| Author | Message | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11012 Registered: 12-2003  |
Grace, I just saw your post. It's excellent, and you've made a very important point. This questions DOES boil down to who we think God is. I've been studying Romans 9 and 10 lately, and it's very, very clear: we do not question God. Adventism taught us the opposite—not only were we expected to question God, but we were taught to believe that He was obligated to answer us. Nothing could be further from the truth. God is sovereign and completely "other" than us. He created us. He is not like us. He made us in His image, not the other way around. And being made in His image doesn't make us "god-like". It makes us His creations, bearing His life. We don't decide what qualities make God "loving". God's love is completely incomprehensible to us. He is so much bigger than we can perceive--and the reality of Him includes His wrath against sin. Yet our Adventist paradigm taught us that WE define "Love". We get to say what would make God "loving". NO! God defines Himself, and we are to submit to His reality and allow Him to reveal Himself to us. And, as Romans 9 and 10 keep repeating, "those who trust in Him will not be disappointed". We don't trust Him because we finally understand how He works. We trust Him even though we don't know everything about Him. As Romans 10 says, He is "abounding in riches for all who call on Him. For whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." We only begin to realize those riches when we let go of our notion that God has to answer to us. We do not judge God; we do not test God. God relentlessly pursues us and causes us to bump into deep frustration until we give up to Him our notions of who we think He is. When we've finally given up our control over who God is to us, i{then} He can begin to reveal Himself! Colleen | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 1006 Registered: 10-2008 |
Grace, You articulated in such a clear way how my understanding of God has changed after accepting the doctrine of hell. Another thought I had was that I, too, trust God in ways that I never did before. I thought I trusted Him before - but now, it is at a level I don't think I can even articulate (do I consistently trust Him that way now - sure wish I did! But I know I don't always). I think of the end of the book of Job. God tells Job, "Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me if you have understanding. Who determined its measurements - surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it? (Job chapters 38 - 41; ESV) Job responds in Job 42 and repents in dust and ashes. This is a man that just lost everything. Though he didn't sin scripture says! That is NOT the point of His repentance. He just didn't understand Who God was ... Job confesses, "I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted." Grace, you are right - I didn't trust God with my "stuff" as an Adventist - sometimes I thought I did - but not really. Now I do at a different level - though I waver from time to time and need my brothers and sisters in Christ to remind me that God is big enough for my "stuff" and totally trustworthy. Grace, you wrote, "In many ways Adventists don't know Who He is." That really resonates with me, too. This may sound harsh - but it is not meant to ... it is only how I understand things now ... I worshiped a "false" god as an Adventist - one that is not Biblical. The Adventist god was one on trial, vindicated by his creation, changed his mind, was untrustworthy - especially since he put his hand over scripture so William Miller made the mistake and predicted Jesus return in the 1800's, the god of Adventism deceives for his purposes, and sin is not that big of a deal to the god of Adventism, and the god of Adventism created mankind cause he was lonely cause a 1/3 of the angels left heaven. Now my view of God continues to be transformed; though my mind doesn't always wrap around it all. He is Sovereign, didn't need to create mankind, because He is complete in Himself, Sin is more serious than I ever thought, God is more kind, more loving, more full of grace, than I can wrap my mind around. He is SO worthy of praise - Look at the book of Revelation and the songs the saints break into, "Holy, Holy, Holy" ... and He WILL glorify Himself, He doesn't go back on His promises - they are sure; He does not decieve, because He can't lie ... and I know I'm not doing Him any justice even trying to put into words a God that is outside of space and time, the Alpha and Omega. Colleen, appreciated your post as well - as you defined what I need to do as I approach scripture and struggle. Hec and Skeeter, I do get what you are saying. I certainly "don't get it all" and often feel like what you described Skeeter. This past week I had to read through 1 John. I couldn't see past my previous understandings as an Adventist. I was totally baffled by the verses that were ingrained in me as an Adventist. I even asked the teaching leader to pray for me - cause my mind went into a fog and I just couldn't get past the familiar verses I knew before. I read 1 John through each day ... and several days in a row I didn't see any change in my understanding. Finally, a breakthrough - but I can still say - I certainly don't "get it all" - though I'm learning and growing and hungry and thirsty for the Word. This discussion has been good and I have appreciated all the different thoughts. Keri | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 2026 Registered: 5-2007  |
