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Free2dance
Registered user
Username: Free2dance
Post Number: 567
Registered: 2-2010
| | Posted on Saturday, July 28, 2012 - 6:56 pm: |     |
Thank you for sharing that, Colleen! How wonderful!! Can't stop smiling... |
Skeeter
Registered user
Username: Skeeter
Post Number: 1936
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, July 29, 2012 - 11:16 am: | |
I am just now catching up on the updates.
Praying all who attend receive what God desires for them. <3
Francie |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 13855
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 01, 2012 - 8:08 am: | |
I'm so sorry I wasn't able to keep posting updates. The weekend was so full and so tiring that I couldn't post updates after Saturday afternoon.
In all fairness we learned later that the woman who prayed with Carolyn on Saturday may or may not have truly received Jesus. She seemed to have some "issues" we couldn't quite define and did not take communion later. So we're not sure exactly what happened, but we pray that God will keep working in her heart.
Sunday was a wonderful day. Church at The Chapel was excellent; Phil Bubar preached on 1 John 3. Afterwards those attending FAF went to a great Italian restaurant, Papa Vino's, and we had a no-host lunch with each other. As many of you already know, one of our group sang "It Is Well" and "Blessed Assurance" after lunch, and we were pretty much all moved to tears. It was beautiful, but the poignancy of emotion that we all experienced reflected the joy we all felt that the Lord Jesus has made us alive and brought us into Himself.
Sunday evening was the first meeting hosted by The Chapel comparing Christianity to Adventism. This meeting launched a very hard-to-explain but profound spiritual battle.
The first meeting was absolutely powerful. Carolyn Macomber began by putting two very different kinds of chairs on the platform along with a tall trash can. She asked the audience what the first chair was called. (Yes--"a chair" is the right answer.) Next she asked about the second one, and again "chair" was the right answer. Then she asked about the trash can...it was clearly not a chair.
She pointed out that in order for something to carry a certain identifying name, it has to have certain common identifying features among all varieties of that thing. Likewise with Christianity. She said a belief system cannot be called Christianity if it does not endorse the true gospel identified in 1 Cor 15:1-4, and if it does not teach the biblical Jesus. She read quotes from EGW showing that Adventism teaches a different gospel and a different Jesus, and thus it cannot be called "Christian".
She played a clip of Dwight Nelson preaching one Sabbath and saying that Allah was the creator, almighty God, and that the Koran holds all the seeds of truth.
Then Carolyn stood at the podium and said with intense passion: "Allah never had a Son named 'Jesus'." It was unforgettable, and the audience was absolutely silent. The impact of her statement was overwhelming.
Ben McPhaull talked about the implications of EGW being a continuing and authoritative source of truth, and the evening ended with a Q & A. The evening was very impacting and intense.
That night, after the meeting, Carolyn was talking with a man who was Adventist who had sat on the front row during the meeting. He was very moved and drawn to the gospel truth, but he couldn't tell Carolyn if or when he had trusted Jesus. So she asked if he would like to "seal the deal", and he said yes. So they prayed, and he did accept Jesus. Carolyn introduced him to Richard as his new brother, and Richard talked to him for a while about what truths were now his because he belonged to Jesus. He was overwhelmed with joy. It's so interesting that the change in a person when they truly cross from death to life is so palpable.
Skip McCarty, former assoc. pastor from the Andrews Pioneer Memorial Church, was there. Richard and I spoke to him before the meeting started, and he was polite but a bit testy. He said Proclamation misrepresents Adventism, and EGW caused him to love Jesus.
I'll share details about Monday in another post.
Colleen |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 13856
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 01, 2012 - 8:24 am: | |
On Monday we went to Andrews campus and just walked through it, ending with some time in the heritage room of the James White Library. We realized with fresh clarity that the theology represented in the "Garden of Grace" outside Pioneer Memorial Church is not the gospel. The garden is set up to approach the cross by way of a seven-step stairway representing "creation week". Looking at the cross one sees himself and the reflection of the Law behind him in the polished granite behind the cross. Above the cross are the words, "I will come again." Never anywhere, in the garden nor in the legend posted beside the garden that explains it, is the blood of Jesus mentioned.
After gazing at the cross one turns and walks away from it toward the far side of the garden where God is represented by the Ten Commandments. The explanation says that one finds God and experiences Him where He is represented by the law. As one walks toward those Ten Commandments, he walks on a cross set into the cement floor. That cross is based in the law and points toward (but does not touch) the wooden cross one first approaches when he enters the garden. So, as one leaves the cross and walks to the Law where God is experienced, he walks on that cross set into the cement, and it is upside-down to the one walking.
