| Author | Message | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 577 Registered: 12-2007 |
Isn't there an 'easy' way to explain the immortality of the soul's that are in Hell ? I have no doubt about the immortality of the souls in Heaven. I think what Colleen stated above "Jesus Himself saying He was giving His Spirit into His Father's hands right after telling the thief He would be with Him that day in Paradise" Jesus had no fear of his soul going to hell....He knew He would be going to Paradise (even though SDA's stick a comma in there making it sound as if it means something different). I dont know how they can get around the part though when Jesus says "unto your hands I commit my spirit" He didnt say "breath" but "spirit" But it isnt the part of going directly to Heaven or Hell I have a problem understanding,, it is the everlasting, without end through all eternity in Hell part I cant get my mind around... There must be some way to explain something like this having an easier time of it than what you guys are going through trying to get it through our thick heads...:-/ ??? And if I am ever to accept that concept, then it is smething I would need to share,, and I just dont have the wherewithall to go through what you are going through to try and explain it to someone,,, so though I may not at this time completely understand or agree with the concept of an eternal forever unending Hell,,, I DO really appreciate all the time, study and efforts of those of you who are being so patient with those of us who just do not get it. :-) Just seems to me that if it is a Biblical concept that God really feels we need to understand,,,, it should be easier.:-/ Skeeter | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 1013 Registered: 10-2008 |
Hec and Skeeter, This is a discussion from awhile ago. It was a discussion mainly between Phil and I, but others jumped in. It was when I was trying to sort out this idea of "immortal"; "hell"; and "destroy". In a way it might be helpful. I am pasting the link here: http://www.formeradventist.com/cgi-bin/discus/board-auth.cgi?file=/4529/8770.html&lm=1243334973 Keri | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1897 Registered: 4-2000  |
Since the Bible speaks with one voice (God being the ultimate author), we need to adhere to strict hermeneutical principles to ensure that we get the big picture. As Dr. Morey rightly stated, we can only understand death and the afterlife in the context of the fall of man into sin. Without getting Genesis right, we are left with a plethora of human ideas that have plagued the Christian faith for many centuries.
God's holiness demands judgment against sin, and thus we find that the history of redemption is filled with awesome displays of God's holy anger. The holiness of God has central place in the Old Testament concept of the character of God. Man was created to bear God's image, and therefore it is not surprising that man was created with original holiness. However, when God looked at man after the fall, instead of holiness, He "saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually" (Gen. 6:5). Truly, we can only appreciate God's grace to the extent that we understand the depth of His divine wrath. His grace still amazes me, Dennis Fischer (Message edited by Dennis on March 09, 2010) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11030 Registered: 12-2003  |
Dennis, thanks for another really good quote from Dr. Morey. Yes, it was the realization that we have actual "spirits" that began to help me see that the real nature of man is the union of body plus spirit. Separation of the two is the first death. But spiritual death caused by mankind's separation from God, our legacy from Adam, IS actually death. Ephesians identifies this separation as death, and Colossians identifies it as being in "the domain of darkness". The second death seems to me to be the most horrific thing of all because our spirit, which is made in God's image, will not be destroyed, and to be eternally cut off from Life and Light is unbelievably dreadful. Jesus has already provided the means of our avoiding this eternal death and separation. To reject Him is to reject Life and Light and Hope and Love and to be eternally doomed to the most intense suffering--which Jesus described as burning and which Peter described as deep darkness. To reject the Sin Bearer is to reject Life. It is the existence of the spirit and the understanding of its nature that clarifies this doctrine. Actually, I don't find the Bible confusing about this topic. While the specifics are unclear, the eternal suffering concept does seem clear to me if I read read the text using the plain, normal meaning of the words. The struggle for me was getting my mind around the "clear, normal meanings of the words". I was carefully taught all manner of metaphorical interpretations and rationalizing of the texts! Colleen | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 932 Registered: 3-2009 |
I was reading 2 Cor 4 and 5 today and some crazy thoughts came to my mind. I have never heard this explained this way so I need to check with you so I won't go around making stories. It seems that the whole chapter four is talking one way or another about death, Jesus death, our death, etc. It also talks about body (v.10) mortal flesh (v.11) then v. 16 talks about our outer man (self) and our inner man (self). In v. 18 "while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal." It would seem to me that Paul is still trying to compare the body (outer man) with the spirit (inner man). In v. 11 he mention "mortal flesh" and in v.18 he says that the things that are seen are temporary. Is that a parallel? I that is so, then "the things that are unseen are eternal" will need to refer to the spirit. So he would be saying that the body is temporal but the spirit is eternal. Now, I know that commentators refer to the "things that are seen as the material things, and the "things that are unseen as the spiritual (immaterial) things. But since I've been looking for some scripture that would say that the spirit is immortal. I even asked here for someone to give me some scriptures and no one has done so, maybe I'm just looking too hard. Could some of the people here who parse the Greek, look it up and tell me if that interpretation is consistent with the Greek? And some of those who don't do Greek could also give me their take on it according to other evidences than Greek. Thank you. Hec (Message edited by hec on March 14, 2010) | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 1018 Registered: 10-2008 |