This thread is starting to sound like what God wanted to teach Job: Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind and said: "Dress for action like a man; I will question you, and you make it known to me. Will you even put me in the wrong? Will you condemn me that you may be in the right? Have you an arm like God, and can you thunder with a voice like his? "Adorn yourself with majesty and dignity; clothe yourself with glory and splendor. Pour out the overflowings of your anger, and look on everyone who is proud and abase him. Look on everyone who is proud and bring him low and tread down the wicked where they stand. Hide them all in the dust together; bind their faces in the world below. Then will I also acknowledge to you that your own right hand can save you. (Job 40:6-14 ESV) God continues his discourse with Job in the rest of Chapter 40 and Chapter 41. Then, we learn what Job’s response was: Then Job answered the LORD and said: "I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted. 'Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?' Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand, things too wonderful for me, which I did not know. 'Hear, and I will speak; I will question you, and you make it known to me.' I had heard of you by the hearing of the ear, but now my eye sees you; therefore I despise myself, and repent in dust and ashes." (Job 42:1-6 ESV) Perhaps what Job learned we should also learn as to the sovereignty of God? P.S. Keri, I posted before I read your posting. Fearless Phil (Message edited by philharris on March 05, 2010) | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 1007 Registered: 10-2008 |
Hey Phil! Give your wife a big hug for me! It was great to have seen you both a few weeks ago!!!! Just had to interject that  . Keri P.S. Phil, I love it when the Spirit gives us similar thoughts at the same time . | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 560 Registered: 12-2007 |
"We don't trust Him because we finally understand how He works. We trust Him even though we don't know everything about Him. As Romans 10 says, He is "abounding in riches for all who call on Him. For whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." AMEN ! AMEN ! and again I say AMEN! Skeeter | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 901 Registered: 3-2009 |
Collen and others, thank you for your replies. Grace says:
I understand that we are more than physical material. We do have a spirit. What I cannot see anywhere is where it says that that spirit is eternal, non-ceasing, non capable of dying. If we accept Jesus, He gives us eternal life, but if we don't accept Him, we will not have eternal life. (If you are dead (separated from God) suffering in hell (whatever that might be) you are dead in the sense of separation, but not dead in the sense of existence. You still exist, you still live. If you are not alive, you cannot suffer. Animals die. They go into non existence. People are not like animals. They have a spirit, but nowhere I read that that spirit is not capable of dying. And so unless you have Jesus in you, you will die including your spirit. Unless we are ready to say that everybody has eternal life. Some in bliss in heaven, and some suffering in hell. Hec | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3167 Registered: 10-2004  |
Hec, We are all born with a dead spirit. Anybody who has not been saved (and their spirit given life) already has a dead spirit. Their spirit does not have life even now. Dead does not mean non-existent. Life does not equal existence. Eternal life means knowing God (John 17:3). Also, how can a lake of fire burn up a spirit? Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on March 05, 2010) | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1891 Registered: 4-2000  |
The idea that there is no ultimate justice or final punishment for sin is repugnant. Annihilation does not constitute the ultimate punishment. Rather, annihilation would be the END of punishment. It would mean relief for the wicked in hell who are suffering for their sins. The ungodly in hell would like for annihilation to be true. As Jonathan Edwards noted more than two centuries ago: "Wicked men will hereafter earnestly wish to be turned to nothing and forever cease to be that they might escape the wrath of God." Edwards further spoke the truth when he declared, "the Scripture is very express and abundant in this matter that the eternal punishment is in sensible misery and torment and not annihilation." As we might expect of one aspect of God's truth, it coheres well with other biblical teachings. In what sense is a human being who dies and ceases to exist the same person as the one who is recreated by God at the resurrection? Advocates of the extinction/re-creation view do not claim to be able to prove continuity of personhood between the person who dies and the one who is raised in the resurrection; the best they can do is argue for the possibility of continuity of personal identity. Being in the remembrance of God, like a fallen sparrow, is not very