no more directive about tongues being a prerequisite of true faith than it is about Sabbath-keeping being a requirement for the believer. Context is SO important and had I not been taught what that means, I would probably still be working my way to holiness by seeking after confirmation from God that I am His (which one could say is not faith, but still that "cross your fingers" kind of hope I had as an Adventist). RE: Healing prayers. The Bible says to call together the leaders, let them anoint you, confess your sins and pray for healing. It does not say pray for hours and pour over your heart aches so that you can figure yourself out and ask God to heal you. One of my favorite things God does in my life is heal those parts of me that I didn't realize were broken! Or when I have waited on Him and let Him smooth out my rough edges only to finally arrive at that moment where He reveals to me in His time why I have been in waiting and what He had been up to. God's ways are better than my demanding, begging, holiness disciplines, and desert wondering impatience!! If God wants to heal me in a miraculous way then He will certainly get the glory! If He wants to make me wait on Him and learn that He is glorified in my weakness, then certainly He will get the glory then too. But I will no longer let the current culture sweeping Christendom pull me into more formulations to get me closer to God or closer to my miracle. It took a long time to get here. These teachings, like Adventism, have scripture behind them. They, like Adventism, are insidious. It is a slow fade from the faith that rests, to the worry that works! I have to believe that my faith is being perfected by the author of my faith. I have to believe that when He tells me in scripture that His Spirit is interceding for me in the places I don't even know how to access or articulate, that He is faithful! His grace is sufficient. I have to add, that I have been terribly concerned by some of the posts I have seen on FB that claim to be a revelation from the Lord and CLEARLY unermind scripture. Scripture is the test of all things. I am not going back to new revelation trumping or reinterpreting scripture for the current times! Jeremiah 17:9 says, "The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure." I cannot trust that truth is in my head. Truth is in God's word. And when God speaks, to say that He is speaking in ways that are not in line with His word is to call Him a liar and defames His character. Sorry for the rant. I guess, I just agree. I worry. And I have been through the pull to head in that direction and it has only been through obeying scripture and trusting teachers with sound doctrine (a STRONG focus on the gospel and teaching that keeps Jesus central)that I have even begun to see that in fact, scripture is a trustworthy anchor and the thing that all things must be tested against. My 2 cents, FWIW. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 13981 Registered: 12-2003 |
I want to say here that I do not believe believers should divide over signs and tongues. It is not manifestations nor lack of them that make a true believer; rather, it is being baptized by the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ and sealed with the Holy Spirit who baptized and indwells us. My point, and the thing with which I agree with Free above, is that so many former Adventists become caught up by spiritual disciplines, holiness pursuits, signs and wonders, or formulas reducing salvation to a rigid cause-and-effect sequence that leaves out the mysterious ways of God in the hearts of men. We just have such an obligation to submit ourselves to Scripture and to allowing God to change us as He promised. His blessings to us are for our good and His glory, not for our good, period. Sometimes His blessings look at first like losses...for example, the family that many of us lose when we follow Him is a terrible loss. But the family He gives us in Himself is true and deep and real...and if we keep expecting that He will give us what we think we need—our natural families' approval and acceptance, we will miss His provision for us. Jesus is enough, and His word is what changes us! Colleen | ||
| Starlabs Registered user Username: Starlabs Post Number: 221 Registered: 5-2011 |
You echo my thoughts exactly about formers being sucked into emergent, word of faith, mystisim, spiritual formation, etc. movements. I think many, sadly, listen to popular pastors/teachers without being grounded in the Word first. So many ideas they can hear sound plausible without realizing that it is false. What has helped me besides being grounded in the Bible is to listen to Christian apologetics. They take what these pastors/teachers are saying and compare it to the Word of God. You then see how they have twisted, sometimes subtly the Scriptures to fit a theology that is false. I listen to the podcasts of Carm.org as one example. In fact, right not on their FB page they having been talking about Joyce Meyers as one example of a false teacher. The problem is that if you actually question formers on their beloved pastors/ teachers they will say you shouldn't be judging. I think that's wrong as we should judge the teaching, but not the teacher. We should use proper discernment of what we hear. Pastors/teachers have to rightly divided the Word. We have to contend for the faith and point out false theology when we see it, just as we point out the false theology of SDA. One of the things that I've heard that has bothered me the most is the marginalizing of Scriptures. I've heard it said that now that they are filled with the Holy Spirit, that He will teach them. It's as though they no longer need the Word. That's scary to me. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 13983 Registered: 12-2003 |
