| Author | Message | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 1233 Registered: 10-2008 |
I am very curious of our responses and unpacking this question. As an Adventist what was your understanding of: 1.) Who the Holy Spirit was? 2.) What the Holy Spirit did? And having left Adventism what is your current understanding of: 1.) Who the Holy Spirit is? 2.) What the Holy Spirit does? Scripture texts are always a plus  | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 13871 Registered: 12-2003  |
Wow, good question, Jrt! I did understand the Holy Spirit to be the "third person of the Godhead", but I didn't know what that meant. I imagined Him to be more of a "force", and I called Him "it". I thought he indwell our minds and gave us power to do right and work for God. I thought he might make us do things that would be terribly embarrassing, and he would help me avoid sin if I prayed enough and depended on him...whatever that meant. I thought he's help me cognitively understand spiritual issues...sort of "beef up" my ability to think and reason. I now understand Him to be fully God, to have all the attributes of God that the Father and the Son also have. I understand that He brings my dead spirit to life when I believe in the Lord Jesus, and He Himself is my Life and the seal on me guaranteeing that my eternal future is secure (Eph. 1:13-14). He intercedes for me when I pray (Rom. 8:26); He teaches me Scripture and applies it to my life. He reveals the truth about the Lord Jesus to me and makes His word make sense. He convicts the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment (Jn. 16:8-15). Colleen | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 1945 Registered: 12-2007  |
As a SDA I just assumed the Holy Spirit was the same as my conscience. Made me feel guilty when I did anything wrong and was a thing, an unknown unseen power that let me know when I needed to ask for forgiveness. NOW... I see Him as being a part of God. God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. Three as one God, and yet separate 'beings'each with their own unique purpose. I still also think of Holy Spirit as working with my thoughts and the one that gives me that uncomfortable 'knowing' when I have done something wrong. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1724 Registered: 7-2003  |
This is a really great question. To be honest, my concept of the Spirit as a SDA was so fuzzy that it's hard now to really define what I thought. As I think about it, some of my thoughts were directly contradictory, probably because I didn't understand the biblical concept of the Trinity to begin with. For starters, as a SDA I thought that there were three separate beings that were united in purpose and love so that we could refer to them as one God, kind of like three members of a family, but one family. I now know all of that is unbiblical. In fact, biblically, there is only one single being that is God, not three. The Holy Spirit is fully that one being. He is not a part of a divisible God, but is fully that one God in all His essence, substance, and being. So in a strange contradiction, as a SDA I would have expressed a heretical tritheistic view that there are three beings that are called God, yet I would have inexplicably denied the personhood of the Spirit by thinking of Him as something like a force (or at times my inner voice or conscience) and by routinely calling Him an “it”. So I had kind of a double set of contradicting heresies going in my head. Biblically I now understand that the Spirit is a person. He is personally distinct from the Father and the Son, but the Father, Son, and Spirit are one single indivisible being. So we are talking about one single being that is defined by eternal relationships of love within Himself. God has never lacked for love, for companionship, or for communication because He possesses all these things within Himself. He is one being in perfect relationship with Himself. He is eternally and simultaneously the Father, Son, and Spirit in one being. Now that I understand what the Bible teaches on this, I understand that I have all the fullness of God dwelling in me in the person of the Spirit. I don’t have part of God, some third-string god, or some force from God in me, but God Himself in all His fullness. I think understanding this also helps to explain why we see various things in the Bible about the Spirit in us, the Spirit of Christ in us, us in Christ, us in the presence of the Father, us seated in heavenly places, etc. All of these things are true because we are talking about one single being. So while it is specifically the person of the Spirit who indwells me, He is fully the one God which means Christ is in me, I am in Christ, I am in the presence of the Father, I am in heavenly places. It’s kind of mind blowing when you think about it. I have been invited into the eternal dance of the Triune God. I have been invited into relationship with the Father, Son, and Spirit. God has made a way for me to join into the relationships that have always defined him. Truly awesome! | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 1235 Registered: 10-2008 |