comforting during our last moment of life. Traditionalism, not annihilationism, correctly integrates Christology with the doctrine of hell. Jesus spoke more often about hell than about heaven. Indeed, we have a heaven to gain and a hell to shun. Now let's be absolutely frank, would you really consider someone a Christian who didn't believe in heaven being an eternal, real physical place? Think about it! Since the doctrine of hell is so clearly taught by Jesus and the NT writers as being eternal as well, can we really consider someone who holds a totally different view as a firm believer in the essentials of the Christian faith? Yes, as Adventists, we were all deceived, but ultimately we are responsible to God for what we personally believe. We are not authorized to continually blame Seventh-day Adventism for all of our false notions, emotional feelings, willful ignorance, unbelief, and misinterpretations. This topic is a matter of life and death for all. Nothing is more important from Genesis to Revelation. Certainly, if we are even remotely honest, we must admit that conditionalism, not traditionalism, is Satan's favorite view of death. The devil doesn't want anyone to believe in a real, physical place called hell--even though he himself believes the biblical view. Like many criminals in our world today, Satan prefers that human beings believe in the quick-fix of obliteration--a mere slap on the wrist for a profane life will suffice. Common sense dictates that without a hell there is no need for a Savior. Little needs to be said about the absurdity of suggesting that the Creator should suffer more than the cumulative sufferings of all of mankind, if there were no hell to save us from. Without hell, there is no need for salvation. Truly, one could easily endure a flashing moment in annihilation. So, why be a Christian? The very worst that could happen, under annihilationism, would be akin to the discomfort of a flu shot or blood draw. All in all, common sense dictates that there must be a hell. Without hell, the wrongs of Hitler's Holocaust will never be righted. Justice would be impugned if, after slaughtering six million Jews, Hitler merely died in the arms of his mistress with no eternal consequences. The ancient heroes knew better than to think such a thing. David knew that for a time it might seem as though the wicked prosper in spite of their deeds, but in the end justice will be served. Christ graphically portrayed the finality of eternal torment in hell (e.g., Matthew 5-7, Matthew 24-25, Luke 16, etc.). The real truth is that it really does matter what one believes about death and the afterlife. As is common with other doctrinal topics, official Adventism provides different meanings for words like eternal, death, destroy, hell, Abraham's bosom, devour, grave, perish, pits of darkness, tormented, soul, Sheol, Hades, Gehenna, forever, etc. What makes this topic so very important to get right is that it affects the natures of God, man, and salvation. If we don't get Genesis right, it casts a shadow upon the entire Bible. Hermeneutical principles, in defining biblical figures of speech, metaphors, places, context, syntax, grammar, and words, are essential in understanding and deciphering this central truth of Scripture. Sadly, the SDA view of death adversely places its tentacles in salvific areas such as regeneration and faith. These are areas where the rubber hits the road. Moreover, holding unto the SDA view of death prevents one from getting the Gospel right. It is impossible to overemphasize the importance of this salvational topic. There are not two ways to understand or interpret this subject. One view is biblical and the other view is unbiblical. One thing is very certain--they can't both be right. The reason this thread is so lengthy is due to Adventism's intentional ambiguity and complexity. Getting the Gospel right should be our top priority in spite of our past deception. Admittedly, the Adventist view of death was the last deception I surrendered to Jesus after 50 years. One could reasonably argue that I was a slow learner. However, with God's own timing, He didn't leave me where He found me. Soli Deo Gloria! Need some extra help unplugging from the soul extinction/re-creation view? I heartily recommend Dr. Robert Morey's classic, 315-page book on this topic entitled, "Death and the Afterlife." What makes this book so helpful to Adventists and former Adventists is that Dr. Morey goes point by point over the claims of the late SDA apologist and conditionalist, L. E. Froom. The late Dr. Walter Martin said of this book: "The most comprehensive biblical study of the subject in the last half century!" Simply order it directly from the author's online bookstore at: www.faithdefenders.com . Dennis Fischer, biblical correspondent on issues related to death and hell www.truthorfables.com E-mail: dfministries@gmail.com | ||
| Snowboardingmom Registered user Username: Snowboardingmom Post Number: 554 Registered: 11-2005 |