The explanation of the garden says there are only two ways one can approach God embodied in the Law. One way is by way of the seven stairs and the cross; the other way is by the Holy Spirit represented by a fountain of life placed between the cross and the law. One may approach God by means of the Spirit or by way of the cross.
Never is the blood mentioned, and Jesus is only mentioned once, where the explanation of the garden states that the "grace of the Lord Jesus" is everywhere.
The audience was smaller on Monday evening, but Skip McCarty again arrived 30 minutes early. That night there was a palpable spiritual tension in the room. In fact, several people commented on that fact. I talked Monday night about the great controversy worldview and spent extra time on the nature of man and the new birth. I closed with a talk entitled "Sabbath Matters", and I addressed the most common arguments Adventists use to defend the Sabbath and showed Scriptures refuting those arguments.
Again the Q & A session was excellent.
After the meeting a member of The Chapel came to me. He had a very kind face with very "alive" eyes, and he said, "I felt the tension in the room tonight. This spiritual tension is what you are facing, and it is why no more people attended than were here."
Yet the man who had accepted Jesus was there again, his face glowing, and he brought his wife with him.
There were many good things that happened, and there was intense opposition, but God is in control, and we thank Him for a very good weekend.
Thank you, all of you, for your prayers.
Colleen |
Mjcmcook
Registered user
Username: Mjcmcook
Post Number: 565
Registered: 2-2011
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 01, 2012 - 9:02 am: | |
Colleen~
Thank-you again, Colleen, for being a faithful witness to all the events and experiences of the FAF week-end~ for sharing them with the FAF Family~
I was moved by your descriptions of the people and places you witnessed~ your writing made me feel as if I had been with you and Richard~
I was praying for all of you that were involved in the planning and presentation of the "Gospel" of JESUS CHRIST~ I also prayed for the HOLY SPIRIT to move in the hearts of all who attended~
Blessings~
~*~mj~*~ |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 9812
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 01, 2012 - 9:33 pm: | |
Colleen, thanks for your updates. I am so thankful for the one man who came to know Jesus Christ and that he brought his wife the next night.
In spite of the tension, those that were there were there because that is where God wanted them, even Skip McCarty. Who knows what God is doing with him.
Praying for all that they have a safe journey home.
Diana |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 7993
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, August 02, 2012 - 7:03 am: | |
Gods works are so much above anything we can imagine, but I think of the many lives that may be touched by that one man who wanted to 'seal the deal', it is just so remarkable.
River |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 13857
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 02, 2012 - 7:47 am: | |
I agree, River, and Diana, Carolyn and I were talking about that very thing yesterday. Skip was obviously there by God's will, and He's in charge of the outcomes. He protected us, and the gospel was clearly heard.
MJ, we all had the real sense that the FAF conference wasn't just "us" but all of us formers who were praying and who have a passion for Adventists to know Jesus. We are a growing family, a part of the body of Christ that shares a unique background and concern.
God really is faithful, and as River said, we won't know the outcomes of any of the lives that are touched in this life.
He calls us to be obedient to Him even when it looks like next-to-nothing is happening, and when the opposition seeks to discourage us and feel ashamed or foolish.
Colleen |
Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1723
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 02, 2012 - 11:28 am: | |
I find it interesting that McCarthy believes Proclamation misrepresents Adventism. Having read McCarthy's book "In Granite or Engrained", and written a detailed review of one of the key chapters, I believe we are accurately describing and interacting with views that McCarthy himself is on record as holding. Strongly disagreeing with a view and misrepresenting that view is not the same thing. You can accurately know, understand, and describe a view and yet still disagree with that view.
It seems to me that McCarthy's complaint is a variation on the deeply engrained SDA belief that if you really understood Adventism then you couldn't help but believe it. Therefore, a failure to agree with Adventism, of necessity, must be a failure to understand Adventism. This is not a logical deduction, but it is a common a priori assumption within Adventism. |
Mjcmcook
Registered user
Username: Mjcmcook
Post Number: 569
Registered: 2-2011
| | Posted on Thursday, August 02, 2012 - 12:33 pm: | |
Chris~
Responding to your post #1723~
I was "deeply ingrained" in adventism from the womb!
Four generations of the heresies from the "pen of inspiration"~egw~
Yes, I, along with many here on the Forum understand adventism, all too well!
The HOLY SPIRIT softened my heart to the TRUE
Gospel of JESUS CHRIST and I "came out" of the
darkness into GOD's Glorious LIGHT!
