| Author | Message | ||
| 8thday Registered user Username: 8thday Post Number: 1528 Registered: 11-2007  |
Here is a Youtube clip posted by an SDA on facebook: http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=380329660926 The JEWISH author is talking about the benefits of Sabbath - how our culture has lot this value and because we don't practice it anymore -our lives are frenzied and we don't take time for rest or family. She has some valid points (while of course being Jewish cannot see the the Sabbath was given for a much bigger purpose - to point to Jesus.) Because she mentioned she thought it would be beneficial for a democratic society to institute laws about ceasing to work on a day (which she did not say WHICH day) - the SDA's commenting on this video started saying.. "Here it comes... " ??????????????????? Anyway - just had to share. Amusing to me. I am sure this woman would be hailed a hero by her own people if she managed to convince America to pass Sunday laws.  Sondra | ||
| Cloudwatcher Registered user Username: Cloudwatcher Post Number: 54 Registered: 5-2009 |
she's Jewish by ethnicity, but she's agnostic. ain't that a twist.... i pray sdas can see that keeping the sabbath (that they feel so self-righteous about) can be done even if you don't believe in God, but accepting Jesus as your Sabbath rest can only be accomplished by a born-again believer. | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 818 Registered: 2-2008  |
So true Cloudwatcher!!! Most adventists can't see or understand how Jesus is their Sabbath rest because they haven't accepted Christ as their Savior. They haven't accepted the fact that He blotted out their sins by His death on the cross, therefore completing atonement at the cross!! Their acts are self-righteous because they haven't accepted the righteousness of Christ. Most Adventists are so scared of these supposed "Sunday" laws that they are not placing their trust in God and His sovereignty. They can't see their life as being for the purpose of glorifying God because they're busy thinking about themselves. They're so busy looking for the "sign" that they are missing out on Jesus and the rest He has given us. vivian | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11199 Registered: 12-2003  |
So true, Vivian. Colleen | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1964 Registered: 4-2000  |
According to conservative Judaism, the weekly Sabbat should not be a day of mourning. In other words, no funerals should be conducted on that day--even though in Judaism the body is interred within a day or two after death without embalming. Selected members of the local synagogue (often on a rotating basis) provide a special cleansing (washing) of the body with special cloth wrappings. Thus, burial occurs before the legal requirements for embalming take effect. Morticians dutifully respect the unique wishes of Jewish families. In Adventism, however, more and more funerals and memorial services are now conducted on Saturdays. Yes, even the funerals for Ellen and James White were held on a Saturday to enable more people to attend the service. In Ellen's case, the local surrounding SDA churches (Battle Creek, MI area) were closed so members could attend her final and third funeral. Strangely, Ellen White was interred 33 days after her third funeral. The White Estate claims that they don't why the interment was delayed so long. Her body was placed initially in a vault (for 33 days) owned by the funeral service. Obviously, this increased the cost of her estate's final expenses. Maybe they thought she would somehow be raised from the dead (smile). Some speculate that the SDA officials were afraid that Dr. John Kellogg would exhume her body and perform a brain autopsy on her. Ellen White's death was a major shock to her devout followers. How could they live successfully without her constant testimonies? Throughout their days in Seventh-day Adventism, they were never without their beloved and revered prophetess. Now they no longer had a living prophet amongst them (a major point in their early beliefs). Not only was Ellen White very strange during her lifetime, but she was even strange in events surrounding her death and burial. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1001 Registered: 3-2009 |
I now have read several times in this forum that SDAs believe that they have to have a living prophet so they can say they have the spirit of prophecy. Dennis above says: "Now they no longer had a living prophet amongst them (a major point in their early beliefs)." Is there somewhere I can go to sustain this claim? Some quotes. Some book, magazine, etc.If this is a requisite to be the remnant, then SDAs cannot claim to be the remnant anymore. That would be a blow! Hec | ||
| 8thday Registered user Username: 8thday Post Number: 1537 Registered: 11-2007 |
Wouldn't it be ironic of the anti-christ passed Saturday laws instead? There are plenty of Sabbath laws in Israel. I asked an SDA recently how the Jews will be lost if they don't receive the Mark of the Beast through Sunday worship. The answer was they have to have faith in Jesus to be saved, ... so in essence you are left with a 3rd group Revelation does not mention - one that does not take the Mark - but is still lost. I never heard that about the early SDA beliefs- having a living prophet. Interesting!! Guess they had to change their tune on that one. Love to see some info on that too. Sondra | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 555 Registered: 7-2005 |
