| Author |
Message |
Agapeta
Registered user
Username: Agapeta
Post Number: 2
Registered: 4-2010
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 13, 2010 - 2:18 pm: |     |
Hi Christo,
Thanks for the welcome. I appreciate it.
Agapeta |
Agapeta
Registered user
Username: Agapeta
Post Number: 3
Registered: 4-2010
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 13, 2010 - 2:23 pm: | |
Hi Jeremy,
Thanks for the link. I have not finished reading it yet, but it looks very good. Is it OK if I copy and paste it into an email and print it out, or can I print it directly from the forum? I would like to supply it to those I think are open to it.
Cheers,
Agapeta |
Agapeta
Registered user
Username: Agapeta
Post Number: 4
Registered: 4-2010
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 13, 2010 - 2:43 pm: | |
Hi Colleen,
Thanks for the link! I am reading it now, and phew, SDA is worse than I thought, and I thought I knew a lot. The legalism is at least comparable to what I had been under in the cultic group I was in. Isn't it amazing when you are out and look back at what was keeping you prisoner? Praise God for His wonderful grace and truth.
Agapeta |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 8099
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 13, 2010 - 2:51 pm: | |
Agapeta, Welcome to FAF. I truly understand when you say SDAs are not brothers in Christ as they have so many cult like beliefs. You have done your homework.
I keep a pile of Ratzlaff's book, "The Truth about SDA Truth" in my glove compartment of my car and give it to anyone interested.
Diana L |
Agapeta
Registered user
Username: Agapeta
Post Number: 5
Registered: 4-2010
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 13, 2010 - 2:58 pm: | |
Hi Fearless Phil,
I like your name!
Thanks for the welcome. My story is long and complicated but I am sure you will recognize many elements in it since nearly everyone who gets involved in a cult or cultic/abusive church finds common ground with others in a similar situation.
I really would like to hear Richard Peifer's message/testimony on his SDA background, as this might be good to pass along to the pastor in my neighborhood who thinks SDA is a bunch of people who love Jesus but just worship on Sunday! What a fake front. Do they know what a misrepresentation this really is? I mean, do the SDAs know what a misrepresentation this is to outsiders?
I don't have ipod on my computer. The People to People ministry web site does not have the capability they used to have to listen to missed messages. and my financial situation stringently limits what I can spend. Does anyone have suggestions as to how I might access Peipher's talk about his SDA experience?
Agapeta |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 3216
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 13, 2010 - 3:07 pm: | |
Agapeta,
Here is the link to Peifer's sermon: http://www.realanswers.net/radio/desc/002770.html
It should play automatically. If it doesn't work, try the direct link here: http://www.realanswers.net/archive/Metro_091018.mp3
Jeremy |
Hec
Registered user
Username: Hec
Post Number: 970
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 13, 2010 - 3:49 pm: | |
Welcome to the forum, Agapeta.
Hec |
Agapeta
Registered user
Username: Agapeta
Post Number: 6
Registered: 4-2010
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 13, 2010 - 4:55 pm: | |
SOME OF MY STORY
I think it is interesting that I began to post in a thread about People to People ministry. The book, Classic Christianity, was essential to God's opening up to the truth of His grace and in beginning to free me from my cultic/abusive church group.
The group still exists and has many "clone" churches in the US and in other countries. It is Berachah Church in Houston TX. It was pastored by R.B.Thieme Jr. Now that he has passed away his son continues the teaching of his father.
This church presents itself as a Bible study "grace" church. The Bible study attracts people who want systematic teaching of the whole Word of God. What we got was the pastor's studies and his teachings, and lots of his opinions passed along as if they were "Bible doctrine" (one of the favorite vocabulary words of the special language invented to "make things clearer.").
God had clearly saved me while I was in high school, but I did not really understand the New Testament so in college sought teaching to become more knowledgeable.
In college back in 1967 I received my introduction to this pastor and his ministry from a boyfriend. The booklet he gave me seemed quite normal, being a name and claim the promises of God subject. I liked it and wrote in for more information. I got onto their teaching tapes, and as a "taper" (living too far away from the "mother church" to attend regularly) I became hooked into the program of Bible study, just as it was intended to catch people and keep them dependent upon "Colonel" Thieme.
