| Author | Message | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11075 Registered: 12-2003  |
Heretic, I agree with the gist of your question. Hec--I understand what you're saying; I do, indeed! And yet—if a person is annihilated, he is no longer being punished. If a person is not aware of the suffering, he's "out of his misery". Either he's drugged into a stupor, or he's dead and gone. Annihilation just isn't suffering or punishment. In fact, the reality that annihilation is NOT suffering is the reason it is so attractive. We have trouble seeing an all-powerful God who is all-merciful and the essence of Love permitting "suffering". Justice, though, implies consequences that fit the crime—even if that means suffering. Colleen | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 604 Registered: 12-2007 |
"Consequences that fit the crime- even if that means suffering." Yes indeed. But through all eternity ? Sorry, maybe I am still looking at God as being too loving and merciful to do that... but that is just the way I see Him. Punishment to fit the crime... even though some may say "sin is sin" .. do you not see a difference, do you not think God sees a difference in degrees of sin ? I just cant see God punishing someone who did not accept Christ through either ignorance or being led astray by some circumstance beyond their control , due to poor choices, etc to the same punishment as someone who would deliberately turn their back on Him and do atrocious crimes like murdering someone,rape, child molesters etc.without ever repenting and turning from their sin. God is God and He will do as He sees fit, and I know what ever punishment is given will be what is needed and maybe I am totally wrong about the whole punishment thing...and if I am then I know that when the time comes God will help me to understand why it must be done in a certain way... but personally...I just do not see Him that way. The punishment must fit the crime. I agree. And I know I am making an unequal comparison here as God is God and humans are humans,,, but would it be considered punishment fitting the crime if the same sentence were given out to human criminals ? Say one person was found guilty and sentenced to death for murdering a child...a just sentence for the crime ? I would say YES ! Someone else stole a loaf of bread to feed his hungry child, gets caught and is sent before the same judge, Should they both receive the same punishment ? They both committed "crimes" Doesnt seem fair and just to me... and I believe God is much more fair and just than any earthly judge could ever be. (just my opinion and I realize I may very well be wrong,,, but I honestly dont think so) Francie | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 2373 Registered: 8-2004  |
Skeeter, So far as I understand it the sin that loses those who will be lost is not generally the 'sins' of whatever nature that we commit as humans, whether great or small, but rather the sin of rejecting the salvation God offers - doing "despite unto the Spirit of grace" - rejecting God Himself. This, no matter how we cut it is the ultimate sin and deserves the ultimate punishment. | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 1033 Registered: 10-2008 |
Francie, May I ask a question from what you have posted? Where in scripture does it say that God "punishes" according to "degrees" of sin? Are you saying, that according to annihilation that some will suffer longer than others before being annihilated? And where is that found in scripture? I believe that idea is an Ellenism ... And if we take that idea as truth ... That some sin is more heinous than others - say murder vs. someone just didn't "hear" the gospel and are annihilated ... and there isn't a place in scripture that talks about degree's of burning before annihilated - then the punishment, annihilation, would still be the same in degree - would it not? Everyone would need to be annihilated at the same time. It seems to me that you are equating sin with two things ... sins of the body and the "sin" of not accepting Jesus as one's personal Saviour. The sin that is judged at the end is the sin of not accepting Jesus ---- not "sins". Only one thing keeps someone out of heaven - not accepting Jesus. You can't have both definitions of sin when it comes to eternal punishment. Salvation is based on accepting Jesus. Not on keeping away from sin once we have accepted Jesus. Salvation and hell are based on the same thing - rejecting or accepting Jesus. Salvation and hell are not based on anything we do in the flesh - as Adventists have taught. I understand the paradigm shift, Francie, I really do ... it is huge ... and I struggled in my mind for weeks. I like what Colleen wrote above, "Just ask God to teach you truth in His time frame." The analyzing can drive you nuts sometimes - at least it did me ... and can be so draining ... With care, Keri P.S. I met a woman at church that is from the east - a Muslim woman. She had a dream that told her she needed to be washed in Jesus blood. She had NO idea what that meant. The Holy Spirit led her to a Dr. at our church - who when asked the question by this woman - explained what the dream meant. She has accepted Jesus and is attending our church. God is not powerless to reveal Himself to those who are His ... it is not based on the Adventist paradigm of "needing" to spread the gospel before He comes --- The rocks will cry out - if needed to bring His children to Himself. At the end of time - there will be only two classes of people ... those who did not receive Jesus as their personal Savior and those who did receive Jesus as their personal Savior. And God is the one Who brings them to Himself ... we just have the privilege of watching the Holy Spirit work and we can choose to be part of the Spirit Who is already at work in the person's life. | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 605 Registered: 12-2007 |