Hec, I was struck by your question last night and have been thinking about it ever since ... Your initial question is ... find me a text that says that the "spirit" is immortal? Can you find me a text that says, God the Father, God the Son, and the Holy Spirit comprise the trinity? (No specific text - but there are texts {and the whole of scripture} that teach the trinity) Can you find me a text that teaches the Sabbath was done away with? (I came to understand that the Seventh-day Sabbath wasn't applicable by studying the Old and New Covenant ... all the scriptures that applied.)? Please don't misunderstand me, ... I'm writing this with my thinking cap on ... and not in a "haughty, taughty" type of tone. Hard to convey my tone via words. Consider we are talking this over in a coffee or sandwich shop. That is how I am writing this - as if it were a conversation. Hec, what I have found when I study scripture is to look at the chapters before a text, after a text, other writings by the same author of that particular book in the Bible and then what is the "whole" of this throughout the Bible. You are DOING that and I applaud you! You said I'm reading the chapter before and after 2 Cor. 4 & 5. If I look at 2 Corinthians ... 2 & 3 it is talking about the Old Covenant and the New Covenant (2 Cor. 3:4-18). Paul is talking about how the old covenant - engraved in letters on stone "killed", but the Spirit gives life. Hec, now I see in chapter 4 Paul is mentioning this "mortal flesh" vs. 11. BUT then don't miss verse 14.
Then if you read 2 Cor. 5:1-10 ... We see Paul talking about being in "this tent" ... and then "longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling." He also says that he would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord ... but whether in the body or with the Lord the goal is to please the Lord. I think we can't miss something here vs. 14. The resurrection of Jesus. Jesus was resurrected into a "resurrected body". The Spirit in vs. 5 of 2 Cor. 5 speaks that the Spirit is a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come. We will be resurrected into a body like Christ's resurrected body. The resurrection of Christ - And His appearing to His disciples afterwards - telling Thomas to put His hand in His side ... gives us a "glimpse" of what an immortal body is like. Jesus' body after His resurrection was immortal and because He was raised - eye witness accounts - and with an immortal body - we have assurance that we, too, will be raised bodily immortal. This is why many churches have a doctrinal statement that says ... believe in the bodily resurrection at Christ's second coming ... So what about this immortal spirit and immortal body ... and hell ... That is the big question isn't it ... I have to go, but may I recommend reading 1 Corinthians Chapter 15 and Romans 4:18-25; 1 Peter 1:3-12. As I understand it ... Christ's resurrection with a new body ... exemplifies the resurrection to come of all - some to eternal life and some to eternal damnation ... this "new" body ... we are not told much about ... So do we have "immortal" spirits and will we have "immortal" bodies ... I believe so as I look at the "whole" of scripture and what it teaches ... The texts that are "foggy" cause me to look then for texts that are clear ... Your 2 Cor. 5 seems to me to clearly teach that we live in "tents", ie. bodies ... and Paul wishes he could be away from the tent and with the Lord ... but until the "resurrection" when both body and spirit will be in the presence of the Lord He waits with a living hope. And the text in Thessalonians if you look at the Greek shows that when Christ returns He will have "others"/ not just angels with Him ... the "immortal" spirits of those who as Paul said in 1 Cor. 5 - are with the Lord and away from their tents. Anyways, ... Keri P.S. Easter will be especially treasured this year as I begin to understand the full significance of the resurrection of Christ for me. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11050 Registered: 12-2003 |
Yes, Keri! Very good points! Colleen | ||
| Heretic Registered user Username: Heretic Post Number: 278 Registered: 2-2005 |
I apologize for not reading through this thread more thoroughly but I have just one observation and hopefully it hasn't already been discussed too much here. If Christ was the only one perfect enough to serve as a propitiation to satisfy the just and righteous wrath of a holy God then how can hell be anything BUT eternal? If it wasn't, at some point in time an eternal God would have to decide to stop pouring out His wrath on our sin to simply annihilate us but on what basis does that occur if we are not in Christ? Wouldn't we have to conclude that at that point we had sufficiently satisfied the wrath and justice of an eternal God WITHOUT Christ? If this is indeed the case, then why did Christ have to die as a Substitute at all? If there were some other way to be given mercy (cease punishment) apart from Christ then it really would be a type of cosmic child abuse and would do damage to the Gospel itself. Perhaps this is why hell is said to be a fire that cannot be quenched -- because only a suitable propitiation COULD quench it. | ||