We were told among many other things that we could not learn truth from God from reading any English Bible but only from listening to his teaching, as he was the world's best expert in Hebrew and Greek, and only he would tell us what the text "really said." He invented an extensive special vocabulary in his series' teaching so outsiders could not understand what was meant. That was the effect, not sure it was intended to begin with. It became extremely intricate and deadening. And it was this feature of his system that first got my attention after many years of study. All of a sudden, one day, I asked myself if these words were in the Bible. They were not. I asked myself if that meant the same thing as teaching things that were not in the Bible in the first place, and of course, the answer was Yes! This person set himself up as a pope and trained his followers in fear and dependence upon himself as the only teacher of truth from God. He told us if we left his teaching, God would punish us increasingly severely until we reached the dreaded "sin unto death." To put it plainly, this meant that if we left his teaching, God would kill us.
Not only that, we would be betraying our country because God was holding up the USA because of us in the group who were faithful to his teaching. Those of us who listened every day, no exceptions, and "took in Bible doctrine" (meaning his teaching of it) were what he called "the pivot" on which the country was resting, and if we stopped listening, the country would fall to the Communists (back when he first started, this was our big enemy; now it would be Islam and/or Socialists). The country would then suffer the "fifth cycle of discipline" meaning be conquered and taken captive like Israel was by Babylon. All the curses God promised Israel if she broke the Mosaic Covenant would then fall upon the USA because we left the truth.
There was much more fear mongering, but it would involve long winded explanations of the vocabulary that would be too complicated for this thread.
He had a peculiar version of "Christian maturity" which I finally concluded was false since nobody I knew ever really made it to the top level. He kept adding new "doctrinal breakthroughs" given him by the Holy Spirit for our benefit which made it even longer and harder to make it to the highest level of maturity, called "super grace", then "ultra Super Grace" and then something beyond even that, but I forget what it was called. It functioned like a carrot and stick system, only you never got the carrot! This is what I call legalism, but he called it a grace system. We were never allowed to speak of any problems with the teaching with other members and if you left, you became persona non grata and a "reversionist." If Thieme said it, I believed it. I never noticed the difference between what he was teaching and what the Bible actually said in context, because I was so busy taking notes of his lectures and taking in whatever he said to figure out that there was a difference. Typical cultic technique of brainwashing.
Toward the end of his ministry, he taught that "mature Christians only" received maximum rewards in heaven, thus they were the plantation owners being served by the "immature" and "reversionist"
Christians, the peons if you will. The peons lost all their rewards and ended up serving the "master mature Christians" mint juleps on the porches of their mansions there in heaven. The last straw for some people in that ministry was when Thieme leaned over the side of his pulpit and declared with a typical snarl, "Jesus doesn't love you; He tolerates you!"
An outright heresy Thieme (pronounced "theme") taught was on the Blood of Christ, which he said was not literally shed for our salvation. He said it was a figure, not a literal requirement and that scripture did not teach that the literal blood of Christ was shed for our salvation.
Nothing was ever said about Christ living His life in and thorough the Christian. I was early indoctrinated to believe that to be pleasing to God, I had to take the qualities God "gave" me and be in charge of using them and implementing them in my life, and that was my idea of the Christian life. This was the "application of Bible doctrine in the right lobe of the soul" according to Thieme (another very long Rube Goldberg type special definition of what the soul was like and how Bible doctrine was stored and processed in it) My personal relationship with Christ was simply and only one of sin/confess, sin/confess, sin/confess and living in fear of various bad things according to Thieme. When I first heard Bob George contradicting this, I did not believe it! Taking this away from me would take away every function and point of contact I had with God. What else was there to the Christian life than this? It was like pulling a rug out from under me to say that I was totally forgiven at the Cross and that Christ came to live in me and that that pleased God more than anything I could do by way of performance. But I kept listening until I finally got the point. Having been born again, I was a forgiven person forever. Nothing I could do or fail to do would change the permanent love and grace I had in Christ. Wow! It was like being born again all over again. Then one day I heard one of Bob's most special teachings on 1 John 1:9------and was blown out of the water by Scripture after Scripture contradicting the usual interpretation, and by Bob asking what are you going to do with all these Scriptures that plainly say the believer is totally forgiven at the Cross, and it becomes effective for him when he receives (trusts) Christ personally as his savior, who died in his place and rose to give him Christ as his life? I could only agree with the truth at that point, and thank God for it. Nobody and nothing can get me off that forgiveness I have in Christ any more. The heart of all cults and aberrant forms of Christianity is in controlling behavior and demanding performance and conformity to rules, and it is the beginning of true freedom in Christ to receive His total and permanent forgiveness. Praise God!