I had typed out here several more arguments and I guess we could keep this bouncing back and forth for a very long time with neither side giving up their views. I just erased it all because after praying through feelings of great frustration I suddenly felt peace as Psalm 46:10 "Be still and know that I am God" went through my mind. I think in the end it (for me) comes down to this; I need to accept that I will never have, and do not "need" to have all the answers to every question I have. It is enough to accept that God is sovereign and HE is in control. I trust Him to do what is right and I think no matter how much WE debate the subject, only HE knows for SURE . Francie | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 606 Registered: 12-2007 |
"May I ask a question from what you have posted? Where in scripture does it say that God "punishes" according to "degrees" of sin? Are you saying, that according to annihilation that some will suffer longer than others before being annihilated? And where is that found in scripture? I believe that idea is an Elleninism...." The verse that comes to mind at the moment (I have not done a search but am sure there are others)is Revelation 20:12-13 where it is stated 2 times that they will be "judged according to their deeds". If everyones "deeds" were considered equal, what would be the point in judging each person "every one of them according to their deeds". ?? Francie | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 1034 Registered: 10-2008 |
Great question and text, Francie ... now you have me thinking! Glad you are asking the questions that you are!! Don't have time to pursue it right now ... but maybe some others will jump in in regards to the word "deeds" used in Rev. 10:12-13. Keri | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3194 Registered: 10-2004 |
Francie, The doctrine of eternal Hell does not necessarily do away with degrees of punishment. Two passages which are generally believed to teach this are Luke 12:46-48 and Revelation 20:12-15, which you mentioned. Just because Hell is eternal, does not mean that some people will not be able to suffer more than others. On the other hand, any sin against an infinite God (and especially the "eternal sin" of rejecting Jesus--Mark 3:29) deserves infinite punishment. Jeremy | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 609 Registered: 12-2007 |
I just found this article... "Hell: Eternal Torment or Complete Annihilation?" It is 12 pages long but I just printed it out and will read it this evening and see if it helps clear anything up one way or other or if just adds to the confusion 8-/ Every time I think I am finished even trying to understand the concept something like this shows up to get my attention. Dont know if that is a good thing or a bad thing. Does anyone know anything about this guy Jeremy K. Moritz ? http://www.jeremyandchristine.com/articles/eternal.php | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1925 Registered: 4-2000  |
Francie, The very notion of various degrees of punishment in annihilation is really very contradictory. Because if the fire is literal (as annihilationists claim), then there can be no degrees of punishment in being "burned at the stake" so to speak. Importantly, a "literal" fire would instantly consume them all without any variation. According to their teaching, the same fire instantly falls on all of them. Thus, again we find annihilationism being inconsistent with Scripture. The Bible clearly teaches degrees in punishment for the ungodly and degrees of reward in eternal bliss. According to Ellen White, Satan will burn for many days. This is clearly impossible with a literal fire. Moreover, how does fire destroy a spirit? Satan and his angels do not have a physical bodies to consume into ashes. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 1035 Registered: 10-2008 |
Francie, Thanks so much for your question and the scripture in Revelation indicating "degrees". I learned something new. I had heard of various "degrees" of reward for the righteous, but had not been aware of various degrees for punishment ... I just automatically assumed it was an Ellenism ... yet this time the degree of punishment was in scripture and not from her. Thanks for clearing that up. Yet, I do still believe in an eternal hell and not annihilation - based on what has been shared previously in this thread. I will try to read through the link you posted - maybe tomorrow. Keri | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 610 Registered: 12-2007 |
Keri, right now I am still on the fence... I am leaning more toward annihilation, but trying to keep an open mind as I think it is important not to be so sure that I am "correct" that I would be unwilling to learn that I am not. Francie | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 611 Registered: 12-2007 |
If there are to be "degrees" for rewards, Why would there not be "degrees" of punishment also ? Just waondering.... Francie | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 1036 Registered: 10-2008 |
Oh, Francie ... you are right as I said ... I had it mixed up in my mind and hadn't really studied about "degrees" of punishment. So I'm so glad you posted what you did - because you are right it doesn't make sense that there would be "degrees" for rewards and not for punishment. I was wrong in my thinking - of which you and the Holy Spirit cleared up. Awhile ago I was convicted to accept the doctrine of hell - even though I didn't fully understand it all then - and still can't fully "picture" it in my mind what "it" would look like - I studied it and found scripture that did support it as Jeremy and Colleen have described above ... So may I ask a similar question to you as you are seeking to sort things through ... It actually is a similar question ... If heaven is life eternal, why would "punishment"/hell not also be eternal? A similar "experience" but opposites ... Keri | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 612 Registered: 12-2007 |
