| Author | Message | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3190 Registered: 10-2004 |
Hec, What is your interpretation of Mark 3:29? Jeremy | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 948 Registered: 3-2009 |
Mark 3:29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin”– In the context of this discussion, I would say that if you blaspheme against the HS you cannot be saved. You have committed and eternal sin which deserves and eternal punishment. Some would say that the eternal punishment could be annihilation, others would say that the eternal punishment could be eternal punishing. Hec | ||
| Animal Registered user Username: Animal Post Number: 750 Registered: 7-2008  |
For me,,, running out of rootbeer would be punishment. Hope we will have rootbeer in the earth made new...Yummy !!!! Animal | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 949 Registered: 3-2009 |
Don't worry about the rootbeer, Animal. I'm sure that if there isn't any,you can take a root and boil it, add some sweetener, and there you go. Just make sure you save some for me. Hec | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6134 Registered: 9-2006  |
I think annihilation-ism fails to take one more character of God into consideration, and that is his immovability. The Bible says that in him there is no shadow of turning. Annihilation-ism tries to move God out of the way to achieve its own ends. No pun intended. Even the demons know that in him there is no shadow of turning as demonstrated in the demons statement to Jesus in Matthew 8:29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time? Said the instructor of theology when discussing the serious subject of hell, hell is locked from the inside by the very people and other beings being punished, they hate God. Jesus was not showing mercy when he allowed the demons to enter into the pigs, they knew, and so did Jesus, that it was not yet the time, the way I understand it. The demons asked, what do we have to do with you, Son of God, and people ask the same question today, 'What do I have to do with Jesus, Son of God?' we either desire him or reject him, there is no middle ground. In the end, the sinner will still reject him. River | ||
| Heretic Registered user Username: Heretic Post Number: 282 Registered: 2-2005 |
Huh? If God doesn't have to punish sin then why on earth did Jesus have to die as our Substitute, "smitten" and "stricken" by God the Father? If God is just He MUST punish sin. | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 593 Registered: 12-2007 |
I dont think there is any question that God will and must punish sin... there is just disagreement as far as understanding how long that "punishment" will last. Will the punishment be a conscious torment through all eternity... or conscious punishment for a period of time determined by God and THEN a complete destruction of all consciousness of and separation from God through "annihilation" ? I don't know the answer. BUT I know that GOD does and I trust HIM completely that which ever way He handles the situation it will be the RIGHT way. HE is God, it can be nothing less. Francie | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3191 Registered: 10-2004 |
Francie, What does Revelation 20:10 say about how long the torment lasts? Jeremy | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 595 Registered: 12-2007 |
Jeremy, Rev 20:10 " And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are also, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." Which gives me more questions than answers... As I read that,,, this thought came to mind... it says that the DEVIL was thrown into the lake of fire where the BEAST and the FALSE PROPHET are and THEY will be tormented day and night forever and ever.... and it says "where the beast and the false prophet ARE... Are they (the beast and false prophet) already there and the devil will at a later time be put there with them ? Sounds like it.... and is it POSSIBLE that a "forever and ever torment" (might be) reserved ONLY for the Devil, the Beast, and the false prophet ? I am asking if that is a possibility only because farther down in Revelation 20.... it tells about the books being opened (notice this is AFTER the Devil is thrown into the pit with the beast and false prophet) but then in verse 13 "..... and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. (I thought we were NOT judged by our "deeds" but by our faith or our lack of faith ?) (14) "THEN death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This IS the second death, the lake of fire." And then in Chapter 21:4 "and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes and there will NO LONGER BE ANY DEATH, there will no longer be any MOURNING or CRYING or PAIN, the first things have passed away." (if the lake of fire IS the second death, and if "there will no longer be any death", then how can "death" as in "the lake of fire" be "forever" ?? And if there will NO LONGER BE any mourning, or crying or PAIN" (because those things have passed away) then HOW could there still BE pain (torment) in a never ending hell ? Since those things are to "pass away" and all things are to be made NEW. Verse 5: "And He who sits on the throne said "BEHOLD, I AM making ALL THINGS NEW." "ALL things" About now you are probably thinking I am a hopeless basket case of confusion.... me too :-( (what is the difference between the "beast" and the "devil"? and why does it say "false prophet" and not "false prophets" ? Is there only one ?) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11071 Registered: 12-2003  |