That's right, Jeremy. Another thought on Hell... I used to think that Hell was where Satan "reigned" and that it was a place where God was totally absent. I don't think that thought is correct anymore. If God is truly omnipresent, then His presence will be in Hell. "Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence? If I ascend into heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there."--Psalm 139:7,8, NKJV Whether there's real eternal flames or not (which I actually think it will be "burning" like the Bible says it is), I think the real "punishment" will be being in the presence of an "all-consuming-fire God" (Hebrews 12:29) without having His mercy to protect us from His "fire". Those who will be in Hell are those who have never wanted, and have actually despised, being in God's presence. In their time on earth, they did everything they could to "avoid" God. In Hell, they will be fully exposed to the very One they wanted nothing to do with. In my opinion, that will be the worst of the punishment: to be fully in God's presence, experiencing God's justice and wrath. God is not actively torturing them for the sake of torturing them. He is not cruel. He IS, and they will KNOW it. So the "torture" is the side-effect of them not wanting anything to do with God. It's not because God is cruel. Grace | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 947 Registered: 5-2007 |
Colleen, How do you know when after you have done your best to give up your confusions and understandings to God, that afterwards you have been shown the correct understanding when your understanding is in conflict with those around you? I appreciated your two posts above and I do believe you are speaking of one of the pathways to God's dealings with our minds and souls. Maybe this is more about finding our peace in letting go of what we cannot grasp anyway. Not really sure what to do with what is left of me after that. Jim | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1892 Registered: 4-2000 |
Grace, Someone rightly stated: "There are no atheists in hell--only believers." Dennis Fischer (Message edited by Dennis on March 06, 2010) | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6069 Registered: 9-2006  |
Jim, God will take what is left of you, and start revealing himself to you, not only that he will take you and put you in some ministry to others. I believe you said the secret word, just ask him to take what is left of you. | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 561 Registered: 12-2007 |
Dennis, I have been giving some thought to your post #1891 above.. and I have a couple questions concerning especially one paragraph,,, I am hoping you will not take my questions the wrong way, I am looking for answers not an argument :-) I truly believe that YOU believe everything you have posted. This is the paragraph that really stood out to me. "Moreover, holding unto the SDA view of death prevents one from getting the Gospel right. It is impossible to overemphasize the importance of this salvational topic. There are not two ways to understand or interpret this subject. One view is biblical and the other view is unbiblical. One thing is very certain--they can't both be right. The reason this thread is so lengthy is due to Adventism's intentional ambiguity and complexity. Getting the Gospel right should be our top priority in spite of our past deception. Admittedly, the Adventist view of death was the last deception I surrendered to Jesus after 50 years. One could reasonably argue that I was a slow learner. However, with God's own timing, He didn't leave me where He found me. Soli Deo Gloria! " If I may break it down into areas of my concerns... "Moreover, holding unto the SDA view of death prevents one from getting the Gospel right." I no longer believe the SDA view of death, as in "soul sleep" but wondering, Are you saying that the entire Gospel is centered on understanding this one subject ? "It is impossible to overemphasize the importance of this salvational topic." So, are you saying that understanding this topic is a matter that can ensure that we are either lost or saved ? If so, what happened to "Believe on the name of Jesus Christ and you WILL be saved"? There goes our assurance of salvation. I have not seen (have I missed it?) anywhere in the Bible that says that we must understand this or we will be lost. "There are not two ways to understand or interpret this subject. One view is biblical and the other view is unbiblical." I am understanding from this statement that you are convinced beyond any doubt that YOUR view is the "biblical" view and anyone who does not share the same view you have on the subject, their view is "unbiblical" ? "One thing is very certain--they can't both be right." Perhaps.But at this time I am not completely convinced of either way. Since this is a matter that I may never fully resolve in my own mind, and since I personally do not believe it is a "salvational issue" (but a relationship with Jesus Christ IS )Would it be wrong to make a decision to not make a decision ? To just leave it up to God to do His will ? If I understand it or not does not change what will be done. If I am willing to accept that Gods way will indeed be the RIGHT way whatever that way turns out to be, is that so wrong ? "The reason this thread is so lengthy is due to Adventism's intentional ambiguity and complexity." I dont know that my opinion on this particular subject would be any different if I had NOT come out of Adventism. "Getting the Gospel right should be our top priority in spite of our past deception." I thought our "top priority" was Love to God