| Author | Message | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 2065 Registered: 5-2007  |
On the Sabbath day Jesus healed the invalid at the Pool of Bethesda by telling him to "Get up, take up your bed, and walk", John 5:8. The Pharisees were upset because the man was doing something not permitted on the Sabbath. When they found out who had healed him, they were upset with Jesus for also breaking the Sabbath and then became more upset when he claimed his authority for doing so by being the Son of God. This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God, (John 5:18 ESV). Jesus completes his response with these words: You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life. I do not receive glory from people. But I know that you do not have the love of God within you. I have come in my Father's name, and you do not receive me. If another comes in his own name, you will receive him. How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and do not seek the glory that comes from the only God? Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father. There is one who accuses you: Moses, on whom you have set your hope. For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?" (John 5:39-47 ESV) Adventist theology teaches the very same error as the Pharisees that Jesus was confronting. Looking to the Law of Moses for eternal life instead of the Messiah he was pointing towards. Fearless Phil (Message edited by philharris on April 11, 2010) | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 8095 Registered: 3-2004  |
Thank you Phil. That is so true. Diana L | ||
| Jdpascal Registered user Username: Jdpascal Post Number: 210 Registered: 10-2003 |
I believe that this is what Paul was refering to in Galatians. He called it "falling from Grace" in reference to a believer who looked away from Christ to look to the law. Others refuse to look to Christ in the first place. | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1682 Registered: 6-2006  |
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've always understood (from my SDA relatives) that the point of that story was that Jesus was healing someone, so he wasn't really breaking the Sabbath. However in reading that passage, he was in trouble for breaking the Sabbath because he instructed the man to carry his bed. Am I understanding that right? Of course, I realize that's not even the point of the story! Also, my SDA's NEVER call it the "Law of Moses", but "God's Law". Which I'm guessing is why they get past Jesus' words there? Leigh Anne | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 2067 Registered: 5-2007 |
Lannie, Tell your SDA family to consider what Jesus says about himself: But Jesus answered them, "My Father is working until now, and I am working." (John 5:17 ESV) Jesus said he was working and working is not resting. Futhermore, he did not deny he was breaking their Sabbath laws. And another thing, when Jesus says "There is one who accuses you: Moses" what other than the law of Moses could he possibly be refering to? Fearless Phil (Message edited by philharris on April 11, 2010) | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 2073 Registered: 5-2007 |
Lannie, How about having your SDA family read on to chapter seven: Has not Moses given you the law? Yet none of you keeps the law. Why do you seek to kill me?" The crowd answered, "You have a demon! Who is seeking to kill you?" Jesus answered them, "I did one work, and you all marvel at it. Moses gave you circumcision (not that it is from Moses, but from the fathers), and you circumcise a man on the Sabbath. If on the Sabbath a man receives circumcision, so that the law of Moses may not be broken, are you angry with me because on the Sabbath I made a man's whole body well? Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment." (John 7:19-24 ESV) When Jesus was speaking of 'The Law' he was certainly referring to all of the law decreed from Mt. Sinai. It included all of the Law Moses wrote in the first five books of the bible. Fearless Phil | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1683 Registered: 6-2006 |
Phil, I will share that with my husband next time it comes up. He agreed with me once when I told him that no one can keep the law, but I've always had the feeling that Adventists think they get credit for trying. (Kind of like, "it's the thought that counts") Jesus can absolutely refer the law to Moses, but since Ellen did not, then it's not there. Gosh, I sound like Debbie Downer this morning!  L.A. | ||
| 8thday Registered user Username: 8thday Post Number: 1524 Registered: 11-2007  |
Yes.. there is definitely the attitude that you have to "do your best" to keep the law - that if you aren't at least trying as hard has you can, God is disappointed with you. I still struggle with feeling a need to measure up for His favor, even though I have assurance in my salvation. Read this today: John 12:48 The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day. Adventism teaches we will be judged by the Law - or are at this very moment - being judged by the Law. Jesus teaches us that if we trust Him and believe His words, we have passed from death to life and will not come into judgment - and if we do not believe, we see here we are judged by HIS Words He spoke, not by the Law of Moses. Jesus is the line in the sand between God and hell - nothing and no one else. I see many Christians that have their eyes on a Law - not just SDA. There were 3 crosses for a reason. It was not a coincidence or just a pointless part of the story. One criminal believed, and one scoffed, and Jesus was the question. This was the pivot of the entire history of man and of our reconciliation with God. I wish there was a way I could even express the magnitude and completeness of that. Sondra | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11128 Registered: 12-2003  |
Lannie, I think you are right about the SDA assumption that "trying" earns them "credit"--although they would never say that. And you're spot on that Jesus did break the Sabbath according to Levitical law. Sondra, you're so right about the magnitude of what Jesus did. It's HUGE! Colleen | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 810 Registered: 2-2008  |
I believe that most adventists think they do keep the 10 commandments but they don't want to admit that because of 1John 1:8 where John writes that if we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves. Here's a quote from the book "Ten Commandments Twice Removed."