Francie, Revelation 19 describes God sending the beast and the false prophet into the lake of fire PRECEEDING the millennium. The beast and false prophet show up in Revelation 13. The beast out of the sea is the creature that becomes the anti-christ, according to Revelation 17 on whom the prostitute Babylon rides. The beast gains its power from the dragon, or Satan. The false prophet seduces the world into worshiping the beast and his image. These are apparently political powers/kings who derive their power from Satan himself. The beast and false prophet are thrown into the lake of fire before the first resurrection and the millennium. Revelation 21:4, as Jeremy has pointed out earlier somewhere, does not refer to hell. It is a description of the new heaven and earth. It is describing eternal life after the great white throne judgment when the wicked are sentenced to hell. Whatever/wherever hell is, it is not part of "heaven". The saved will not have any more pain or crying or mourning. They will not be eternally grieving for the lost because God will comfort them. Also, the judgment of Revelation 20 is the judgment of the wicked. Their lives will reflect their unbelief. Romans 8 talks about the deeds of the flesh and the deeds of the Spirit. The Piper sermon Jackob linked last week discusses what it means for the saved to "put to death the deeds of the flesh". If we are in Christ, our sins are covered by His blood. The sins our flesh tempts us to commit are sins Jesus has already died for. They can be put to death because Jesus' death has already paid for them. Those who are not in Christ, however, do not have Jesus' blood covering their sin. Their sin—deeds of the flesh—will testify against them in the judgment because they are not forgiven and covered. Colleen | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 1032 Registered: 10-2008 |
One more thought to what you've written above, Colleen (thanks for the post above), concerning the verses in Revelation.
This is nearly the end of Revelation and after it has described heaven ... Rev. 22 references Jesus IS coming and an exhortation to John to not seal up the words of this book - Revelation. What struck me though was this showing that there is an "outside" to the New Jerusalem and outside is where those who have not received Christ ARE. I don't think this is "referring" to a burned up, annihilated group - not according to the tenses of the verb in this passage. I don't want to read more into this verse than is there - but I did find it interesting that even in Rev. 22 (the last chapter of the Bible) those who are not Christ's are referenced as being outside the New Jerusalem. I actually came across this verse earlier when reading this thread - a verse I hadn't seen before. Just thought I'd share. Keri | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 598 Registered: 12-2007 |
Colleen Thank you for your post for clearing up a couple things for me. Unfortunately I still have questions... You said : " The beast and false prophet are thrown into the lake of fire before the first resurrection and the millennium." I remember hearing Mark Martin in one of his sermons saying (talking of the verse that says "the DEVIL was thrown into the lake of fire where the BEAST and the FALSE PROPHET are and THEY will be tormented day and night forever and ever...."that when it says " where the beast and false prophet ARE (he emphasized the "ARE")it means they are already there. Q. 1. Does it mean they are there NOW (where they "ARE") or does it just mean that is where they are (will be) at the time the devil is thrown in with them ? Because it cant be both ways :-{ Maybe it is just ME,, and maybe I am just being really dense (stupid) here but I still do not think I got an answer to this question.... When it says "the DEVIL was thrown into the lake of fire where the BEAST and the FALSE PROPHET are and THEY will be tormented day and night forever and ever..." Q 2. Is it POSSIBLE that a "forever and ever torment" (might be) reserved ONLY for the Devil, the Beast, and the false prophet ? (because it is talking about the devil, beast and false prophet and then it says "THEY will be tormented day and night forever and ever.") Is that a POSSIBILITY ? Q 3. And IF that is a possibility, could it just be POSSIBLE that the concepts of ETERNAL hell (for the devil, beast and false prophet) and an (eventual) annihialation (everyone else) could BOTH be correct ? Because it says : "THEN death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This IS the second death, the lake of fire." Chapter 21:4 "and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes and there will NO LONGER BE ANY DEATH, there will no longer be any MOURNING or