| Animal Registered user Username: Animal Post Number: 747 Registered: 7-2008  |
Hello Heretic I find your observations on this subject quite helpful to me as I have struggled to understand this matter more clearly. Thank you so very much. I havent seen your name on here before,,,so welcome aboard. ...Animal | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 942 Registered: 3-2009 |
It seems to me that Heretic is referring to purgatory rather than annihilation. How can one compare eternal life with annihilation? If the sinner had paid enough then God would not annihilate the sinner but give him eternal life. Exactly because the sinner cannot pay and he did not avail himself of the payments made by Jesus is why God annihilate him. No life for the sinner. Life is only in Christ. Hec | ||
| Heretic Registered user Username: Heretic Post Number: 279 Registered: 2-2005 |
On what basis does a perfectly holy and immutable God who must punish sin commited against an infinite, eternal and just judge to BE a just judge while not violating His divine nature, cease from punishing that sin? Anhihilating the sinner vs. an ongoing punishement of the sin that goes unatoned for is showing mercy on that sinner without payment of sin. If we could at some point pay enough for our sins to warrant mercy, then I could see how punishment could be finite without violating God's holy character. (Message edited by Heretic on March 19, 2010) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11068 Registered: 12-2003 |
Heretic, I agree. Well-stated. Colleen | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 944 Registered: 3-2009 |
This is a very good argument. IMO. However, I don't see how any one could say that annihilation is not punishment. Will the annihilated be with God? Will they enjoy eternal life? Will they spend eternity with their love ones? Punishment doesn't necessarily have to be the application of some bad consequences. It could also be the withholding of some good things. The annihilated will not have any good thing coming to them. That's is punishment. Non-existence. Not being is probably one of the things that people fear more about death. Hec | ||
| Heretic Registered user Username: Heretic Post Number: 280 Registered: 2-2005 |
Oh, I think it's clear that annihilation is punishment but does it fit the crime...that is to say sin against an eternal deity, a cosmic treason? You could slaughter a sleeping family, get caught, serve a year in prison and make an argument that it's technically punishment, but does it fit the crime? Also, I'm not really sure how something that no longer exists can receive punishment. That's a little like saying the mosquito I squashed for biting my arm is still being punished by depriving him of time he could be spending and fun he COULD be having with his mosquito buddies. But if he simply doesn't exist anymore I'm not sure how that would matter to him. Believe me, I derive no pleasure out of this doctrine because as a human with human weaknesses, I feel sorry for anyone that would have to suffer this fate. Without Christ finding me and drawing me into his fold, I'd be there, too. But, on the flipside, it is comforting to know that God is perfectly holy and just -- even though that is horrible news for the unredeemed -- and that however He punishes sin will be perfectly just regardless of my or anyone else's feelings about it. That's the only thing he owes us...justice. And that's the bad news, it's not a good thing. If God gave us all that we deserved, it would be beyond horrific. The good news is that for reasons known only to Him, he gave us Christ who has already suffered the punishment of the just wrath that we rightfully and fairly have coming to us as sinners one afternoon deep in history. Oh, and thanks for the greeting, Animal! | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1919 Registered: 4-2000 |
To those who claim that it is unjust for God to render everlasting punishment for sins committed during the limited time span of a person's life, Thomas Aquinas (1224-1274) said it well:
There are no atheists in hell--only believers. The unconfessed and unforgiven sins of the ungodly are forever before the Father. The magnitude of the punishment matches the magnitude of the sin. Truly, a sin against God is of infinite greatness. Sin is cosmic treason against a holy God. John Calvin commented that the eternity of hell's sufferings corresponds to the eternity of Christ's glory. Moreover, all objections are based on the false principle that it is proper and reasonable to make our human sentiments and judgments the measure of God's essence and activity. The doctrine of eternal damnation is so clearly taught in Scripture that one cannot deny it without at the same time rejecting biblical authority. Dennis Fischer (Message edited by Dennis on March 20, 2010) | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1920 Registered: 4-2000 |
During a yummy breakfast this morning (I enjoy a hearty breakfast), my favorite theologian, Sylvia, reviewed my post #1919. She added that not only the stain of sin remains forever but the actual physical scar of sin remains forever (i.e., in Jesus' glorified body). Thus, throughout eternity, the nail prints in Jesus' hands will be visible to the redeemed of all ages. How can we ever praise and thank Him enough for such redeeming love? Dennis Fischer | ||
| Heretic Registered user Username: Heretic Post Number: 281 Registered: 2-2005 |
