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Agapetos
Registered user
Username: Agapetos
Post Number: 1948
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2010 - 11:53 pm: |     |
Sondra, thank you for that story about the Indian pastor! God is AWESOME! |
Agapetos
Registered user
Username: Agapetos
Post Number: 1949
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2010 - 11:58 pm: | |
One anecdote I read years ago (and which I wish I had photocopied) was in a book about Native American history. In the years of Spanish Catholic missions in what is today California, the church fathers were often very discouraged and disgusted by the Native Americans particularly in the matter of "giving". The Natives just did not "give" at church. What they put in the plate was little, nothing or next to nothing. The author noted that the church at that time simply did not realize that the Native Americans in that area were already sharing their things with one another and if one was in need, the others would help that person. The church understood "giving" as meaning "giving into the church", while the Natives understood it as meaning "giving to one another" and giving to the needy.
Sometimes the "rocks" really do cry out, don't they!
(But do the children of the kingdom hear? Aren't we doing the same thing today?) |
Agapetos
Registered user
Username: Agapetos
Post Number: 1950
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, March 13, 2010 - 12:55 am: | |
Hi again Snewbie,
I need to ask if you've completed the worksheet studies I posted above. The main reason I ask is because if you do, then a lot of what you've written is actually already taken care of.
Example:
quote:Interesting. I wasnt really implying that a "tithing"(10%) was necessary, but that whatever way the levites where taken care of, there is a similar spiritual analog to that today for those who make it a full time duty to spread the gospel.
Points to consider:
1) Biblically speaking, the Levites are not analogous to ministers of the gospel. The duties of the Levites were taking care of the physical temple, not the spreading or maintaining of Judaism. In Judaism during Christ's time and in Judaism today, a "rabbi" (a teacher) was a person from any of the tribes of Israel, not merely from the tribe of Levi. And as in Christ's day, today's "rabbis" are not supported by tithes.
2) Would John, Peter, Paul and the rest of the apostles be considered people who were on "full time duty to spread the gospel"? They did not receive or collect tithes. While people gave them gifts (Paul thanks the Philippians in particular for the gifts they sent him), it appears that they did not actively go around asking for gifts or including it in their preaching in any way. The large passage on "giving" in 2nd Corinthians 8 & 9 is not about giving to "the ministry", but giving to help saints who were in need (likely in Jerusalem).
3) In other words, the apostles simply did not compare themselves to "Levites". This should be obvious considering that there were still clearly-identifiable literal flesh-and-blood Levites living throughout Judea during the time of the early church! While Paul said that the minister should be able to receive food from his altar, all the same in Hebrews 13 the altar is spoken of again and the food is for everyone. The context and prior verses in 1st Corinthians 9 show Paul's meaning: that the minister is not meant to deprive himself of anything in order to preach the gospel. Preachers of the gospel do not need to be celibate, super-poor, or refrain from accepting gifts.
quote:Here's the question you gotta ask yourself(between you and God). Is the proffessional Christian(pastor, etc) that you are looking at worth his wages? Does he/she actually act as an ambassador of Christ? Do they spend their time preaching the gospel? Would the gospel be better served if they had to get a regualr job for a living?
That indeed is the question. But for a different reason that you're asking it. Because in modern terms, Peter, John, Paul and all the rest of them were unpaid clergy. They all worked. They accepted gifts, but they also worked with their own hands so that they could have food to eat. And they were really hard on people who didn't work, too! Paul said it as a rule, "If anyone will not work, he shall not eat." The early Christian text called the Didache (from about the turn of the 1st century, rightly not considered canonical) had rules almost too strict in this manner:
quote:Traveling ministers were to be received but they could stay one day or two; if they stayed three days, they were to be considered charlatans or false prophets. When leaving they should take nothing with them but bread; if they asked for money, they were false prophets. All travelers who came in the name of the Lord were to be received, but only for two or three days; they were required to exercise their trade, if they had one, or at least could not be idle. Anyone who would not work was considered a Christemporos (a "Christmonger") -- one who makes a gain out of the name of Christ.
(paraphrased from Wikipedia)
Basically while not canonical, this shows (in tandem with the New Testament) that the system of "paid clergy" we know and consider to be fundamental to the ministry of the gospel today simply did not exist during the time of the early church any more than "church" existed as a building.