Starlabs, I agree. I hear that as well: they listen to the Holy Spirit revealing where they are to go and what they are to do, etc etc. Of course we learn to know Jesus' voice, but it is as we submit to His word that we begin to understand what is real. We didn't know what was real as Adventists. Our entire sense of existence was shaped by the great controversy paradigm! Scripture shows us what is real, and the Holy Spirit uses His own word to direct and shape and teach us. I know, it sounds vague...but people who marginalize Scripture can't expect to have the riches of their inheritance in Christ Jesus. Colleen | ||
| Free2dance Registered user Username: Free2dance Post Number: 582 Registered: 2-2010 |
"I know, it sounds vague...but people who marginalize Scripture can't expect to have the riches of their inheritance in Christ." That is a very profound point. It's heavy, and it's sad...but I do agree. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 8018 Registered: 9-2006  |
Without being grounded in the word first, a person is subject to falling into all kinds of things. I think the largest hindrance for formers is the tenancy to come at it from what seems their own logical viewpoint. The next hindrance is failure to fully realize that when we are born again we become spiritual creatures which is a requirement to communicate with God or have him communicate with us. The greatest reality of this is Jesus profound statement contained in these words in John 4:23-24. So how do we know when our spirits have communicated with him and not some other entity, that entity or entities which includes our own minds? By the word of course, God will never say something to us that does not line up with his word. When we try to reduce it too a formula, what we are really doing is reducing it back to the flesh and we again miss the mark. So here again, we have to be grounded in the word to properly judge what is being taught by others. I suppose, to put it into words, what I mean by being grounded in the word is to 'eat of it' (or) having allowed God to implant his word deep into our spirit. The whole meal is the whole Bible. I suppose Colleen, that you are talking about the many hindrances that formers get caught up in that hinders them from having the victorious life in Christ God had intended for his children. To give an example. You see a child riding his tricycle in and out of parked cars on the street. Even if he is not your child, you become alarmed because, as an adult, you see the danger and every fiber of your being wants that child to return to the ‘safe zone’. The Bible is our ‘safe zone’. So a person says, "Well...I am going to take the cessation road and be safe, but you're still not safe because the Bible does not teach or indicate that by any shape or form and you again miss the mark by reducing the word to flesh again. The Holy Spirit uses many methods to shape us and teach us, but none of it is outside the scope of his word to us. River | ||
| Capross Registered user Username: Capross Post Number: 19 Registered: 7-2012 |
Colleen - Thanks for starting this post. As an SDA who believed in studying the scripture I always wondered why it was so difficult to find other SDAs to study with. Yet it is through the power of the Holy spirit and in the study of scripture that I was led out. It is absolutley true. If you want to fellowship with God and He with you there is no shortcut. You need to spend time in the scripture( all of it) while asking the Holy Spirit to give you understanding. The process is not immediate it happens over time. I can remember reading from Pauls epistles and getting to the end of a chapter just to realize I did not know what I had just read. Over time though bit by bit God gave me some understanding so that I could know who He really is. My friends the process is worth it. Stick with the struggle spend the time the rewards are huge. | ||
| Free2dance Registered user Username: Free2dance Post Number: 583 Registered: 2-2010 |
For those of you who are concerned, this DVD might be worth having in your library to share with others. There are 4 short sample clips at the bottom of the page. It's quite heart breaking... http://www.lighthousetrails.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=LTP&Product_Code=SMC&Category_Code=NR | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 8021 Registered: 9-2006 |
Looked at the video samples,there is so much crap out there you gotta wear hip waders and carry a snow scoop. | ||
| Jonasaras Registered user Username: Jonasaras Post Number: 7 Registered: 9-2012 |
Hi Colleen, As Spurgeon was a life-long commited Calvinist, I find your post to be a bit ironic. I have some Calvinistic leanings and I've found that Reform theologians take Scripture extremely seriously, even if I don't agree with all their conclusions. Shalom, J | ||
| Punababe808 Registered user Username: Punababe808 Post Number: 169 Registered: 4-2012 |
Capross, Its interesting you mentioned SDA's are few and far between for bible studies. Just like the JW's call it a bible study and then use only their Watchtower, SDA's call it a bible study and will use only their own preformatted studies approved by the General Conference. Mt mother thought of herself as an independent thinker because she would.do bible studies put out by non-SDA's. Having said that, she would not do studies by non-Sabbathkeepers so that limited her exposure greatly and even though she really liked attendung Seventh Day Baptist services she wouldnt partisapate in the SDB studies because they ate pork. So, the SDB's were more right than Sundaykeepers but less right than the SDA's because of pork. Oh, and the state of our dearly departed. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1954 Registered: 7-2004  |