"The doctrine of eternal Hell does not necessarily do away with degrees of punishment. " I agree. "Two passages which are generally believed to teach this are Luke 12:46-48 and Revelation 20:12-15, which you mentioned." " Just because Hell is eternal, does not mean that some people will not be able to suffer more than others. " I agree. I also feel that IF annihilation (sp) is true, that the same would apply... that there could be varying degrees of punishment (before complete annihilation were to be carried out) depending on the seriousness of the sins (per my earlier example of the person who would deliberately kill someone, veersus someone who would commit the crime of stealing a loaf of bread to feed someone) Both are crimes, if both persons were sent before the same judge (in this case God) should they both receive the same punishment because they had both committed "sin" ? ULTIMATELY with annihilation there would be the same END result.. complete and utter destruction of mind, body AND soul. I have read somewhere on here the comparison of a car being totaled and the metal being melted down and reused for another purpose, no longer a car but the atoms, molecular structure (compared to spirit) still existing but in a different form not identifiable as a car. Dont know how this would relate though to a persons "soul" as God.. HE IS ABLE to destroy (annihilate if you will ) even the very molecules... He is able to "destroy both body AND soul in Hell".. not very scientific I suppose, but HE is able. I am NOT saying He WILL, just that if He chose to He very well COULD. Francie (Message edited by skeeter on March 25, 2010) | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 613 Registered: 12-2007 |
Keri, I would like for you to study this out for yourself with prayer and the help of the Holy Spirit and NOT take my ramblings as fact because thats all they are at this point is ramblings as I try and sort through it all and try to gain an understanding on this and other subjects one way or other. I am certainly NOT a Bible Scholar and I dont want to feel responsible for anyone deciding ane way or other on any subject going by my personal opinions and studying... there are certainly on here others (about everyone) who is more knowledgable about the Bible than I am. I just think it is important to leave the decision up to God and be willing to accept that which ever (eternal unending Hell, or eventual annihilation) it turns out to be, we need to ACCEPT that Gods way is indeed the BEST . Personally, I think we will ALL be in for a LOT of surprises in a lot of areas when that time comes. Another favorite saying " Don't believe everything you think". 8-) as to your question : "If heaven is life eternal, why would "punishment"/hell not also be eternal? A similar "experience" but opposites ?" Again just my personal opinion,,, but I feel that though the literal PLACE of Hell will not be "eternal" the EFFECTS of what happens there WILL be eternal. If God so chooses to utterly destroy both body and soul in Hell (in the annihilation sense) the effect of that would be "eternal" there would be no chance of those who were lost/ destroyed ever coming back. Some may say (and have said) that annihilation would be the "easy way out" since those who had sinned would believe they could sin and be destroyed and that would be the end of it. I just dont see it that way.. kinda reminds me of the SDA's way of thinking that if we do away with the Ten Commandments it somehow gives us a license to sin. Francie | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 614 Registered: 12-2007 |
Had to leave for a while so didnt finish the thought... Some may say (and have said) that annihilation would be the "easy way out" since those who had sinned would believe they could sin and be destroyed and that would be the end of it. I just dont see it that way.. kinda reminds me of the SDA's way of thinking that if we do away with the Ten Commandments it somehow gives us a license to sin. My feeling is that either we accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior and we want to serve Him and spend eternity with Him, or we dont. I feel God wants us to LOVE HIM and to serve Him out of that LOVE and not out of a FEAR of eternal torment. If someone is serving Him only to avoid a place of eternal torment, is that really love ? Francie | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3196 Registered: 10-2004 |
Francie, We don't serve Him to avoid eternal torment, but because He has (past tense) eternally saved us by His grace alone from eternal torment. We aren't saved by serving God. And yes many people have been saved by trusting in Jesus Christ to save them from eternal torment, out of sheer God-given, Biblical fear of Hell. There is nothing wrong with that. Why would Jesus warn us so much about Hell, if it wasn't supposed to make us flee to Him and trust Him for salvation from Hell??? And the fact that He has saved us from eternal Hell does cause us to love Him (because He first loved us, by saving us from an eternal, unending Hell). Jeremy (Message edited by jeremy on March 25, 2010) | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 615 Registered: 12-2007 |
Jeremy, YES! We love Him because He first loved us :-) He is the giver of life. If we truly love God, and truly believe that He loves us do we need to "fear" Hell ? Isnt a large part of our love for Him TRUST ? We trust Him with our lives (and souls) that He has given us and trust Him to save us from Hell because we abide in His love. :-) Francie | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 616 Registered: 12-2007 |
Jeremy: "many people have been saved by trusting in Jesus Christ to save them from eternal torment, out of sheer God-given, Biblical fear of Hell. There is nothing wrong with that." 2 Timothy 1:7 "For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind." If the "spirit of fear" does not come from God... from where does it come ? Francie |