Hec Before the death of Ellen White, adventists presented their identity as the remnant church based on having "the spirit of prophecy" and pointed to their living prophet in contrast with the other churches that had no such prophet. The reply was that the We have 'the spirit of prophecy' in the writings of the prophets of the Bible." But the adventist reply was that the church must have a living prophet and not a dead prophet in order to qualify as the remnant church. Once the prophet was dead, they are in the same position as the other churches, having only the writings of a dead prophet. Consequently the previously alleged superiority and distinctiveness was lost. Gabriel | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 8150 Registered: 3-2004  |
I never learned in sda schools that we needed a living prophet. EGW has been dead 95 years now. What will the sda church do? Diana L | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 2092 Registered: 5-2007  |
Gabriel, Yes, we must have a living prophet! Since Jesus is the spirit of prophecy and he isn't dead, we do have a living prophet. Only, it isn't Ellen who is dead.  Fearless Phil | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1006 Registered: 3-2009 |
Gabriel, I understand. I just would like to have some evidence of the fact that they claimed to be superior because they had a living prophet. Hec | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1965 Registered: 4-2000 |
Hec, Thank you for your comments about having a living prophet amongst the so-called "remnant people." As I indicated earlier, devout Adventists were shocked in 1915 when their prophetess died. They were even reluctant to bury her for 33 days after her funeral. Obviously, her delayed burial had nothing to do with hard, frozen soil because her death occurred in July (the warmest month of the year). Ellen's deceased body was encased in ice from California to Michigan for the long train ride. Willy, her son, accompanied her body on the train. To give you a glimpse of the in-house turbulence about the early view that a "living prophet" would identify the remnant people, the following quote from a SDA book will be helpful:
It is evident from the above quotation that L. H. Christian (an Adventist author) desperately tried to uphold the testimonies from his dead prophet as being somehow more relevant after 1915. Hopefully, this quote from L. H. Christian will be helpful to you. BTW, I had William Fagal from the White Estate assist me in finding this archived quotation. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1008 Registered: 3-2009 |
Thanks, Dennis for your effort in finding this quote as week as it may be, it's some help. However, it would be really a blow if we could find some quote from the time while she was still alive and boating that SDA was the remnant because they had a living prophet. Hec | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 706 Registered: 12-2007 |
found this on the site "nonsda.org" Seventh-day Adventists teach that the book of Revelation identifies their church as the "remnant church" of Bible prophecy. This is based upon a Bible verse found in Revelation 12:17: And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. In the SDA 2009 (1st quarter, lesson #4) adult Sabbath School Quarterly, the author writes: As Seventh-day Adventists, we believe that we are members of God’s remnant church. The following points explain how Seventh-day Adventists identify themselves as the "remnant" of Revelation 12:17. 1. The "woman" represents the true church of God, that keeps all the commandments of God, including the Sabbath commandment. The true church "fled into the wilderness" (Rev. 12:6) for a period of 1,260 years. This occured when the Waldenses and Albigenses hid in the mountains during the period of papal supremecy (from 538 AD to 1798 AD) and preserved the truth of the Sabbath and the Bible for 1,260 years. 2. At the time of the end, Satan makes war with the "remnant." The "remnant" is identified as those who "keep the commandments" and have the "testimony of Jesus." According to Adventists, the "commandments" are the Old Covenant Ten Commandments given to Israel in Sinai, and the "testimony of Jesus" is their prophet, Ellen G. White. Ellen White explains: The law of God and the Spirit of Prophecy go hand in hand to guide and counsel the church, and whenever the church has recognized this by obeying His law, the spirit of prophecy has been sent to guide her in the way of truth. Rev. 12:17: "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." This prophecy points out clearly that the remnant church will acknowledge God in His law and will have the prophetic gift. Obedience to the law of God, and the spirit of prophecy has always distinguished the true people of God, and the test is usually given on present manifestations.1 In the same book the above quote was taken from, Ellen White refers to herself or her writings as the "spirit of prophecy" more than 30 times. For example, Brother B.... Study the messages that God has sent to His people for the last sixty years through the Spirit of Prophecy.2 Adventists use an interesting formula to equate Ellen White with the Spirit of Prophecy. First, Adventists say that one of the identifying marks of the remnant is that they have the "testimony of Jesus". Adventists say that Revelation 19:10 unlocks the meaning of the testmimony of Jesus: "for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." This provides the first half of the equation: Testimony of Jesus = Spirit of Prophecy. Testimony of Jesus = Spirit of Prophecy = ? According to Adventist doctrine, the true remnant church must have a prophet. This argument was introduced as early as 1855. After its formation in 1863, the SDA Church recognized Ellen White as having the prophetic gift. For many years the SDA church boasted that the prophetic gift must be active in the church--in other words, there must be a living prophet in the remnant church. Some of Ellen White's books--the forerunners to the Conflict of the Ages series--were entitled Spirit of Prophecy, and as noted above, Mrs. White and other Church leaders frequently referred to her testimonies (written or verbal) as the Spirit of Prophecy. Testimony of Jesus = Spirit of Prophecy = Ellen G. White Note carefully from the quote at the top of this page that Ellen White said, "the test is usually given on present manifestations." After Mrs. White's death in 1915, the Adventist church was in a dilemma because they no longer had a living prophet. So, they redefined their previous teachings, and began teaching that Ellen White "lives on" through the writings of her books. Problems with Adventist Truth about the Remnant Let us examine the problems with Adventist teachings regarding the identity of the Remnant Church. 