Chris, Thank you for your insights. It was extremely helpful for me to read how you now "see" and understand the Holy Spirit. I really resonated with your post and had a few "aha" moments while reading. I knew in my head that the Holy Spirit was God ... but you put it in such a way that really sunk in ... It was much like how I felt reading this forum early n my journey out of Adventism when I had an "aha" about Jesus being fully God ... Thanks! | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 1947 Registered: 12-2007 |
It was just a short time ago I realized that WE are ourselves a "trinity" made up of body, soul and spirit. Three 'parts'each with different purposes, and yet, ONE "being". | ||
| Dalvarenga Registered user Username: Dalvarenga Post Number: 41 Registered: 3-2012 |
I initially learned that the Holy Spirit is indeed the 3rd person of the trinity, and that God is 3 persons but 1 essence. I even listened to a series on that subject by Dr RC Sproul. However, I still struggle with this concept because I still see in the bible room for different interpretations. Jesus clearly says that the authority was given to him by the father, so to say that Jesus is equal the Father is going against scripture. Also, in revelation there is a clear separation between God the father and the lamb (Christ). I really need you guys to help me on this because I still struggle to understand the concept of the trinity. This is actually a very good study (IMO) on this subject: http://servetustheevangelical.com/doc/Why_Doesn't_the_Trinity_Have_Three_Thrones.pdf Would love to "hear" your thoughts on that. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 13875 Registered: 12-2003 |
Dalvarenga, please journal John 6. Jesus the man received His direction from the Father...but when He says He does nothing on His own initiative but only does what the Father is doing, He is not saying He is less than or not equal to the Father. That understanding is the Adventist explanation...but it's really inside-out. He only does what the Father does because God is One. The Persons of the Trinity cannot be teased apart; they function in complete unity. They are One. Even while on earth, the Lord Jesus was One with the Father and did whatever the Father did when the Father did it. And Jesus even said that not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to Jesus because He is the Son of Man. Jesus is fully God, and He did not and does not work apart from the Father. And whatever the Father does, He showed the Son and the Son does whatever the Father is doing. So, when Jesus healed the man at Bethesda in John 5, that was what the Father was doing at exactly the same time. The Father and the Son are not separate; they are together. They are One, and the Father gives the Son authority and Life so that all will honor the Son as they honor the Father. Check out John 6:20-30-ish. It's a statement of their unity, not their disunity. Collee | ||
| Dalvarenga Registered user Username: Dalvarenga Post Number: 42 Registered: 3-2012 |
That's exactly what I've heard but it is hard for me to see that in the bibble. I see so much more evidence of Jesus Christ being actually separated from God, in terms of person and being. The trinity concept won't be naturally understood when one reads the bible from beginning to end. I'm struggling with this because it is a very important subject and I want to understand it, but I can't just take that as truth without having the confirmation in the bible. Again, here is a quick overview on this subject based on the book of revelation: http://tinyurl.com/9ffhgt4 These are some verses that specifically mentions that there's one God only, the Father. And there's one Lord, Christ. Read the study I mentioned above and also these verses: "There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all." Ephesians 4:4-6 "So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that “An idol is nothing at all in the world” and that “There is no God but one.” For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live." 1 Cor 8:4-6 "For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus" 1 Tim 2:5 "Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." John 17:3 When I read the bible, I see that there's only one God (the Father) and one Lord (Christ), who is the son of God. However, that doesn't mean that Jesus is a "semi-god" or something like that. The bible is clear that "For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form" (Col 2:9), and that Jesus received that from the Father "just as I have received authority from my Father." (Rev 2:27). We need to talk more about this because I really need to get this straight. Danilo. | ||
| Dalvarenga Registered user Username: Dalvarenga Post Number: 43 Registered: 3-2012 |
"I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better." Ephesians 1:17 | ||
| Dalvarenga Registered user Username: Dalvarenga Post Number: 44 Registered: 3-2012 |
"...for the Father is greater than I" John 14:28 If Jesus is God, there should be no difference at all as far as greatness. | ||
| Punababe808 Registered user Username: Punababe808 Post Number: 109 Registered: 4-2012 |
I was taught, fully 100% taught, there is only one Holy One and that is God Almighty Himself. Therefore, The Holy Spirit is Gods spirit. As such we will not have access to His Holy Spirit until we are caught up in the clouds with Jesus when He finily comes in the clouds of glory that will start the millennium. | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 1243 Registered: 10-2008 |
Dalvarenga, How do you reconcile John 1? In other words what do you do when two things in the Bible "seem" to be sharing opposing views?