I tried, but I just can't sit on the sidelines for this one. I'm not a cessationist, but I don't agree with the typical charismatic teaching that tongues is a sign gift given to all believers who are baptized in the Spirit (or filled up with the Spirit). I believe that 1 Cor 12-14 clearly teaches that God gives the gifts He chooses to His children and that He chooses to give different gifts to different children and we should all trust that He knows best what gifts to give us. These gifts never replace, alter, or add to the Word of God. Those who believe that they do neither accept the Word of God nor have the true guidance of the Holy Spirit. God chooses the gift, not us. Those who engage in the pursuit of the gifts they want, or who expect that if they DO certain things then God will respond in a special way with His Spirit are practicing a form of divination where they expect their actions to control God. We can't be open to following God and surrendering to God if we are also trying to control Him. Those two are in opposition to each other. Plenty of people are seeking God's Spirit in what they do, Labyrinths, special "Walks", formulatic prayers, even spiritual disciplines. Gal 3:2 shows clearly where the Spirit comes from, it is a gift we receive by faith "Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?". Spiritual gifts are just that, GIFTS. Like the gift of salvation, if we do something in order to attain it, it is no longer a gift but a wage. Trust God. He has good Spiritual gifts in mind for you (that is what the gifts of Luke 11:5-13 are all about, Spiritual gifts, not physical items!) Trust that the gifts He has chosen for you are safe, there is no reason to fear His gifts. | ||
| Mjcmcook Registered user Username: Mjcmcook Post Number: 641 Registered: 2-2011  |
Ric-b I agree, that GOD chooses the "Gift"~ it is chosen for each one of us personally~ In my reading of Scripture we may have more than one gift~ Whatever we are given, it is to be used for the Glory of GOD! ~mj~ | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 8024 Registered: 9-2006 |
As colleen said I don't think believers should be divided over gifts. One thing I have learned is that I don't have to attend every argument I am invited too.  River | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1956 Registered: 7-2004 |
I agree that it shouldn't be a divisive point. I wasn't inviting you to an argument, River. I would think that you would have agreed with 6 of the 7 paragraphs that I wrote. I'm content to agree to disagree on the remaining one. From other discussion on this topic, it is clear that we understand a few verses differently (and most verses the same). | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 8025 Registered: 9-2006 |
I didn't mean to say that you were Ric. | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 663 Registered: 4-2007 |
This is about my 6th or 7th attempt to respond to Colleen's OP. I think the problem is found in the message practically all churches employ in order to be distinctive: "YES, Jesus is great…but we have so much more" The Adventist 'mores' are Sabbath, diet blah, blah, blah. Another church has communion twenty times a week, or a Starbucks and more blah, blah, blah. If we have not been able to distill the Gospel into it's basic essentials we will swayed into accepting 'stuff' as important that have absolutely nothing to do with the Gospel and salvation, we end up majoring in minors and drawn away. I believe that the essentials of the Gospel are: I'm a sinner, born a sinner, sinner by nature Saved only by God's grace through Faith alone in Christ alone You can spend a lifetime studying 'just' these and never tire of God's amazing grace. | ||
| Free2dance Registered user Username: Free2dance Post Number: 584 Registered: 2-2010 |
"Spiritual gifts are just that, GIFTS. Like the gift of salvation, if we do something in order to attain it, it is no longer a gift but a wage." Ric, I love that sentence. Thanks for your comments. To clarify, my comments above we're not meant to be divisive, but I do believe spiritual formation (or formulas) are simply works righteousness- just packaged differently. "...for whoever has entered God's rest has also rested from his works as God did from His." (Hebrews 4:10 ESV) | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 8026 Registered: 9-2006 |
Quote: These gifts never replace, alter, or add to the Word of God. Those who believe that they do neither accept the Word of God nor have the true guidance of the Holy Spirit. God chooses the gift, not us. Those who engage in the pursuit of the gifts they want, or who expect that if they DO certain things then God will respond in a special way with His Spirit are practicing a form of divination where they expect their actions to control God. We can't be open to following God and surrendering to God if we are also trying to control Him. Those two are in opposition to each other. Corinthians I 14:1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy. Spiritual gifts should not be viewed with apathy when love is our primary pursuit. When our primary pursuit is to control God (Get him to do something) then our gift seeking is out of whack. Because we speak in tongues, does that make us closer to God than the brother who does not? Or, because we have the gift of miracles, does that make us closer to God than the brother who does not? Or, because we don’t employ gifts at all, does that mean we are closer to God than the brother that does? I’m going to take it a bit further, just because a person is in a cult, does that mean we are closer to God than they are? Jonvil talked about distinctive’s, is our primary purpose to be distinct from others? To show others how much closer to God we are than they are? I am afraid the problem with gifts is that if God gives us one, the first thing we know we begin to think we are Gods gift to the masses, no matter what gift that is, or even if we are one of those whose pride is in not seeking the gifts. We’re proud because we speak in tongues. We’re proud because we don’t speak in tongues. Ladies and gentlemean, lets ring him in…bugle please…now the drums… there he stands, 30 foot tall! I give you Mr. PRIDE himself. Look at him, he’s so tall he stands between God and us and the gifts we so desire. My church speaks in tongues! My church don’t speak in tongues! Pride permeates the churches, all those little power struggles going on, so subtle and deeply hidden we don’t even know we are doing it. Pride destroys our chances of loving others and God can’t trust us with the gifts much because of it. River |
