| Author | Message | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 13813 Registered: 12-2003  |
I'm writing the commentary for next week's SAbbath School lesson. This quarter's lessons are written by Jon Paulien and are on the books of 1 and 2 Thessalonians. Interestingly, it seems these lessons have little to do with the actual material in the epistles...at least this week's lessons have little to do with it. In preparation for writing this commentary, I just watched (again) Paulien's 2008 talk on Paul, The Remnant, and The Great Controversy. He gave this talk at the 150 anniversary celebration I'm the Ohio Conference; the weekend convocation was entitled, "The Love of the Ages". In this talk, Paulien builds a case (quoting liberally from liberal and even non-Christian historians and scholars) that Christianity has lost significant components over the years. It lost the uniqueness of Judaism including the law and the Sabbath, and because Christians and Jews pulled away from each other, this fracturing gave rise to Islam. Islam he presents as the voice of reason which says that when a religion is destroyed or rejected, we all lose something. Further, he quotes from the Koran and builds the point that Islam is the religion that values the sacred writings of the Jews and the Christians, and that true worshipers of Allah will embrace all revelation equally: the OT revelation, the NT revelation, and the revelations to Mohammed. Paulien says that they who were gathered there that day were truly worshiping Allah as are those in the synagogues and in the mosques. He concludes by saying that the remnant of revelation will be a uniting of the now-fractured three monotheistic religions, each of which retains characteristics of God's remnant people. Christians, he says, emphasize Gospel, Grace, and Jesus. Judaism emphasizes Law, Obedience, and Sabbath, and Islam emphasizes Submission, Judgment, and Eschatology. Christianity, he contends, began as an eastern religion. It changed as it became centered in Europe and took on a Greek, western "flavor". It changed again as it centered in North America, and now it is returning to its "roots"...moving back to the developing world. ADventists, he says, have a unique calling that is a balance between identity and humility. No one is better suited to the work of restoring unity to the world than Adventists. Paulien also says "One of the clearest places outside of Ellen White where the Great Controversy can be found is the Koran." He says he was shocked "how much there is [in the Koran] about Satan and about good against evil and about a 'cosmic jihad'." BUT...Jesus said the gates of hell would not prevail against the church. NOTHING has been lost from Christianity. Paulien is definitely helping position Adventism as a world religion. Adventism is not benign...merely a variation of evangelical Christianity. Adventism is moving towards embracing Islam and other world religions. As Paulien says,
Praise God for calling us to Himself... Colleen | ||
| Mkfound Registered user Username: Mkfound Post Number: 194 Registered: 1-2011 |
Wow, just wow. I almost can't believe how direct this is. Of course SDAism has more in common with another religion which does not consider Jesus as God. It all makes sense. | ||
| Katarain Registered user Username: Katarain Post Number: 229 Registered: 1-2012 |
So, the Image of the Beast is the unity of all protestant Sunday churches, but the unity of Islam, Judaism, and Adventism is not? Those who profess Jesus Christ have the mark of the Beast, but those who either reject or belittle Him are saved? Wow. | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2703 Registered: 7-2007 |
Ewwwwwwwwww... it sounds like Satan is carefully uniting all his religions.... | ||
| Free2dance Registered user Username: Free2dance Post Number: 551 Registered: 2-2010 |
Wow... Just, wow... We live in very interesting times! Do you have a link for this, Colleen? | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 2727 Registered: 5-2007  |
This video covers what Colleen is talking about concerning Jon Paulien's view of the remnant: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jccuh-xwgKo Phil | ||
| Punababe808 Registered user Username: Punababe808 Post Number: 84 Registered: 4-2012 |
Sounds like total rubbish to me. Do the SDA's who consider themselves Christian fall for that? | ||
| Foofighter Registered user Username: Foofighter Post Number: 242 Registered: 7-2005 |
Phil, Thanks for the link. I listened to the video. Adventists seem to be making a concerted effort to emphasize their commonality with Islam. Dwight Nelson, William Johnsson, and now Jon Paulien. It is so amazing to hear "Christians" proclaim how much they are like Muslims, and how unlike they are with Christians. I just can't even believe my own ears with these people!!! Carol | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 2728 Registered: 5-2007 |
Yes Carol, My grandmother, a stanch historical SDA and who knew the prophet, just turn over in her grave and cracked the bronze marker in family plot of the St Helena Cemetery. Phil | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 670 Registered: 7-2005 |
The positive element in Paulien's lessons is his position regarding the New Testament role of prophecy.