I will never cease to Praise HIM! Almighty GOD~
~mj~ |
Nowisee
Registered user
Username: Nowisee
Post Number: 1163
Registered: 5-2009
| | Posted on Thursday, August 02, 2012 - 1:16 pm: | |
Wow, Chris...bingo! That's profound. Failure to agree=failure to understand. That's so clarifying & helpful.
As one who had never been to Michigan before, seeing the places that had been so significant in my SDA education (i.e., Battle Creek) ...well, I'm having a hard time describing my reaction. The Heritage Village--the site of the "Great Controversy vision" church and the home Ellen & James & sons lived in...it was all so "empty" and bleak and I caught myself feeling like a was touring a famous Mormon area or something. We were the only ones touring at that time...the guide was so young and clean-cut but seemed clueless. She had her memorized speech down pat, but didn't seem to "get" some of our questions. There was a lack of Christianity in that place. (Although you could buy sets of SDA pioneer 'trading cards' which seemed very odd to me.) And you can get your photo taken next to a life-size cutout of Ellen or Kellogg (who actually became a 'former' ).
For those that have never had the experience of walking through the home of the Whites, a few interesting details: Ellen's boys slept in a tiny bedroom downstairs with one bed and a trundle bed. James had a tiny bedroom at the top right of the stairs in the back, and Ellen had the biggest room at the front of the house, because of course that angel woke her up each night, or she had a vision and then she had to get her writing done. There was so much going on in her bedroom that James probably didn't get much sleep .
Ellen also liked to make rag rugs, according to our guide. This ticked James off, and one day he brought home a visitor unannounced while she was sorting a mess of rags with one of her sons. This embarrassed James & later she overheard James singing a hymn about "no rag rugs in heaven" and she realized she had to give up her rug-making.
Seems silly as making rugs was a pretty practical thing to do....
The whole experience there was just weird.
The guide specifically said that her room wasn't a "shrine", but it's where they always stop and pray... thank you, Colleen, for presenting the REAL gospel in your prayer!!!!!
Our Kellogg museum guide (the director) shared with us the 'fact' that when meat-eaters hold their arms out for extended periods of time, they are unable to keep up with the vegetarians doing the same exercise, because "poison from the meat seeps out of the muscles" of the carnivore's arms.
He also told us that the prevailing belief of the time was that veggies were poisonous (and of course Ellen knew better)---that's skewed. People used to think, at one time in history, that tomatoes were poisonous, but people didn't believe ALL vegetables were.
One of my great-grandmothers was buried in the Haskell Home (orphanage) cemetery in Battle Creek. It was a big gothic-looking building that burnt down in the early 1900s, with 3 orphans losing their lives in the fire. Somehow, the denomination "lost" the cemetery, but we visited the site which is on the Battle Creek Academy grounds.
It was awesome to meet more formers...more family members! It was sad to have to say "good-bye"! It was awesome to meet and talk with Christians that "get it" and care about a whole group that needs to hear about the real Jesus and the real gospel....just wonderful to be part of the body of Christ!!!!!!
More later.... |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 13860
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 03, 2012 - 7:59 am: | |
Chris, exactly. Richard and I were both, restrospectively, convinced that McCarty wasn't quite prepared for how well all of us really knew Adventism and its details. His questions/comments on the Q & A cards seemed almost insipid; some of his complaints criticized us on points that we had specifically answered during the two nights' worth of meetings.
I agree with your formula: not believing Adventism = not understanding it, according to them.
Nowisee, yes. It was all just weird. But you surely got a good picture of your husband with his arm around the life-sized cut-out of Ellen! 
Colleen |
Jrt
Registered user
Username: Jrt
Post Number: 1227
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Friday, August 03, 2012 - 3:20 pm: | |
I've been recouperating from the programs, but thoroughly enjoying this thread. Colleen has captured the time well.
I was pretty exhausted by the end of the time - but blown away at God's amazing power. The formers shared their stories and one person's story was truly inspiring. I hope that person will feel comfortable to share their story in a public format soon. It always amazes me - God's leading and direction and provision when we step out in faith and follow Him.
We had people come from ALL over; Washington State, Virginia, even Canada. There is such joy in a group of former Adventists!! ... I remember my first FAF - and wondering if Colleen and Richard were "angry" formers along with all the others that were there - I was scared to death!! Ha, Ha! Now I have Colleen and Richard joyfully supporting and participating in a Midwest FAF. There is such a passion for the gospel and for Christ when you get us together. Seeing one of the formers literally beam from ear to ear - who recently made the choice to leave ... even brings joyful tears to my eyes now.