It sounds radical, and really it is. The gospel is radical, much more radical than we are comfortable with today! So what to do? That is really between you and God! What do you do when you find out that the institution and system we have today is not only not biblical, but that the early church actually flourished without it?
For myself, I have found that the only thing to do is to ask when to give. Ask your heart and ask the Holy Spirit (and give the Spirit the final say, because God's heart is greater than our hearts and He knows best when it is "money" that someone needs or when it is something else!). The New Covenant Christian is under no biblical obligation to support paid ministers or church buildings.
This, of course, does not mean that it is bad to support them, either! God may impress you to support your local building or paid minister. If your heart wants to and God leads you to, then by all means do it! But to require it of other Christians---any Christian---is not biblical. The "church" is not a building but is people. All of His people are priests and ministers unto the Lord. If the apostles who turned the world upside down could do it without being paid for it full-time, then probably we can, too.
Snewbie, what you said about your former pastor helping people was really cool. And it's an example of what I've just talked about -- that if you feel moved to give, do it. But it is not required of others to do the same.
quote:I believe the verse I quoted is the NT spirit of tithing and no discussion of the subject would be complete without it.
For the reasons I've just stated briefly, the verse you quoted simply does not fit into a biblical study of "tithing" except to show that the modern church has erroneously confused it with the biblical subject of tithing, which was a different matter entirely. Moreover, it is not the "New Testament spirit of tithing" because tithing is not taught in the New Testament (remember that Jewish Christians at that time would have still been giving their tithe to literal Levites and to the poor -- not to the "church").
However, what I think you mean is simply the spirit of helping out, helping out your ministers, etc. And you have taken that to be the "spirit of tithing". I think that many Christians do believe that is the proper motivation and spirit of giving tithe. And I can't say that they are wrong for feeling that way -- because that is what they've been taught. In the very same way, there are Christians who believe they need to refrain from "work" on Sunday (or Saturday) because they believe it is supposed to be a holy time between God and themselves.
In these cases there are people who are doing such things because they honestly believe God wants them to, and in fact they would be sinning to go against their consciences. But it is important for all Christians to eventually be lovingly brought to understand the fullness of Christ -- that the Sabbath was a shadow of Jesus, and He is now our true Sabbath rest, today. And in the same way, it is important for all Chrsitians to eventually be lovingly brought to understand that God has called all Christians to be "full-time ministers" while still working at their jobs in the "world" -- just like the apostles of the early church.
And perhaps most importantly, it is important for all Christians to lovingly be brought to understand that "giving" in the New Testament ought to mean giving to the needy instead of giving to our traditional institutions.
Because while we have been taking up "tithes" and "offerings" for ourselves & our buildings for so many, many years, Christ has been waiting out in the streets for us as the all-too-often forgotten "least of these". Ironically, the original OT Law's "tithe" commands included giving straight to the needy, but today "Christian tithing" has completely cut that part out of the OT Law and applied "tithe" almost exclusively to its buildings and paid ministers (neither of which existed during the NT times). I find this sad and sickening. That Orthodox Jews who tithe give it exclusively to charity is downright shameful to Christianity.
I need to add that while I've written quite a lot here, Snewbie, it's not all directed at you. There are things I've mentioned here which I do not think you knew about. I've gone ahead and typed about them, however, but really to understand what I'm saying it would be good to print out the worksheets I put above and grab your Bible. And a cup of coffee. 
Bless you in Jesus!
Ramone |
Indy4now
Registered user
Username: Indy4now
Post Number: 771
Registered: 2-2008
| | Posted on Saturday, March 13, 2010 - 8:42 am: | |
you had to throw coffee in there Ramone? ha! Thanks for taking the time to put these worksheets together.
I need to go grab my coffee... see ya later!
vivian |
Snewbie
Registered user
Username: Snewbie
Post Number: 20
Registered: 2-2010
| | Posted on Saturday, March 13, 2010 - 5:09 pm: | |
Thanks a lot. Ya I need to go through them, and then if I have ?s, I'll ask. TY |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 6114
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, March 13, 2010 - 7:14 pm: | |
Some things Ramone said made me remember the fire truck story.