Best shot:
Obviously Paulien doesn't remove the log in his adventist eye (the prophetic calculation leading to 22 October 1844 date which is still a valid calculation and constitutes the basic foundation of his church)but is ready to remove the speck from other people's eyes. Compare it with Bradshaw's use of Harold Camping failed prophetic calculations in the It Is Writtenseminar without saying a word about millerite failed prophetic calculations, see Chris Lee article in the new Proclamation!. There is another element that is in my view the biggest contradiction in Paulien's treatment of the epistles, but I'll let you the pleasure of discovering it for yourself. Gabriel | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2705 Registered: 7-2007 |
I watched most of the video that Phil posted. Did anyone notice how smoothly Jon Paulien talked and acted? Kind of like a snake, except that I would have fallen for it, hook, line and sinker when I was an Adventist. He said that Christians lost something, that they lost the Sabbath, when in reality Christians have lost nothing - real Christians, that is. The law has become the Holy Spirit, writing on their hearts. The Sabbath represented Jesus. Adventists believe that only if they do and do and do, will they be saved. They're ever struggling and never with any assurance of salvation. Christians know they have salvation NOW, not hoping that they will, some date in the future when Jesus comes back. (The seal of the Holy Spirit within them is the guarantee - Ephesians 1:13-14.) Jon Paulein makes a lot of false statements such as Christians having lost the Sabbath and then KA-BOOM Islam appears! And then to make it sound as if Islam is just as good as Christianity! That makes all kinds of alarm bells go off! Only through Jesus can anyone be saved. There is no other way! There is no salvation in any other. Not in Mohamed or anyone else! | ||
| Gcfrankie Registered user Username: Gcfrankie Post Number: 894 Registered: 1-2007 |
Well the true color of SDA has reemerged. SDA held hands with Hitler and now is working on Islam. That is scary! I remember back when a committee of SDA's met with Walter Martin (author of 'The kingdom of the Cults) and bragged about pulling the wool over his eyes by only giving half truths or lying about the church and their beliefs and because of this they got their status changed from cult to christian. This was in the 1970's. Today they are sneaker about their true teachings than they were before the 70's and so christians have a much harder time truely trying to figure them out to be cultic. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 9792 Registered: 3-2004  |
Adventists have flown under the radar for so long, that unless a Christian has worked closely with them, they are thought to be Christian but go to church on Saturday. Some of my Christian friends have worked with sdas and know they are a cult. Diana | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 13819 Registered: 12-2003 |
Very true, Diana. And Gcfrankie, the Muslin mufti worked with Hitler during WWII. There was a whole regiment of muslims. I believe Nowisee has (or has access to) a documentary that documents their connection with photographs and details. Here's the link to my summary of Paulien's video that I posted for the first day's commentary for this week: http://biblestudiesforadventists.com/2012/quarter3/week2/sabbathschool1.html Colleen | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 1219 Registered: 10-2008 |
As I looked at the links above I came across some other links in utube. I watched for awhile some utube talks by Dwight Nelson. Nelson also, seems to agree and begin the process of breaking down walls between Muslims and Christians. The utube portion had Nelson saying with passion - Make no mistake about it - Allah is the god of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Allah IS the name of God. Muslims, Jews, and Christians all claim Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as their "fathers". Yet, that is where similarities end. As you study the different religions they all have a different understanding of Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit. The god of Muslims IS different than the God of Christianity. Anyways, thanks Colleen for your commentary! | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 2729 Registered: 5-2007 |
Jrt, I did the same and also watched the Dwight Nelson video and heard the same outrageous claim. When a person makes the claim that Allah is God then what you know is that the person doesn't have a personal relationship with Jesus and has no idea who God really is. And, it does tell you something about Adventist theology….doctrines of demons. It also tells you why Paul wouldn’t let the fortune teller in Philippi testify about who Jesus is. When promoters of heresy speak of ‘good sounding theology’ beware of the lies inserted into their words. Phil | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 13821 Registered: 12-2003 |
