| Author | Message | ||
| Free2dance Registered user Username: Free2dance Post Number: 6 Registered: 2-2010 |
I am in a conversation with an SDA woman on an SDA thread. This is her last reply to me. Can someone help me provid support for this? I do not know EGW very well. "1) While unpacking your box of tricks did you happen to come across any evidence for your claims above? (arian roots of Adventisim) We would like to see the Fundamental Beliefs of the SDA church cited verbatim for your views to be clarified from the fog. 2) Demonstrate the so called AC (anti-christ) spirit you have in mind. (I mentioned this in relationship to the denial of Christ being God) 3) Are you suggesting the only alternative to Arianism you claim above is the Triune Trinity? | ||
| 8thday Registered user Username: 8thday Post Number: 1519 Registered: 11-2007  |
I found an overview once of the Arian roots written out by someone at Andrews actually. Don't know if I can find it again. It's NO secret - and they don't try to hide it. It's there, but many members may not know of it. to me - an antichrist spirit is anything that seeks to make anything else (good or bad) equal or greater to the work of Jesus Christ. But that's probably not an official definition. I just have seen that happen so much, not just in Adventism. Love the venom with which they discuss these things. | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 547 Registered: 7-2005 |
That's a stupid request because you're disputing the christological position of SDAC at a time when the church has no official FB statements. The woman is crassly ignorant or is trying to deliberately deceive others regarding the truth about the arian roots of SDA Church. You can find a book written by a SDA from Andrews, E.A. Gane at this link. Eventually explore other articles on that site. You'll find informations that you can use.
No, I'm suggesting that muslim monotheism may be quite OK. You got the point. Gabriel | ||
| Free2dance Registered user Username: Free2dance Post Number: 9 Registered: 2-2010 |
1 John 4:1-3 Test the Spirits " Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God:every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already." Is it fair to say that Arianisim is a form of the spirit of the antichrist as the Bible defines it? | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3195 Registered: 10-2004 |
Yes, because Arians are not confessing Jesus Christ--they are confessing a different Jesus. See 2 Corinthians 11:4. According to Romans 10:9, one must confess that Jesus is Lord (YHWH--the one true God) in order to be confessing Jesus. And Jesus Himself said in John 8:24 that unless you believe that He is God (the I AM), you will not be saved. Jeremy | ||
| Free2dance Registered user Username: Free2dance Post Number: 10 Registered: 2-2010 |
I responded to her and she came back with some stuff I cannot understand at all. I will try this one more time with her. I know so little about EG White I don't know how to see what she is trying to tell me. If any of you can help, Id be greatful. Otherwise Ill let this one go and just pray for her. She is replying to a portion of my questions to her: Addenda "1) can you show me in the Word of God where it says that the Lord is being vindicated to the other worlds by watching this great controversy unfold? 2) Can you show me in the word where it says that there is an ongoing judgement in heaven where God's work was not completed at the cross? 3) Can you show me in the Word where it says that the day you worship on will be the final test of who belongs to God and who does not? 4) Can you show me in the Word where it says that in the end of times God will remove His presence from the earth and we will stand on our own to prove whether we are worthy to enter into heaven? 5) Can you show me in the word where it says that we will not recieve the seal of God until our character is perfect without blemish? 6) Can you show me in the word where it says that it is our own effort with the "help" of Christ that will bring us into right being with God? You cannot because it is not there. It is all EGW. 7) The same woman who said it is a sin to say you are saved. etc " Addenda 1) Dan 7:9-10 - what was decided in the Heavenly Assize and who are wathcers to concur with the decision? If you dont know does that make your doubt correct? 2) Heb 9:12 RSV with Heb 8:5 concerning the type. 3) The great final test is about buying and selling.