CRYING or PAIN, the first things have passed away." Q. 4 If the lake of fire IS the second death, and if "there will no longer be any death", then how can "death" as in "the lake of fire" be "forever" ?? Q 5. And if there will NO LONGER BE any mourning, or crying or PAIN" (because those things have passed away) then HOW could there still BE pain (torment) in a never ending hell ? (Since those things are to "pass away" and all things are to be made NEW.) Verse 5: "And He who sits on the throne said "BEHOLD, I AM making ALL THINGS NEW." "ALL things" I do understand that ALL things in the new earth will be made new, God will comfort us and there will be no more death, crying or pain in Heaven or on the new earth. BUT, I do NOT understand the concept of (if God is to make ALL things new) ALL things would not be made "new" if there is still (somewhere) a ever burning Hell full of tortured souls. Just because hell may be out of our sight somewhere does not mean that we would not be aware of its existence. Please dont mis understand, I am NOT judging Gods wisdom here, He is God and He will do as He wills, and I am confident He will do what needs to be done in the best way that it can be done.. but I keep thinking that if He will make ALL things new, then why would He keep an everlasting burning place of tortured souls through all of eternity ? Would it not be a constant grieving on Gods heart to keep such a place throughout all eternity ? I dont want God to be grieving through eternity.... He would be giving US comfort so that WE would not grieve.. but what about HIM ? What about His heart ? It just makes me feel so bad to think that HE would keep such a place going forever... for what purpose ? If He will make ALL things NEW.. what would be the reason to keep HELL going through eternity ? Why grieve HIS heart that way ? Just makes me sad to think of my Lord being sad.:-{ | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11072 Registered: 12-2003 |
Francie, first, Revelation 19 describes the beast and the false prophet being thrown into the lake of fire at the end of Armageddon and before the first resurrection. The beast is the anti-christ, and the false prophet his religious henchman. They have not appeared yet, so they cannot yet be thrown into the Lake of Fire. That is still to come. Second, Jesus clearly said the wicked would go into eternal punishment. Moreover, the anti-christ will be a human, and so will the false prophet. People are clearly being condemned to eternal punishment according to the words of Scripture. The Bible doesn't suggest anywhere that there is an eternal punishment for the devil and the beast and the false prophet but annihilation for everyone else unsaved. Third, death as we know it is a different phenomenon from the "second death". Death as we know it involves the body and the spirit separating. The spirit goes to God; the body goes to the ground. This "first death" is described in the Bible as "sleep"--by Jesus and also by Paul. It is "sleep" because it is a "reversible" phenomenon. Jesus broke the power of death; He came back from the state of being physically and spiritually separated. Interestingly, Revelation 20 doesn't say the lost "die". It says they will be tormented for ever and ever. The term "death" in Revelation 20 applies not to the people but to the lake of fire. Now, the grave stands for "death". But the Lake of Fire represents the "second death". The quality, the actual specifics of the second death are different from the first death. The first death is a "sleep", with the body in the ground and the spirit going back to God. The second death is the Lake of Fire which the wicked go to after being resurrected. They are removed from their state in the first death in order to go to the "second death". We have to understand that our definitions are based on our life right now, limited as we are by sin and three dimensions. Eternity is different. I don't know exactly HOW it is different, but it is NOT the "passing of time". It is timeless, and humans, both the living and those experiencing the Lake of Fire which is the "second death", will be in different states than anyone is in now. All will have been resurrected, body and soul reunited. The "second death" is about being eternally disconnected from God. In the first death, believers are never separated from God. In other words, the essence of "death" is not "lack of knowing" or "non-exitence". It is separation from the Light of Life! Death is actually what all of us are born into. We have to be born from above in order to escape death. Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3192 Registered: 10-2004 |
Skeeter, Pastor Mark didn't mean that they are there now, but that that they are already there at the time the devil is thrown in, and have been there for 1,000 years at that point. Like Colleen said, Revelation 19 makes this clear. Also, the fate of all the unsaved is the same fate as those in Revelation 20:10--they are thrown into the same eternal lake of fire, which is the second death. Annihilation is not the second death. The Lake of Fire itself is the second death. See also Revelation 14:9-11.