So I am delighted to find a group that appreciates the ministry of People to People and their effective correction of common mistaken teachings about forgiveness. This teaching I call a litmus test of a person's understanding of grace. If they believe they have to confess sins to receive God's forgiveness, they don't understand grace, and possibly don't understand the gospel of the grace of God which God gave the apostle Paul as the final gospel to preach to us today.
The congregation, and tapers by recorded messages, were taught as if they were this person's private platoon. He would yell and call out members of the congregation in person if they shifted their eyes a little too much in a way he did not like, or if they dropped their pencils, (MUST take detailed notes), or wiggled, etc, etc. One man was afraid to miss the lesson, so he came sick. He did not want to disturb the congregation by leaving, so he opened his brief case, vomited into it, then closed the lid and kept on taking notes. This tale was told in admiration of his dedication and I agreed with this until years after stopping my association with the group, when I realized how bad it was to create such fear that a person would be afraid to stay home sick and also to disturb the group by leaving to vomit in the bathroom!
The primary issue I came to disagree with was about forgiveness for the Christian. He taught that forgiveness was divided up into two parts: before salvation by grace through faith alone in Christ alone, and after salvation, when you had to ask forgiveness by confessing each and every sin to be forgiven. Failing this, you were "out of fellowship" with God, which meant in effect that God turned His back on you, would not hear your prayers, would not help you, and you were on your own till you confessed all known sins. )Somehow, we did not see the inconsistency of saying that "unknown" sins could be forgiven without confession but "known" ones could not.
Well, the issue of forgiveness is one thing that Classic Christianity gets crystal clear. I would browse in Christian book stores and thumb thorough that book and see what was said about forgiveness, and slam it shut, saying to myself that it was heresy and leave without buying it. I must have done this dozens of times before I finally bought the thing and read it. And when I finally did, I knew immediately it was the truth! As I said above, it took me a while longer to really let go the false teaching I had been a slave to about 1 John 1:9, but it was well worth it.
Like most cultists, the heavy burdens and stress of all the false teaching and twisted practices I had been under for nearly thirty years have taken their toll on body, mind and spirit. But I thank God for allowing me to survive to this point and to share what He has done in my life through His truth as found in His Word.
Cheerfully for the Truth,
Agapeta |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 8102
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 13, 2010 - 5:59 pm: | |
Agapeta, thanks for your story of your journey with Jesus. He is so awesome how He meets us right where we are and leads us to Him. Welcome to the large family of God.
Diana L |
Agapeta
Registered user
Username: Agapeta
Post Number: 7
Registered: 4-2010
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 13, 2010 - 7:35 pm: | |
Hi, Hec, and to Diana,
Thanks for your welcome and your appreciation for our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. I am listening to the Richard Peiffer message/testimony and can't wait to finish so I can comment here.
I must say that when I find friends to share with who know something of what I have been through, it is like a drink of cold water on a blistering hot, humid day. When you are in a cult, you at least have "the others" who believe as you do, though that is cold comfort. There was no comfort in the group I was in, no fellowship, and certainly no discussion of what was taught if you had a negative experience or comment or questioned what was taught.
It is very lonely coming out of such a situation. There is nobody here I can share with, and only occasionally do I meet folks online who have been where I have been. I deeply appreciate your hospitality to me and am excited about learning about where you have been, so I can help others in new ways and people from another problem group!