(Rev 13:15). The preceding warning for this test is about receiving the mark or worshiping the image of the beast prior to the suggestion noted in 13:14. How do you know your not now? Your comments above and use of various apologetic pages indicate you are! Additionally, the First Angel of Rev 14 heralds to worship Him who made. How come? Where does God say your saved in sin and sinning when the bride is meant to be attired in a robe of rightoeusness. How is this robe placed upon God's people? If you dont know - how come? Where does it say in the Bible you are sealed by God in sin either. DOnt work like that. 4) Read carefully ROmans 8. When was the last time you did this? 5) The character is the reflection of Christ. Where does the Bible say God seals His own in sin and an un-renewed character when flesh and blood cannot enter the Kingdom of God?(John 3) How does God prepare a people in the last generation who satisfy God's objective of the Everlasting Gospel as noted in Rev 14:12 and conveyed in Dan 7 with Rev 14:7? What about Isa 40 perhaps? What about they who are described as "overcoming even as Jesus overcame" in 3:21. Is this a folly of being a servant of righteousness? Join the dots and check out what is the specific attribution of the Bride in chapter 19 as well as Isa 26:2 etc 6) Heb 12:4 cf 2 Cor 6:1 in light of EPh 2:8-9. 7) What claims did the publican who stood next to the Pharisee ever make about being 'saved'.? Luke 18:13 ff --- Conclusion - you have a lot of Bible to discover than sitting at the feet of and recommending Bible apologetic sites. EGW even said God will have a people who maintain the Bible and the Bible only an warned of the Omega of apostasy that is flourishing within Adventism. | ||
| Free2dance Registered user Username: Free2dance Post Number: 11 Registered: 2-2010 |
She also posted this: "in fact the formal position of the SDA Church in 1872 published for the first time the churches position on God. Check this out. Check again your claims the Trinity is the true view on God. God has nothing to do with the man of sin. Be apprised ... both the Trinity (now in Adventism and Arian belief are found in the Catechism. If possible than relying on the claims of the web sites you cherish. They are all endorsing in various ways papal form of dogma which has wheedled its way in Adventism anyhow. Adventism was exposed way back in the 50's by the Evangelicals [Barnhouse and Martin] for being a cultic form of Christianity. Again do your homework much better than suggesting its future... for the ministerial leadership made many changes to alter the perception and changed the doctrines of the church. So your facts are wide of reality." Here is a link to the site if anyone is interested in jumping in: http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/seventh-day-adventist/TEKBB3I528V6E8Q5K/p2 | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 8066 Registered: 3-2004  |
That person either is not an English speaking person or does not know how to put things in writing in an organized fashion. I will pray for this person. Diana L | ||
| Free2dance Registered user Username: Free2dance Post Number: 12 Registered: 2-2010 |
Ya, I give up. I cry uncle. =) We are definately speaking 2 different languages, and I don't just mean English and something else. I have had enough evil comments hurled at me for the day. lol, I guess my work is done. Im going to go play with my children. =) | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 8067 Registered: 3-2004 |
What I did when writing on CARM when the sdas just seemed not to understand, I would write that I am leaving them to God and what they believe to God. That usually stopped them nicely. In fact one sda minister thought I treated him nicely. I would not argue. Just told him what and why I believed and left it with God. Diana L | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 8068 Registered: 3-2004 |
Free2dance, it is not you they are hurling those comments at, it is Jesus Christ. They just do not know that. Do not take anything they say personally. Very few adventists likes it when another leaves the sda church. They just cannot wrap their brain around the fact that we leave for theological reasons. Don't forget that 2 Cor 2:14-17 talks about the veil over the eyes of those who read Moses. That is what their problem is, They are focused on Moses and the 10 C rather then Jesus and His resurrection. All we can really do is pray and pray and pray and pray some more for them. Our awesome God will do the rest. We cannot change them, only God can. Diana L | ||
| Bobalou Registered user Username: Bobalou Post Number: 70 Registered: 2-2005 |
Hi Diana my Christian friend, I was lurking and noticed you mistakenly wrote 2 Cor 2 instead of 2 Cor 3. Just wanted to let you all know that I do pay attention. Keep up the great work. Dr. Patti posted a truly great post on CARM today. SDAs think that formers are attacking, rude, out to get them monsters because we differ from what they believe and are willing to express the real truth. Her insight is so great. We all should read her thoughts. http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthread.php?5826-What-is-this-thing-called-Love Bob | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 8069 Registered: 3-2004 |