1. Did the Waldenses keep the truth alive for 1,260 years? First, there is no church group that kept the "truth" of the Sabbath alive during the Dark Ages. The Waldenses were not Sabbath-keepers, and they did not move to the mountains until after 1184 AD. Persecution ended by the middle of the 1600s, so this group was in the "wilderness" less than 500 years. (For more facts about the Waldenses, click here) 2. Did the Albigenses keep the truth alive for 1,260 years? Although in Great Controversy Mrs. White points to the Albigenses as a group that preserved the "truth" during the era of papal supremecy, the Albigenses were a heretical group of fanatics who believed the Old Testament was written by Satan, that Christ had no real body, and that marriage was evil. The group barely survived one century. (For more facts about the Albigenses, click here) 3. Is the 1,260-year period accurate? Adventists apply the year-day principal to turn the 1,260 days into 1,260 years, but that is an arbritrary application of the year-day principal. Even if the days are indeed years, the dates of 538 AD to 1798 AD are questioned even by SDA scholars. (For more facts about these dates, click here) 4. Who has the Spirit of Prophecy? In 1 Corinthians 12:7-11 the Bible says the Holy Spirit is the source of spiritual gifts. One of those gifts is the gift of prophecy (1 Cor. 12:10). Therefore, the phrase "Spirit of Prophecy" would be a reference to the Holy Spirit--the One who gives the gifts--and not to the human recipient of the gift.4 Mrs. White claimed to be (or have) the "spirit of prophecy" but in order to make such a claim, one must, of course, pass the tests of a prophet. There is significant evidence that Mrs. White failed six of the seven Biblical tests of a prophet. Even if Mrs. White had passed the tests, the SDA Church has not had a living prophet in over 94 years. That puts it in the exact same position as all other commandment-keeping Christian churches who do not have a living prophet. Other Christian churches follow the writings of dead prophets, such as Isaiah, Jeremiah, and the Apostle John. In fact, the writings of at least 24 deceased prophets appear in the Bible. So, how is the SDA Church different from any other Christian Church in this regard? Is it because they follow the writings of 25 deceased prophets instead of 24?5 Does the fact that SDA's have one more prophet than most other churches prove that they are the only ones who have the Spirit of Prophecy? Even Ellen White described her writings as a "lesser light" pointing to the writings of the 24 Biblical authors who had the real spirit of prophecy.6 In fact, she admitted that her writings were not even necessary: If you had made God's word your study, with a desire to reach the Bible standard and attain to Christian perfection, you would not have needed the Testimonies.7 So, how important, then, is that 25th prophet? Mrs. White implies she is not even necessary so long as one follows the writings of the other 24 prophets. That being the case, how can the SDA Church claim to be the sole church having the Spirit of Prophecy? They only have 1 more deceased prophet than other churches, AND, that one prophet said... Her writings merely pointed to the writings of the other 24 prophets She was not needed if believers would study the other 24 prophets 5. Is the Testimony of Jesus Ellen White's writings?? In Revelation 12:17, the word, "Testimony" (Greek marturia) comes from a root word which, in its various Greek forms, means "testifying," "testimony," "witness," and "martyr." The phrase "Of Jesus" could be understood in two ways: The testimony came from Jesus. This stresses Jesus as the source of the testimony. The testimony is about Jesus. This stresses Jesus as the subject of the testimony. Notice how the apostle John understood the meaning of the word "testimony" (marturia): This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony [marturia] is true. (John 21:24) What John is telling us in this verse is that his gospel is a testimony about Jesus. Therefore, John's gospel is the "testimony of Jesus." Now, notice how John uses marturia to describe the testimony of the believer concerning Jesus: ...for this is the witness [marturia] of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness [marturia] in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record [marturia] that God gave of his Son. And this is the record [marturia], that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. (1 John 5:9-11) In these important verses we find that those who believe on Jesus have the marturia, the witness or testimony of Jesus, in them! How is the "testimony of Jesus" used in Revelation? [John] Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony [marturia] of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. (Rev. 1:2) In this verse John says he bore witness of three things: The Word of God The Testimony of Jesus Christ The things that he saw (in vision) John goes on to say in verse 9: I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony [marturia] of Jesus Christ. Notice the two reasons that John gives for being imprisoned on the isle of Patmos: The Word of God The Testimony of Jesus Clearly it was John's testimony about Jesus that resulted in his being imprisoned. Notice something else: John had the "Testimony of