and love to our fellow man. Is not the Gospel pretty much summed up with that ? Or am I wrong ? "Admittedly, the Adventist view of death was the last deception I surrendered to Jesus after 50 years. One could reasonably argue that I was a slow learner. However, with God's own timing, He didn't leave me where He found me. Soli Deo Gloria! " Do you think it is possible that this subject is of such importance to YOU for that reason ? Maybe there are DIFFERENT subjects that are of more importance to others. Then you signed with this: "Dennis Fischer, biblical correspondent on issues related to death and hell " I cant help but wonder,,, since you are a "biblical correspondent on issues related to death and hell" it is obvious that you spend a LOT of time on these subjects which tells me that they are matters of UTMOST IMPORTANCE to you. Dennis, I do not say this to me mean, or to make you mad, but because I am honestly concerned for you. Dennis , (you dont need to answer if you dont want, but please take time to think about it) Are you generally a happy person ? Do you feel confident in your relationship with Jesus ? I just wonder because reading over so many of your posts you seem to be such a serious person. Do you think that just maybe you might be spending so much time studying and thinking about the subjects of dying and death, that just maybe you might be missing out on the JOY of being a Christian ? Do you have the inner peace that comes with knowing you are in the hands, heart and mind of our Savior ? And if so, why such obsession with dying and death ? There is so much in the Bible that can give us that joy and inner peace ,,, Wouldnt we do well to dwell more on THOSE things ? God will do what He wills with those who are not in Heaven, and I trust Him completely to do what is right and true and just, because He is God He can do no other. But I do not feel that my salvation depends on my knowing with certainty what will be done with those in Hell. My knowing, or not knowing will make no difference in what will be done. I have heard it said that if we believe in the eventual complete and total destruction of those in Hell that we wont mind sinning because we know Hell will not be through all eternity. I find no reason to believe that. I want NOTHING more than to spend eternity with our Lord and it is beyond anything I can imagine to be eternally separated from Him, if by being eternally "alive" and in Hell, or if totally and completely destroyed to the smallest particle and being separated from Him in that way. Neither seems any more acceptable or tolerable to me than the other. I have also read on here that "destroyed" does not mean totally gone, but changed in some way so that the souls are still able to know and feel that they are in torment in the fires of an everlasting Hell. Well, I am afraid I do not agree that can be the ONLY possibility.. I believe that as GOD HE is quite able to destroy both body AND soul utterly and completely with no trace of ANYTHING left at all. I am not saying He WILL do that, only that He is able to do it if that is His decision And it IS His decision to make not ours and our opinions one way or the other arent going to make any difference in what will be. I want to believe that my family and friends will share in the joy of Heaven.. but I realize we are each judged individually,and while I am hopeful and even "believe" I will see them in Heaven.. I am not all knowing,, and so I must accept that IF anyone I hope to see is not there.. there will be a reason for it and that reason will be made clear when the time comes. I find my relationship is the strongest with Jesus when I dwell on His love and his unmerited acceptance of us as His children, when I feel the JOY of His love in my very soul. Should we fear God ? Certainly . He is all powerful and I think a healthy amount of fear is warranted because He IS all powerful, but I dont feel that "fear" should be all enveloping and depressing,, but more than a feeling of "fear" as a feeling of RESPECT for Him and His power and Glory. What a wonderful awesome God we have who has ALL power and yet has love for us. That should be enough to put joy into anyones heart.:-) Skeeter | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 902 Registered: 3-2009 |
Jeremy, I don't know how a spirit will burn in hell. (as it has been said before, it's possible that hell is not fire at all.) Whatever hell is, God is able to destroy, burn, kill, annihilate a spirit. No where does the Bible says that the spirit is not capable of been annihilated. I would like to get a hold of a passage that clearly stays that the spirit is nondestructive. Denis, You say:
First, if the doctrine of hell were so clearly taught as you state, we would no be having this thread. The very existence of this thread proofs that the doctrine is not that clearly taught. Second, Are you saying that if one doesn't agree with your understanding of hell, one is not a real believer? Are you saying that to be a Christian one have to agree with your understanding of hell? Are all the people who claim to be Christian (not SDA or JW) who believe different than you, not real Christians? Is there a clear biblical passage which teaches that believing as you believe is a standard by which to measure the reality of one's faith??