Nowisee and her husband were instrumental in helping facilitate this. Anything that was needed they were willing to help with - and I needed it!!!!!
As I look back there are a few moments that stand out in my mind. Colleen's presentation on the Sabbath for the FAF part brought me to tears ... Listening to a couple of stories of God bringing some former's out - was inspiring. Then seeing the smile on my own pastor's face as we told him that one of the people who came to the Sunday night program had received Jesus' as their Lord and Savior. The whole story behind that was truly amazing. This past Easter one of our church member's shared with our congregation how a friend (Adventist friend) had given him the book, More than a Carpenter. Our member jokingly talked about throwing the book into the back of his car never thinking he would ever read it. Then on a long business flight he grabbed the book from his car to read. By the end of the flight he had become convinced of Jesus and received Him as his Lord. Our church member then asked this (Adventist) man that had given him the book to come to Easter services where his story would be shared. Our church member intuitively knew the Adventist friend did not know Jesus and so had invited him to Easter services. Nothing happened then. Well, fast forward several more months to this conference and the Adventist that had given the book to our church member came to our meetings. The Adventist accepted Jesus' as his Savior. My pastor was blown away that things had now come full circle.
I was also blessed to know that the FAF group in California were specifically praying for us. Colleen would let me know that they were getting together to pray, some were praying then, and so on. What a HUGE encouragement that was. And then in the midst of the business of it all her FAF group had sent money for "us" to go out and get some latte's at a special coffee shop - in the midst of all the stress - others had kindly sent a special gift to us.
And thank you for the prayers here ... Wow ...
Carolyn |
Sharon3
Registered user
Username: Sharon3
Post Number: 152
Registered: 2-2010
| | Posted on Monday, August 06, 2012 - 6:35 pm: | |
"She, (Carolyn) played a clip of Dwight Nelson preaching one Sabbath and saying that Allah was the creator, almighty God, and that the Koran holds all the seeds of truth."
Could you make this clip available for us to hear? Thank you |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 13870
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 07, 2012 - 12:54 am: | |
Sharon, the clip was taken from this YouTube video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fU6-rKqfigM
This is from his sermon on December 11, 2010.
Colleen |
Sharon3
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Username: Sharon3
Post Number: 153
Registered: 2-2010
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 07, 2012 - 11:18 am: | |
Thank you Colleen, This clip is VERY DISTURBING. Pioneer Memorial was my college church for 4 years. |
Jrt
Registered user
Username: Jrt
Post Number: 1232
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 07, 2012 - 2:36 pm: | |
Sharon, you are not alone in being disturbed ... Last night a never-been SDA commented on the clip (She had come to the meetings) and said she was aghast! She couldn't believe what she was hearing and seeing. Her husband has watched on occasion Dwight on TV ...
It is impossible to dismiss the video and it was not taken out of context ... You can watch the whole sermon online. |
1john2v27nlt
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Username: 1john2v27nlt
Post Number: 428
Registered: 5-2009
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 07, 2012 - 3:43 pm: | |
I was disturbed by Dwight Nelson's mannerisms.
I also noted that he said the word God we use was from a pagan nordic god; that Allah is the true god; that Allah is not the name of Lucifer.
They will call wrong right, and right wrong.
J9 |
Nowisee
Registered user
Username: Nowisee
Post Number: 1172
Registered: 5-2009
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 07, 2012 - 11:55 pm: | |
The SDAs we've shared this clip with (inviting them to discuss the issues with us) just ignore it & don't respond. One person, when told we'd like them to be aware of this, said, "Oh, I don't get into that!" Unaware of what Christians in other countries are suffering d/t Islam.
No matter how many times I see him being so animated about allah, it still shocks me to hear what is coming out of his mouth. And I wonder why no one is standing up & saying "What are you talking about!?" |
Sharon3
Registered user
Username: Sharon3
Post Number: 154
Registered: 2-2010
| | Posted on Monday, August 13, 2012 - 12:15 am: | |
As an Adventist, I WAS vulnerable to New Age, Universalism, extra Biblical information, and even thought Jews and Moselms had the same God as Christians because it was the God of Abraham. NOW as a Christan with the veil off and looking back, I understand why Adventists aren't shocked over Nelson's claims. But even then in my past, I think I would have reacted to this. I'm still very disturbed to see how bad this really is-- shocked!!!
Your right Nowisee, that they don't respond when brought to their attention. |
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