Thanks, Dennis. You and Thomas Aquinas stated it better than I ever could! This is only an observation, but to me it seems that so much of this ties back in to one's view of the character of God. What we see in many churches today, in Adventism as well as outside of Adventism, is an emphasis on the attributes of God that we're most comfortable with (like His love and mercy) while others are ignored (such as His justice and wrath). There seems to be less talk of our guilt as sinners before God and thus in need of redemption and more emphasis on our self-esteem and happiness in this life. Just flip through the cable channels on a Sunday morning or peruse the aisles of your neighborhood Christian book store. But while God is a God of love and mercy, all of His attributes are infinitely perfect. As much as He loves His children, as a righteous judge He hates sin. He must. To minimize the importance or the reality of any of His biblically revealed attributes is a tacit admission that there is something wrong with those attributes which is impossible or He wouldn’t be God. It comes down to perfect holiness and what He requires which not only affects your view of what took place on the cross, what qualifies us before God, and the extent of our depravity in comparison to His glory, but what a fair punishment for transgression against that holiness consists of. If you believe that your salvation is a cooperative effort with Jesus, that somehow you can stand before God basing your fitness for heaven on anything other than the credited righteousness of one Who is qualified to reconcile you to that holiness alone, then in all likelihood, you have underestimated that holiness. If you think that you can “keep” the law of God with divine assistance or not, then you have lowered the standard of God’s righteousness to something doable for fallen man and if this were possible, it would only make us co-saviors robbing the transcendent God of the universe of ALL of his glory. As SDA’s, how many of us were told that by “keeping” the Sabbath we were thereby “keeping” the whole law, the missing ingredient in the full recipe? This again short-sells the holiness of God, merely paying it lip service. My point is that if we can’t better grasp the holiness of God (and I realize that in our finiteness we still can’t come near a full understanding of this) it will continue to cloud our assessment of many biblical doctrines leading us into error, elevate our own view of ourselves and we’ll never see the necessity of infinite punishment of infractions against an infinite God and why its not only just but required if He is to fully display his divine character while not violating it. Sorry for rambling as I’m trying to form and relate thoughts in a kitchen brimming with boisterous children! (Message edited by Heretic on March 20, 2010) (Message edited by Heretic on March 20, 2010) | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 946 Registered: 3-2009 |
Dennis, it seems to me that you are answering the wrong question. I agree that the punishment for the lost is eternal. The Bible says so. Where you and I disagree is on what is the punishment. You say that the punishment is God keeping in existence all the lost only for the purpose of inflicting pain. Eternally. I say that the punishment is annihilation. Eternally. The difference between you and I is that you refuse to admit that annihilation is punishment. Hec | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1921 Registered: 4-2000 |
Hec and Heretic, Thank you for your comments. Yes, I agree, Heretic, that it boils down to insufficiently understanding the holiness of God--thereby thinking of sin as less than a big deal. An infinite offense (unconfessed and unforgiven) that only causes one to be obliterated in a moment--the quick and easy way out that is akin to the ungodly asking God to have the rocks and the mountains to fall upon them and kill them instantly. However, Scripture informs us that God does not honor their request for suicide/obliteration. The ungodly in hell would like for annihilation to be true. It would certainly be the better deal for Satan as well. Hec, it is important to remember that one must be actually alive to be tormented or punished. Even our civil and legislative authorities do not make laws or expedite decrees to torment dead corpses. Rather, annihilation would constitute the end of punishment. As you already know, many criminals ask for the death penalty instead of serving a life sentence. Truly, only an eternal hell could provide 6,000,000 consecutive life sentences to ruthless guys like Adolf Hitler. Anything less in duration would impede, impugn, and mischaracterize divine justice. Moreover, human beings are fashioned in the very image of God; therefore, to eliminate the crowning jewels of His creation would do violence to His nature. He has even spared the evil angels (created beings) from obliteration for thousands or possibly millions of years already. I am most thankful that not all of the evil angels are loose upon this planet, but are chained in "pits of darkness" according to the apostle Peter. Certainly, fidelity to the Word of God and not human opinion or sentiment must be the final arbiter in matters theological. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 947 Registered: 3-2009 |
I keep hearing about Hitler and how annihilation wouldn't be a proper punishment. Here is my problem with that: if Hitler will be on hell being punished for eternity for the 6,000,000 murders he committed, would it be fair for someone who only kill one person to be in hell being punished for eternity, just the same as Hitler? Annihilation at least allows for one to spend more time than the other before being annihilated. On the other hand, I didn't think that they were going to go to hell for the sins they committed, but for not accepting God's remedy for sin, Jesus Christ. In that case everybody committed the same sin, rejection of Christ, and deserve the same punishment. So either way, it seems to me that annihilation, as an eternal punishment, would provide more justice than an eternal punishing in hell. Hec |