"akin to the discomfort of a flu shot or blood draw."? You wish. Is the reason why one accepts Jesus and wants salvation to avoid the punishment? Or is it love? "There is no need for a savior."? I could agree with you on that if the only reason for salvation would be to avoid the punishment, which in my opinion would be a very poor reason. Why would God want a relationship with me if the only reason I want it is to avoid punishment. That would sound like the slave and the master. I think God desires more, much more than that.
Maybe I'm mistaken, but I had the idea that salvational referred to salvation. A salvational topic would be one who is directly related to my salvation. Are you saying that now salvation is: faith + believe in hell as you do? Hec | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11013 Registered: 12-2003 |
Jim, I agree, actually, that letting go of what you cannot grasp—as long as the "letting go" is to God, not just passively surrendering to fate, is what God asks of us. When we "let go" to God, that release is not a passive acquiescence; it is an active choice to allow God to reveal Himself to you and to fill your uncertain heart with peace. After letting go of what you do not understand to God, He surprises you. He becomes more real, and you feel peace instead of the anxiety of confusion or uncertainty. I think, Jim, that your mental rationalizing and bargaining and analysis consume your internal energy so you do not have to be vulnerable internally with you own losses and realizations of denial and pain. I say this because I have such a history of this internal bargaining myself! I have driven myself crazy with my internal "management" over the years...and it never actually worked. I might be able to make one area of my life "conform" to reason and logic, but another area would spin out of control, and worry or fear or confusion would overwhelm me on another front. It's only in admitting I might be WRONG and allowing God to teach me truth that I've had resolution. And the resolution isn't a result of my own head succumbing to ignorance or blind faith. It's literally God beginning to fit the tiny pieces of widely disparate "puzzle pieces" of life together in ways I would never have thought they would fit. This resolution results after I give God my suppositions, approach His word daily with a prayer for Him to teach me what is true and real and to help me know Him in new ways. He Himself brings life to the words of Scripture, and He becomes more and more real. God will deal with what's left of you, Jim. It's that bottom layer of helpless Jim that God wants to rebuild so His truth will have a strong foundation of His own truth deeply woven into your spirit and mind. It's all about surrender—but not to fate or the unknown; it's about surrender to the sovereign God who made you and knows you better than you know yourself. Surrender to God doesn't mean you "see" what will happen. But it means God already sees, and He will hold you as He unfolds reality to you. Colleen | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11014 Registered: 12-2003 |
Skeeter, I want to comment on something you said: ''
You probably will agree with what I am about to say, but I feel I have to say it for the sake of all those who read and don't necessarily post. Loving God and man is a fruit of the gospel--but it is not the gospel. Paul summarizes the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15, and he states that it is the way which we are saved. It is this, articulated clearly and simply in 1 Cor 15:3-4)
One of the huge problems in the "emergent church" movement is that people confuse the gospel fruit with the gospel itself, preaching love for God and man and drawing people into service without first establishing the Gospel. Anyone involved in "loving God and man" without first submitting their heart and life to the gospel is not saved, no matter how "loving" they are. Even telling people to avail themselves of God's love is useless apart from telling them how they may "access" God's love through the substitutionary death of Jesus on the cross and His resurrection. If we focus on the fruit without submitting to the gospel itself, we will be among those to whom Jesus says, "Depart from me; I never knew you." I agree with you that understanding hell is not requisite for us to be saved. The Lord Jesus reveals our sin to us and convicts us of our need to place our faith in the substitutionary death of Jesus in order to find forgiveness and life. Once the new birth happens, however, God's Spirit continues to reveal eternal reality to us. Because the resurrection and our new birth are so closely connected—Paul explains that it is the resurrection life of Jesus that brings our spirits to life when we trust Christ—the issue of hell eventually becomes important as well. I believe that the issue we face is that if we resist submitting our paradigm to the Lord Jesus for re-teaching and re-shaping, we begin to limit His power in our lives. It doesn't make us "unborn-again", but we can become quite stunted, and we cease to do the work of the Spirit and find ourselves doing good works from the flesh. I'm not saying that if you believe in annihilation you have become stunted; I'm merely saying that we have to be willing to give up that idea and allow Scripture to speak to us. We won't resolve this issue in a day—but God will bring us to a place of resolution in His time and way if we are willing not to have to know what is "right" and