Jesus" when he was on Patmos. That was somewhere between 65 AD and 100 AD. So, the "Testimony of Jesus" being the "Spirit of Prophecy" existed in the ministry of John, over 1,700 years before the birth of Ellen [Harmon] White. Look at Revelation 6:9: And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony [marturia] which they held. Notice the martyrs were slain for two reasons: The Word of God Their testimony [marturia], presumably about Jesus. The SDA Church teaches that among these martyrs were those who died in the 1,260-year reign of the papacy, which is claimed by them to have started in 538 AD and ended in 1798 AD. Again, these martyrs had the "testimony" long before Ellen Harmon was born. From the context of Revelation chapter 12, the testimony of Jesus clearly refers to the word of testimony of those who "loved not their lives unto the death": And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony [marturia]; and they loved not their lives unto the death. ... And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony [marturia] of Jesus Christ. (Revelation 12:11, 17) In Revelation 19:10 we find that John's "brethren" also had the marturia, or testimony of Jesus: ...I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony [marturia] of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony [marturia] of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. The marturia is here described as the gift of prophecy, which is given to testify about Jesus Christ. Here are some alternate readings of the last part of Revelation 19:10 The prophetic spirit proves itself by witnessing to Jesus. (New American Bible) Testimony to Jesus is the spirit which underlies Prophecy. (Weymouth New Testament) Those who bear testimony to Jesus are inspired like all the prophets. (New English Bible) The purpose of all prophecy and of all I have shown you is to tell about Jesus. (Living Bible) The last reference to marturia is found in Revelation 20:4: ...I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness [marturia] of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. This verse parallels Rev. 6:9. Again, the two reasons for martyrdom are given: The Word of God The witness [marturia] of Jesus. Throughout the New Testament we find a pattern of the "testimony of Jesus" referring to the believer's personal witness about Jesus Christ. Rather than being the prophetic utterances received from Jesus, the testimony of Jesus is the believer's personal testimony about Jesus. The "testimony of Jesus" is found in the writings of the New Testament, whose writers personally knew Christ and bore witness to Him. Furthermore, John tells us that the testimony of Jesus is found in the heart of all those who accept and believe in Jesus as the Son of God: He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness [marturia] in himself (1 John 5:10) Therefore, the "testimony of Jesus" cannot be used to uniquely identify the SDA Church as the remnant church of Bible prophecy. Revelation clearly teaches that John had the "testimony of Jesus" (Rev. 1:9), the martyrs had it (Rev. 6:9), and John's brethren had it (Rev. 19:10). None of these ever knew Ellen White, so it could not refer directly to her. Bible Truth about the Identity of Remnant Church The gift of prophecy is available to any church led by the Holy Spirit. However, the era of major prophets has ended. The ultimate revelation of the character of God was manifested in the Son of God and recorded in the gospels: God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son." (Heb. 1:1,2) The law and the prophets [were] until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. (Luke 16:16; also Matt. 11:13) There is not a single instance in the gospels where Jesus said that He was going to send prophets to His church to guide it. Instead, He warned about "false" prophets many times: Beware of false prophets... (Matt. 7:15) And many false prophets shall arise and deceive many... (Matt. 24:11) For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect. (Matt. 24:14) For false Christs and false prophets shall rise... (Mk 13:22) Jesus established a different order in the Christian church. Instead of speaking to His people indirectly through prophets, Jesus promised to speak to them directly through the Comforter: Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth...and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew [it] unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew [it] unto you. (John 16:13-15) The gift of prophecy is given to the Christian church for edification (1 Cor. 12:28; Eph. 4:11). However, in the New Testament, Apostles--not prophets--are the leaders of the church. In the New Testament church, Christians are instructed by the personal presence of God via the indwelling of the Spirit of God: But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. (1 John 2:27) Conclusion A number of churches claim the title "true remnant of God". While it may be flattering to regard one's church as the true remnant, there is no denomination that has a "corner" on the truth. Denominations are the creation of man. They are useful because they establish a structure, and an organization to further the work of God. However, we only dimly comprehend the truth of God. Because of man's imperfect understanding of God's ways, there are many different interpretations of "truth", resulting in the large number of denominations we see today. God has His true believers spread out in every religion. Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth" (John 14:6). A denomination can show a person the way, but it is not "the way." Jesus is the way. Likewise, a denomination can teach the truth, but it is not "the truth." Jesus is the truth. Therefore, any true believer who accepts Jesus as His Lord and Savior and is baptized for the remission of sins is part of the remnant church of God." " |