Cheers,
Agapeta |
Hec
Registered user
Username: Hec
Post Number: 972
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 13, 2010 - 7:43 pm: | |
This is a good place to start when one is feeling lonely just coming out of a cult or cultist organization. This is like a family. Sometimes we cry with each other, sometimes we fight with each other, sometimes we argue with each other, but most of the time we love each other.
Hec |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 11138
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 13, 2010 - 8:05 pm: | |
Agapeta, I totally know what you're describing. Leaving a cult is a unique experience in many ways...it takes time to debrief, and it takes time to rebuild a biblical worldview.
But God is faithful, and He is with us here.
Colleen |
Agapeta
Registered user
Username: Agapeta
Post Number: 8
Registered: 4-2010
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 13, 2010 - 8:34 pm: | |
After listening to Richard Peiffer's message, all I can say is WOW. It encouraged me so much to hear his testimony. I seem to be in the "empty" stage before God puts me into some kind of service, so please pray that I will hear what He is saying to me that He wants me to learn next. Thanks so much for calling this to my attention.
Agapeta |
Agapeta
Registered user
Username: Agapeta
Post Number: 9
Registered: 4-2010
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 13, 2010 - 8:43 pm: | |
Thanks, guys, for your encouraging words! I am so glad I found you. I am sure God is in it. And I thought all He had for me here was 'information' about the SDA. There is that, but much, much more.
Cheers,
Agapeta |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 1945
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 14, 2010 - 9:19 am: | |
Today's Gem
"The faith that fizzles before the finish was faulty from the start." --Adrian Rogers, former president of the Southern Baptist Convention
Dennis Fischer |
Skeeter
Registered user
Username: Skeeter
Post Number: 672
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Monday, April 19, 2010 - 10:43 pm: | |
another "gem" I got this from Sundays Parade magazine and is only a partial quote,, but this is the part that stayed with me.
"We're all infinite spiritual beings having a temporary human experience."
Wayne Dyer
I hadn't thought of my life in quite that way before... as an infinite spiritual being having a temporary human experience. :-)
Francie |
Agapeta
Registered user
Username: Agapeta
Post Number: 10
Registered: 4-2010
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 21, 2010 - 1:46 pm: | |
Hello friends,
Well, I have read the suggested web pages given me here in this thread to introduce me to some kind of organized understanding of SDA doctrine compared with the Biblical truth, and I have to tell you, it is at the least legalism with a capital L. It must be hellacious to live in the fear and guilt engendered by those teachings.
One thing that surprised me totally was the mention of Jesus as the Archangel Michael, and that that belief was shared with the Jehovah's Witnesses. I knew they believed that, but did not know the SDAs did, too.
Where on earth do they get that??
Thanks,
Agapeta |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 11154
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 21, 2010 - 11:52 pm: | |
Ummm--their prophet...who really is the organization's official interpreter of Scripture and "how things are". As much as they distance from this fact, it is nonetheless true. They will not renounce her or their unbiblical doctrines.
Also, JWs are related to Adventists. Founder Charles Taze Russell had an Adventist grandmother, and he took some of his understanding from his early Adventist exposure.
Colleen |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 1959
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, April 22, 2010 - 7:33 am: | |
Happy "Earth Day" to all! (smile) While Christians should be foremost as custodians or caretakers of this planet, I find that there is an increasing bent toward the non-human elements in this life. For example, a client of mine told me that he has reserved $15,000.00 in his Will for someone to take care of his cats in the event of his death. A magnet on his refrigerator says "Cats are people too." Another magnet on the same refrigerator says "I am God."
Many people are more concerned about living "Green" than about their eternal destiny. The most zealous environmentalists seem to have little interest in Christianity. They are more concerned about what liquid solution you clean your windows with than in their religious legacy and/or eternal destiny. Truly, this facet of societal secularization has resulted in the emptying of Christian churches in many countries today. In short, the Green zeal has replaced the Christian zeal in many hearts.
Dennis Fischer |
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