Yes, I realized this morning I gave the wrong chapter in 2 Cor. Thanks for correcting it. I read Dr Patti's thread on CARM. I am so glad she wrote it. I recommend all to go read it also. Diana L | ||
| Free2dance Registered user Username: Free2dance Post Number: 13 Registered: 2-2010 |
While I was posting on this page a questioning SDA asked some questions about Sabbath. She was extremely receptive and greatful for what I shared with her. I encouraged her to come here to this forum. I hope she does. Then,once again this other person came on and began to say I was not of God but was of the Nicolatians which God hates. They quoted Malachi. They shamed me if I had to go to anyone else to understand this portion of the Bible. But, lol, here I am. Here is what he wrote: Nikki you are not of God. Your message is to diminish God's Covenant keeping people for He cannot write His law and remove the Fourth which involves the rightoeusness of Christ. Sorry Luvee, but you are not a messenger here. Your doctrine is that of the Nicolaitans which God hateth. Its a shame you have had your eyes closed permanently. You will have to do much better Nikki - since the book of Malachi as an end time setting just prior to the Second OCming - can you explain chapter 4 with your newly acquired decptive doctrines? If you cannot explain it without going on line or to others you should be ashamed for all Scripture is to be weighed and given be consideration not the current arrangement your sharing. Keep in mind not one person including the SDA's who post here can answer Malachi 4 - which states 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do [this], saith the LORD of hosts. 4:4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel,[with] the statutes and judgments. 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: 4:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse. Why remember ye the law of Moses my servant in the setting of the end times? _____________________________ Ok, so what do we do with Malachi 4:4?? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11076 Registered: 12-2003  |
My goodness, you've been through the mill, Free2dance! Actually, Christians can address Malachi 4; it's Adventists who can't. Malachi 4:4 is easy to explain: Malachi was writing to Israel! They HAD to remember the law of Moses until the Fulfillment came! Remember after the Mt. of Transfiguration? (You can check this in Matthew 17.) Peter, John, and James had just heard God say "This is my Son; listen to Him!" And Jesus alone stood before them, Moses and Elijah having disappeared. On their way down the mountain, Jesus told them not to tell anyone what they had seen until after He rose from the dead. Why? They had to obey the law and the prophets (Moses and Elijah) until they were fulfilled. It was God's mandate to them! Only after Jesus fulfilled the law could people listen only to Him as the complete fulfillment of the Law and the prophets. Malachi wrote BEFORE Jesus. He had to tell the Israelites to obey the law of Moses. It was God's revelation and provision for them, and that was God's requirement for His people as the shadow of what was to come. The first part of Malachi is eschatological prophecy. The day IS coming when, as Peter said, the earth will melt with fervent heat (2 Peter 3:12). But the Lord Jesus will reign, and those that fear Him will reign also, and the wicked will be destroyed. We can't read Scripture without first asking, what would this have meant to the original, intended audience? Israel would have understood that the faithful who honored the Law of Moses would experience ultimate victory with the One God would send, and the wicked would be destroyed. That was always Israel's hope. Today we read the OT through the lens of the NT, and we can see, thanks to Roman 9 through 11, that God still has a remnant in Israel as well as bringing Gentiles into His plan and purpose. Today we have Jesus, the fulfillment of the Law of Moses, and all who honor Him will experience the victory Malachi foretold. Colleen | ||
| Jdpascal Registered user Username: Jdpascal Post Number: 209 Registered: 10-2003 |
First of all, to what, in her thinking, does the 'law of Moses' refer? It seems to me that, in convenient SDA speak, they use 'law of Moses' to refer to either the 10 commandments or the rest of the laws thought to be ceremonial/civil/health in nature. I don't recall ever, as an SDA, having 'law of Moses' used in acknowledged reference to the totality of the 613. Elijah the prophet refered to here is, according to Jesus, John the Baptist. I believe that the key to understanding verse 4 is held in the story of the road to Emaus and the subsequent appearance of Jesus to the disciples in the room in Jerusalem. In Luke 24 it says (twice) that beginning with Moses (law) and the prophets, Jesus explained the testimony (Revelation 12:17,and 19:10)that He was to give and how the happenings of his life testified to the accuracy of what had been written in and under the old covenant. The law of Moses was the covenant of what God would do to establish the righteousness of his kingdom. Jesus is that "Establishment of Righteousness". Another part of the explanation, I believe is found in the story of the Transfiguration where Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus on the Mount of Olives. edit: and what Colleen said!!!  (Message edited by jdpascal on March 25, 2010) | ||