I was attending this small church in a small town, they worshiped, they prayed, but the Holy Spirit anointed me to write this story and give it to them at the church.
Needless to say, I wasn't making friends fast.
Here is the story of the fire truck, you have to translate it to the church.
The Brand New Fire Truck
Once there was a small farming and fishing community and it grew slowly over the years for it was ringed in by the mountains on the one side and the great river on the other and as it slowly grew folks began to start businesses and it became a small town with buildings side by side.
Now the people had a faithful mayor in this town and one day he looked out over the town and said to him self “We must have a fire truck in case there is a fire in our town” and so he began conducting bake sales and other community activities to raise money to build a fire station and finally the day came when he went out and purchased a beautiful fire truck and presented it to the people, instructing them that they must take very, very good care of it for it was the only one of its kind.
And so the mayor appointed a few good folk as fireman to watch over the town and to occupy the fire station which was situated on a gradual slope over looking the town, so the few good folk did occupy that fire station with the shiny new and well equipped truck, they carefully wound the new hoses and day after day they would take soft cloth and polish the chrome and brass, the gauges sparkled, the red paint glowed and even the brass end of the hoses glowed like freshly smelted gold.
One fateful day in the back corner of a store where the store owner carelessly threw oily rags, spontaneous combustion caused the store to catch fire unknown to the careless store owner and the fire began to sweep through the building picking up it’s speed of burning as it went, now this fire was merciless as it consumed every thing in its path, leaping to the next building leaving nothing but useless ash and gnarled and twisted metal behind.
And so the alarm sounded and the cry went out “The city is burning, the city is burning”!! and the appointed fireman heard the cry as they scrubbed and polished from their place in the fire station situated on the gradual slope over looking the town, but they said to one another “We have been appointed to take care of this truck” and so they went on carefully polishing every detail.
Finally the smoke billowed over the city and the cries of pain and anguish and torture rose up with the black smoke as the city burned, the fire growled and leapt and blazed as it consumed every thing in its path, while the appointed fireman polished and watched from the fire station situated on a gradual slope overlooking the town.
In many cases we have built our churches, placing them in a strategic spot, we go to church, worship, sing, pay or give the tithe, or even more than the tithe, while the communities burn around us. They cry out in pain, and we do not hear them inside our wall's.
Ramone, thank you for taking the time to teach, thank you for reminding me of where I need to be, not that I haven't been...in my communities, but I needed the reminder.
I was getting all out of whack, and what you said sort of set my bones.
The fire truck story was a sad indictment for that little church and many churches like it.
I hope I didn't pull attention off your thread, because that was not my intention.
We best be finding out what God wants, not what our buildings demand of us, because we are Gods appointed 'Fireman'.
River |
Agapetos
Registered user
Username: Agapetos
Post Number: 1951
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, March 14, 2010 - 1:56 am: | |
Thank you, River. That was very prophetic. It is His heart more than I can even realize. |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 6115
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, March 14, 2010 - 8:40 am: | |
You're right Ramone, it was a prophetic word. And you said the secret word,'the heart of god.'
You said also, "Because while we have been taking up "tithes" and "offerings" for ourselves & our buildings for so many, many years, Christ has been waiting out in the streets for us as the all-too-often forgotten "least of these". And you're right on brother.
We can be sitting in our churches Sunday after Sunday, and giving God praises throughout the week (as well we should) and still miss the heart of God, thinking all the while we are doing great works for him.
There's nothing wrong with having buildings to meet in, the cities are packed, and there is a lot of people to meet together.
We can pay tithes or not pay tithes, sing or not sing, but whatever we do, as long as it's confined within those walls....well...you know the answer to that as well as I do.
But tell me bro...why is it that when I give a prophetic word of comfort or encouragement they eat it up and say thank you River, but then when I give a prophetic word from the heart of God for the poor, the lost, the dieing and the hurting they want to hang me on the nearest lamp pole?
Can you explain that? Well...they can shoot all the messengers they want, but I'm telling you brother, we can go down there and be penny-costal or be Bapteesers, or lutheranians or whatever and think just because God blesses our hearts when we bless him and give him praises, that we have the heart of God and be far off.