Great points, Phil. Yes, Carolyn...that Nelson video is really upsetting. Colleen | ||
| Punababe808 Registered user Username: Punababe808 Post Number: 89 Registered: 4-2012 |
My SDA upbringing taught me the pope/Catholic church is the beast of Revelation. Now the beast is the unifier? | ||
| Free2dance Registered user Username: Free2dance Post Number: 561 Registered: 2-2010 |
Colleen, amazing paragraphs! Wow...so clear and succinct! "First, the concern in this lesson over those who are converted to Adventism only to leave quietly out the back door grows out of the complete lack of Adventism’s understanding of being born again. People who are born again must first hear the biblical gospel, and Adventism does not teach the biblical gospel. Stated succinctly in 1 Corinthians 15:3-4, the gospel is simple: Jesus died for our sins according to Scripture; He was buried, and He rose on the third day according to Scripture. Jesus died for human sin and took the wrath of God for sin; when we place our faith in Him and repent, we are transferred from death to life (Jn. 5:24), taken from the domain of darkness and placed in the kingdom of God’s beloved Son (Col. 1:13). At that moment we are sealed with the Holy Spirit (Eph. 1:13-14), and we are born again of the Spirit as Jesus explained to Nicodemus we must be born in order to see the kingdom of God (Jn. 3:3-6). People who are not taught the pure, simple gospel of Scripture will not be born again. “Faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ” (Rom. 10:17). Adventism does not teach the biblical gospel, and “converts” to Adventism are accepting a unique package of doctrines. This package based on the doctrines endorsed by the visions of an extra-biblical prophet will not result in people being born again. In many cases it is inevitable that people will leave after joining; they have no real heart change, and the doctrines are unfamiliar and so is the related lifestyle. Trying to keep people “in” by befriending them will not work long-term because such friendship is based on human motives and fails to address the hunger that drives people to search for truth in the first place. A false gospel can never satisfy the spiritually hungry heart." Love it! I would LOVE to be a fly on the wall when Jon see's his motives placed in the light of truth! "...behind the presentation of these lessons which ostensibly explicate 1 and 2 Thessalonians, there is Paulien’s non-articulated but shaping belief that Adventists are called to negotiate a unifying of the three “separated” fragments of monotheism: Christianity, Judaism, and Islam." | ||
| Free2dance Registered user Username: Free2dance Post Number: 562 Registered: 2-2010 |
"...I don’t think you’re fulfilling the great controversy vision.'" Phew...I am so relived to know that I am not fulfilling the Great Controversy Vision!!! "... Christianity was separated from Judaism illegitimately." WHAT?! "He points out that *Islam says* that when someone separates or otherwise gets rid of a religion, everyone loses something." So now Islam is an authority of truth?!?! However, scripture is no longer relevant. "Paulien further posits that Christianity began as an eastern religion, became westernized and influenced by Greek thought as it moved into Europe, and now it is returning to its roots, becoming an eastern religion again, as it was originally intended to be." "And He said to them, 'Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation..." Mark 16:15 Huh! Seems clear to me that Christianity was not meant to be an "eastern religion". "Paulien also says that when he lived in the Middle East, many Muslims did not see him as a Christian. 'That bothered me,' he said, but then he realized that Muslims disagree with Christians over lifestyle issues, and Adventists share these lifestyle convictions with Muslims. He said the division between Christianity and Islam in the Middle East occurred over alcohol, pork, modesty, their views of Christian history, and the issue of submission/obedience. Christians, Islam says, are known to be lax, and Muslims are strict." SO telling! "Adventists are 'bearers of a vital and unique message'. Theirs is 'a divine calling and history,' and there is 'no greater mission in the universe.'" Again, their gospel (3 angels) is placed above the gospel of Jesus Christ. Great summary Colleen! "He is moving them toward believing they all worship the same God." But aren't' they? | ||
| Joyfulheart Registered user Username: Joyfulheart Post Number: 918 Registered: 10-2006 |
This stuff is so outrageously wrong! I don't see how ANY believer in Jesus Christ who is as the Bible teaches the ONLY way to God can even be around it. God is NOT allah, buddha, the dalai lama or anyone else. All roads do NOT lead to God - if the Bible is your standard of truth. Salvation and forgiveness of sin is found only in Jesus Christ. There is no other. By the way, if they're all roads to the same God, why not follow Jesus? |