| Free2dance Registered user Username: Free2dance Post Number: 14 Registered: 2-2010 |
Thank you Colleen and jdpascal. lol, your not kidding Colleen. I have been called the "little horn", "uneducated", "demonically bent", "not of God"...etc. I don't even remember it all. But the one thing that was amazing through this is that never did I feel alone or confused. I can finally have these conversations and not feel shaken in my beliefs. Sure, I don't have a lot of answers, but I have a trusted Body of believers I can go to and feel safe with their teachings. This is new! I appreciate the teaching on Malachi. I was not sure how to explain that one. The beautiful outcome of today is that there was a young person in the SDA forum who saw today the truth about SDAs. I gave him/her a lot of former SDA resources and encouraged him/her to sign up for proclamation. The forum name was "wanting to learn", so I will be praying for this person, as well as the angry people I was in communication with today. Even though they were so upset by me, I couldn't help but feel love for them. I don't say this like I am so great, I am NOT. But there is definately something different about all this in comparison to spiritual debates I would engage in before I had Jesus right. I was really able to separate the issues and see that this battle is with the spirts and not the people online. I have a strong desire to pray for them! There is a Southern California man on there named Paul. He is a Christian who has spent 2 years pouring truth all over the pages of these forums. I will be praying for him as well. And another Christian woman named Diane who checks in on these forums and prays for these SDAs to see Ellen for what she was (or is it fair to say for what she is...since she has been imortalized within the organization). Thanks everyone for your support today!! God Bless!! | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3199 Registered: 10-2004 |
Malachi ends with, primarily, a prophecy of the first coming of Jesus. And until then, the Jews were supposed to remember the Law of Moses. It is another way of saying there would be no more Scripture until the Messiah came (Malachi being the last book of the Old Testament, before a long break prior to Jesus' incarnation). Jeremy (Message edited by jeremy on March 26, 2010) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11080 Registered: 12-2003 |
Oh, good point, Jeremy! Colleen | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1219 Registered: 7-2007 |
Free2dance; how about having that Adventist lady go to her local Adventist Book Center and buy the book: "Spirit of Prophecy - volume 1." Have her look at the first chapter starting with the second paragraph (about page 17 in the little hard cover book that I have.) Ellen White shows the arian roots of Adventism by saying that God the Father PROMOTED Jesus to equality with Himself. She goes on after that to say how envious Satan was that God had preferred Jesus above himself. | ||
| Cordurb Registered user Username: Cordurb Post Number: 74 Registered: 4-2009 |
When I read Malachi 4:4-5 I understand it this way: Malachi 4:4 Hey do you guys remember when I gave you the Law of Moses with all its statutes and judgements and it reminded you to serve me? Malachi 4:5 Guess what? Now I am going to send you John the Baptist - the prophet - to announce my coming and turn the hearts of the fathers to the children and the children to their fathers - you will remember me again. In other words, the remember here in my opinion isn't saying remember it because you need to do the 10 commandments, it is contrasting the giving of the Law of Moses to the forthcoming pronouncement of Elijah. It has nothing to do with keeping the 10c's. Maybe I am wrong, but seems clear to me. | ||
| Free2dance Registered user Username: Free2dance Post Number: 16 Registered: 2-2010 |
Very interesting Cordurb! Thanks. Asurprise, I did mention to him (i had the gender wrong) that the arian roots are not hidden. But this guy truly isnt intersted in seeking truth. He already "has it". Between three other Christians and myself, any onlooker will have plenty of truth to take away and figure this out on their own. Thanks for the help everyone. I at least know how to deal with this in the future if Im asked about it again. =) |