Just because he blesses us ain't no sign we are doing what he wants us to be doing!
After we're blessed and revived we are supposed to pass it out to the poor, the down trodden and as you say, the all too forgotten 'least of these'.
But here we are! Sitting there getting our blessing, Getting saved every Sunday, wondering whether to give a tenth or a tooth, when what he wants is us!
Man, he ain't asking us to give what we ain't got, he's asking us to give what we have got!
I may be nothing more than squeezing a lonely aging widowed mothers hand that you meet and listen to for a minute at the mail box.
Or it may be handing out a 'tater', you know about 'taters' don't you brother?
Well...I'm getting all exited again aren't I?
River |
8thday
Registered user
Username: 8thday
Post Number: 1515
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 23, 2010 - 6:59 am: | |
Next week, our pastor will be preaching on tithing. I SOOOO want to give him a copy of your study Ramone. sigh... But his heart is not one to manipulate, and this church really has a heart for the community, so I don't mind people being encouraged to give to it.
River, I think one sign of someone operating prophetically is there be rocks flying at his head. Takes boldness to speak those things when God puts them on your heart and asks you to give it to others..
This story reminds me of another church, situated in a poor part of a city - but it wasn't poor when the church was organized. The neighborhood has changed, but the people inside have not. The head elder advised the pastor to start parking in the rear of the building during the week because too many people were coming to ask for help. He was afraid for the safety of the pastor, I guess. ?? It sickened me to hear it. They put invitations on their sign for the seasonal cantatas, which I'm sure they believed would be a great blessing to the drug addicts, alcoholics, and prostitutes on the street. Sometimes a straggler from the local area would wander in, wander out, and never return. They never came back. I sat in that church just as handicapped as the rest of them - totally at a loss to know what to do, but my heart was breaking and theirs did not seem to be. Instead we heard about "the losers" at the school where one of their sons attended... you know, kids with divorced parents. I'm telling you, we have much to answer for, and I am ready to stop polishing the stupid truck and ask God to put some gas in it! Thanks River for that story!
Sondra |
Agapetos
Registered user
Username: Agapetos
Post Number: 1952
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 24, 2010 - 9:56 am: | |
Hi Sondra,
Pray and ask God if you should give it to the pastor or not. He will let you know if it's something He wants you to share with the pastor or not.
If the pastor does not have a manipulative heart, the emphasis in the study on helping the community might speak to him. But again, ask God about that.
Bless you in Jesus!
Ramone |
8thday
Registered user
Username: 8thday
Post Number: 1521
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, March 25, 2010 - 12:04 pm: | |
Yes, I did some, and it just doesn't seem right at the moment. |
Agapetos
Registered user
Username: Agapetos
Post Number: 1953
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, March 27, 2010 - 7:36 am: | |
God is good! |
Pastor2move
Registered user
Username: Pastor2move
Post Number: 11
Registered: 8-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, March 27, 2010 - 7:10 pm: | |
Hi Everyone,
Tithing is based on the old covenant equation, which is always about the minimum. What is the least that I have to do to get what I want from God? It is performance based. The new covenant is about the maximum, not just 10 percent but 100 percent. God wants all that I have and am, and he wants me to love Him for more than His blessings. He wants me to love Him for who He is. I was taught to tithe so God would materially bless me based on Malachi 3, but the new covenant calls me to accept by faith all that is mine in Christ and give all in return. That means giving to any need I may encounter and know that it is God who is giving in me of His own. Where does that leave giving in the institutional church? |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 1933
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, March 28, 2010 - 10:15 am: | |
Christian stewardship concerns itself with more than just giving of a person's material resources. It includes giving yourself, your time, and your talent in service to the Lord. The Gospel breeds generosity wherever it takes root. With Spirit-led giving, the Christian no longer yearns for the law of Moses to finance the Great Commission.
Dennis Fischer |
Agapetos
Registered user
Username: Agapetos
Post Number: 1966
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Friday, April 02, 2010 - 12:49 am: | |
Facebook version finally posted up!
http://www.facebook.com/notes/ramone-romero/christian-tithing-a-worksheet-study/376281361126 |
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