You mentioned in Revelation that there is a clear seperation between God and the "Lamb". How do you reconcile the following verses that teach Jesus is fully God and has always been and always will be. Jesus is seen as "Alpha and Omega" in Revelation ... Looking at these verses:
Who is the One that is to come? Clearly it is Jesus. And how is he described in Revelation? As the beginning and the end, Alpha and Omega - First and Last letter of the Greek Alphabet. Rev. 12:13 says:
Isaiah furthers this understanding:
Clearly, Revelation is teaching that Jesus is understood as the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last, and Jesus is the one true God. The Bible does teach the "trinity" concept ... One God in three persons. How this all plays out is quite a mystery - that can send our minds into tail spins. Hard to understand One God, but three persons ... yet the Bible clearly shows that Jesus is God - has always been and will always be ... Therefore, I take the tension in scripture and trust that it is all true - whether I fully understand it all or not. Whether my mind can fully encompass all the ramifications of One God in three persons. Carolyn | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2736 Registered: 7-2007 |
Dalvarenga; there's a couple really neat verses in the Bible that I like to point out when Jehovah's Witnesses come to my door, that show that Jesus is God [or Jehovah in their "translation"]! (Of course in their "translation" they've changed all the places where it says that Jesus is God, but they missed this - or hope their members won't notice this...) First, I point them to John 12:41 which says: "Isaiah said these things because he saw His glory and spoke of Him." Of course when I point this out, I go back a few verses to verse 36 and read all the way down through verse 41 so they can see that the verses are talking about Jesus. Then second, I refer them to Isaiah 6:1 where Isaiah saw His glory. "In the year that King Uzziah died I saw the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up; and the train of His robe filled the temple." | ||
| Katarain Registered user Username: Katarain Post Number: 241 Registered: 1-2012 |
Words and metaphors are a completely inadequate way to explain how I see God, and even how I understand God is a poor facsimile of the reality. For example, I've been watching Doctor Who lately, and in one part, the doctor is explaining a place that is outside the universe: Rory: How can we be outside the Universe? The Universe is everything. The Doctor: Imagine a great big soap bubble with one of those tiny little bubbles on the outside. Rory: Okay. The Doctor: Well it's nothing like that. and another quote: Amy: Wait, so we're in a tiny bubble universe sticking to the side of the bigger bubble universe? The Doctor: Yeah. No! But if it helps, yes. This has absolutely nothing to do with the topic, of course, except I am using it as an example of how we come up with these ways to explain God, and how they are completely inadequate, and we must not be so rigid as to try to put our concept of God into a neat little box. He is awesome and massive and the mystery of Godliness is indeed GREAT. So having said all of that, this is how I tend to view God, always recognizing that He is so much more than I could ever understand. John 12:37-38 "Even after Jesus had done all these miraculous signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him. This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet: 'Lord, who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?'" Jesus is the Arm of the Lord. Your arm is not any less you. Revelation21:22-23 "I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp." The Lamb is the lamp of the Glory of God. Here, I understand God's Glory to be light, and I think of that light as being so omnipresent and glorious, and it shines through Jesus. He is the Lamp. God is fully contained in Jesus, and God is also larger and grander than the body of Jesus. But Jesus IS fully and completely God. I think the next verse explains it better than I do. Hebrews 1:3 "The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven." Jesus is how we see God. He is the arm of the Lord, the express image of God, the lamp of the glory of God. God is so awesome and large and powerful that we can't see or comprehend Him. Jesus is how we can see and interact with Almighty God. Frankly, I tend to think the trinity doctrine is also an inadequate way to express God. There is entirely too much focus on 3 "persons" of God. People point out verses that show that the Holy Spirit can be worshiped, has a voice, and has other "person" traits, and I totally agree--the Holy Spirit IS God. He is not just a force from God, so of course He has all of the attributes of God. But to call Him a separate "person" misses the point, I think. To call Jesus a separate "person" also misses the point. Matthew 28:19 "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" Acts 4:10-12 "then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed. He is ‘the stone you builders rejected, which has become the capstone.' Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.” | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 662 Registered: 4-2007 |
I am very curious of our responses and unpacking this question. As an Adventist what was your understanding of: 1.) Who the Holy Spirit was? 2.) What the Holy Spirit did? HUH? WHO? And having left Adventism what is your current understanding of: 1.) Who the Holy Spirit is? 2.) What the Holy Spirit does? 1.) GOD! 2.) EVERYTHING! John 14:26 (NASB) "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you. Eph 1:13-14 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, (14) who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory. Tit 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, |