I already dealt with this earlier in this thread. You have to read those verses in context. Verses 4-5 only apply to "he who overcomes" (verse 7, in other words, the saved) and not to the lost (verse 8). See my previous post here: http://www.formeradventist.com/discus/messages/11/9846.html?1268166221#POST130320
You are making God sound like a human. God is outside of time (timeless), and is immutable and impassible. And Hell is part of God's infinite justice and wrath, which are two off His eternal, immutable attributes. Jeremy (Message edited by jeremy on March 22, 2010) | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 600 Registered: 12-2007 |
I thought Jesus is "fully God" AND 'fully human"? Are you saying that God does not have feelings ? He loved us enough to send His only Son... I believe His love is very much a "feeling" and part of His "immutable attributes" also. He may not be "Human" as we are,,, but I believe He certainly does have "feelings". I really do not mean to be argumentative , I am just trying to sort things out in a way that makes sense to me and so far a whole lot of things just dont add up. Maybe it is time for me to just shut up for a while and stop questioning and just listen and pray about things until I do not feel so confused. I apologize if I have made anyone uncomfortable with my questions. Francie | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3193 Registered: 10-2004 |
Francie, No, your questions are fine. You haven't made me, or anyone else I'd guess, feel uncomfortable. Yes, Jesus is fully human (and thus has human feelings), as well as being fully God. But His humanity does not change His deity in any way. And since God is infinite, outside of time, and immutable, He does not have feelings the way that we humans do. Jeremy (Message edited by jeremy on March 22, 2010) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11074 Registered: 12-2003 |
Francie, you're not making anyone uncomfortable. The problem here is that we learned, as Adventists, that God pretty much feels and reacts as we do. In fact, our emotions are one of the main ways we thought we were in His image! God, though, is GOD--and He is not moved to act based on emotions as we are. Moreover, I don't believe God would be more sad, if He were plagued by sadness, if His creations were in hell than if they ceased to exist. Either way would be an eternal loss. Jesus the man does have human feelings, but they do not override His eternal deity and make Him behave in a way He heals even in us. When Revelation says He will wipe away all our tears, that is a statement of our experience in eternal life. It is not a statement about hell. God has not told us exactly HOW it will all "work". But He has told us that to reject the Lord Jesus means we spent an eternity in punishment. It's OK, Francie, to stop trying to analyze it and instead just to ask God to teach you truth in His time frame. He is faithful! Colleen | ||
| Heretic Registered user Username: Heretic Post Number: 283 Registered: 2-2005 |
Just a few questions/thoughts: If God feels sorry for us to the point that this emotion influences a decision to put us out of our misery, why did Jesus have to suffer under God's wrath for our sin as a substitute? Couldn't God have simply been merciful and forgiven us without it? Aren't there certain things God CANNOT do without violating His holy nature? (Message edited by Heretic on March 23, 2010) | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 603 Registered: 12-2007 |
Colleen, Yes, I agree with what you said, eternal loss is still eternal loss if it is in hell or complete non existence either one. I am sure you are also right when you say it is ok to stop trying to analyze it..... sometimes I tend to analyze things to death in searching for answers :-/ My mind goes in a dozen different directions asking myself all the why's and what ifs. Just havent ever learned how to stop doing that and focus on one thought at a time... maybe thats why I was always just an "average" student throughout school.... lack of being able to concentrate on just one thing at a time.. even when I talk to people directly and try to hold a conversation all these other things keep popping up and out of my mouth and sometimes I never do get back to my starting line of thought to finish what I was gonna say.. sigh... maybe its a learning disorder of some kind,, I dunno. So if any of you meet me and I cant seem to hold a train of thought through a full conversation... just know I am not doing it on purpose.. it is frustrating to later realize I didnt really say what I intended to say. Oh well. When I get to Heaven the Lord will fix that part of me along with all the other out of whack stuff. 8-> Francie | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 951 Registered: 3-2009 |
Colleen said:
I couldn't agree more. Either way it would be an eternal loss.
God does not put us out of our misery. He punishes us eternally with annihilation. That is eternal punishment. Hec |