I may be wrong here, but in my experience, most adventists believe that sin is only counted as sin if it is "externally" committed. For example, it's not a sin to think about lying, it's only sin when you actually lie. It's not a sin to think about working on the sabbath, it's only a sin when you actually work on the sabbath. So it's OK to think about your schedule for the following week, plan it out, organize your time, etc. on the sabbath... just don't actually sit down and write out your plan for work on the sabbath. Sondra~ ... love your thought on the 3 crosses. It is complete... God leaves nothing out! vivian | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 637 Registered: 5-2002 |
Vivian, you are absolutely correct about the SDA view of sin. "Sin" is defined as individual behaviors that you can put in a list (or a Recording Angel can enter in a Heavenly record book). The orthodox, Gospel view of "sin" is organic, utter depravity that corrupts every moment we live and breathe. Even our "righteous" deeds are filthy rags because we are fundamentally corrputed at the core. Amazing grace, that can save a wretch like me! | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 638 Registered: 5-2002 |
Furthermore, this concept feeds into the SDA doctrine that Jesus had sinful lusts and struggled with temptation to sin, but simply resisted through sheer willpower and continuous connection to God. | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1684 Registered: 6-2006 |
Is this attitude towards sin related to the spirit = breath idea? In other words how could "breath" sin? I know of an SDA (male) who caused an awful lot of strife in his marriage with a porn addiction. He withdrew from his wife as a result. They had horrible problems and nearly broke up. He didn't understand what the big deal was because he didn't physically cheat on his wife with a real woman. I imagine a lot of guys (SDA or not) have that attitude, but to me it's clear that he did cheat in his heart. But hey, if the guy is "keeping" Sabbath then I guess he's covered, right? Leigh Anne | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 639 Registered: 5-2002 |
Grace_alone, I am not aware of any direct connection between the concepts in SDA theology but I find your idea compelling. I think it has more to do with watering down the requirements of God to something that can conceivably be achieved (i.e., stop committing listed sinful acts) rather than something that leaves us desperately hopeless (i.e., sinful by nature). | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11136 Registered: 12-2003 |
Leigh Anne, even though Adventists don't think about the connection you made, I have come to believe it is directly related. Because Adventists don't perceive sin to be a literal dead spirit in a mortal (doomed) body, because they don't believe their spirits can be literally brought to life by the Holy Spirit and thus bring eternal life to the essential identity of the person while he still inhabits the doomed body that awaits glorification at the resurrection, Adventists are left perceiving sin as physical weakness that can be corrected by will power and discipline with the help of the Holy Spirit's power. Because they don't understand their sin to be literal spiritual death, they think of "accepting Jesus" as putting themselves in a position of being able to access God's power to help them with sin. Instead of seeing that the Holy Spirit literally indwells them and brings them to life, giving them a new heart, they understand that God writes the Ten Commandments on their heart, so they have the internal prodding of law and guilt driving them to obedience. The Christian receives the life of Jesus in His heart, not the Ten Commandments. God Himself convicts him of sin, righteousness, and judgment, according to Jesus, and the spiritual life in him gives him completely new attitudes and desires and potential and power. The Adventists just sees himself as having requirements written on his heart and having "access" to God's power to help him literally keep the law. The Adventist has no concept of literal spiritual death that must be raised to literal life—and that the new life a person receives in Jesus is literally eternal. He himself becomes eternally alive. All that is not on their radar screen! Colleen | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 661 Registered: 12-2007 |
Colleen, I don't think anyone could possibly explain it any more clearly than you just did. Francie | ||
| Nowisee Registered user Username: Nowisee Post Number: 363 Registered: 5-2009 |
Yes, Colleen! And it kind of boils down to letting yourself "trust" the Holy Spirit to guide you instead of having those "black & white" 10 laws. I remember that kind of being a scary thought..."How can I trust a 'force' I can't see?!" Now I know better. | ||
| Believer247 Registered user Username: Believer247 Post Number: 115 Registered: 3-2009 |
Colleen, you are so right :"they think of "accepting Jesus" as putting themselves in a position of being able to access God's power to help them with sin." Yes, that is exactly what they think. | ||
| Cindy Registered user Username: Cindy Post Number: 828 Registered: 7-2000 |
Sondra, I like what you wrote; yes, on the other two crosses, the question to those men was what do you do with Jesus?...what do you believe about Jesus of Nazareth? He alone is the final Question and He alone is the Answer. grace, cindy | ||
| Cindy Registered user Username: Cindy Post Number: 829 Registered: 7-2000 |
Colleen, ...in much agreement with your post! I've many discussions with Adventists on what exactly is written on your heart in the New Covenant. Adventists do believe it is the exact words of the Ten Commandments, which to them is the express will of God. This belief justifies their theology of Saturday/Sabbath observance and so, their strange mixture of the Old with the New...a belief which is really no Gospel at all! grace, cindy | ||
| Psalm107v2 Registered user Username: Psalm107v2 Post Number: 636 Registered: 10-2008  |
Phil, Thanks for this post. I remember being an SDA and thinking "we're not like the Pharisees". But the sad truth is with the veil of the SDA church blinds people to the very ONE to whom the "law and the testimonies" pointed to. Enoch |