defend it. As Adventists, knowing that God "would never torture someone for eternity" was tantamount to being a Christian. We prided ourselves on understanding what God was "really like". Yet in so many many ways we were wrong; the issue of hell might be one more way we were wrong! We have to allow for that possibility. Once we allow for the possibility and actively ask God to teach us, reality begins to look different. Even if you understand "hell" the same way next week or month or year, if you are willing to let go of annihilation as being the only way God can be loving and admit the possibility that eternal hell might be part of God's love—just that release of your worldview to Him will begin to give you a deep peace and sense of awe that is missing while we hold onto our "comforting" opinion. We really can't embrace reality while we hold onto internal paradigms that feel comforting but are actually unexamined against Scripture. Colleen | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1893 Registered: 4-2000 |
Skeeter, Thank you for your comments. The big picture about the nature of God, man, and salvation begins in Genesis. There is no way that a conditionalist can understand regeneration--a requirement for salvation according to Jesus (see John 3:3). Being "born again" is not merely a mental assent to some list of beliefs. Without believing in the human spirit or soul, one cannot comprehend the new birth. I would be most foolish and negligent if I took the issues of death and hell lightly. You will be pleased to know that I don't think and dream about this topic 24/7 (smile). By the way, I didn't create or invent the eternal places of heaven and hell that Scripture clearly details. Most people easily agree with eternal bliss. After all, it is something they actually like to hear. However, hell is not a charming topic to even think about. Because of the emotional nature of this subject, we must strive to be honest and fair in our interpretation of Scripture (the hermeneutics of death). To approach the Bible determined to make it say what we want it to say is a disgrace. We should have the attitude of the Apostle Paul who said, "Let God be found true, though every man be found a liar" (Romans 3:4). Since I don't know what portions of conditionalism you still cling to, it is not possible for me to address your concerns in a precise manner. The topic of death and the afterlife involves many biblical doctrines--including regeneration, God's view of justice and judgment, eschatology, soteriology, Christology, pneumatology, hamartiology, angelology, etc. It is my intent to show that embracing any heresy or aberration, no matter how small, harmless, or insignificant it may seem, simply requires additional heresies to cover up the first one. As former Adventists, we have had firsthand experience in how this works. Yes, I am totally serious about the biblical view of death and the afterlife. This is not a laughing, gleeful matter. Salvational issues cannot be properly presented in a jovial or hilarious manner. I minister to people, on a daily basis, who are involved in this deception. Believe me, their conditionalism does not provide a happy picture. No heresy is harmless or unimportant. It involves so many other factors that a single heresy creates. This is why the Second Council of Constantinople in 533 A. D. formally and rightly condemned it. Truly, "in the multitude of counsellors there is safety" (Proverbs 11:14). This is not a fence-sitting topic. Most of what we know about hell was taught by Jesus Himself. We can fully trust the words from the lips of Jesus on every topic--including this one. Please join me in singing my testimony in song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIgErxNu6X4 In His power and for His glory, Dennis Fischer | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 562 Registered: 12-2007 |
Dennis, Thank you for your comments and thank you for understanding mine and not taking offense where none was meant. :-) You and others who have differing understandings of this are certainly giving me a lot to think about and I am very willing to submit myself to God and leave this up to Him to show me the truth on this matter and to help me see and understand clearly one way or other. (like you said, it cant be both ways) I believe He Will bring the truth to my understanding when the time is right. I can read and re read posts on here and they all make me think... I am still of a mind that I just dont know which is "truth" pertaining this matter, so I guess you would say that I am still "sitting on the fence" I prefer to think of it as just being willing to submit my mind and heart to God and being willing to accept that which ever way HE decides to handle the situation is completely up to Him and I KNOW that which ever way He handles it is going to be the RIGHT way. I will not think any less of Him which ever way He does it. I know that as a loving God it must break His heart to have to punish His wayward children by either method.:-( But punishment is certain and only HE can decide which way it is to be done. I have confidence in Him that it will be fair, just and the right choice. Just because I admit that I do not honestly know does not mean that I do not trust His judgement, because I do, completely. Skeeter | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 563 Registered: 12-2007 |
Colleen, Yes, I DO agree COMPLETELY !!! : " Loving God and man is a fruit of the gospel--but it is not the gospel." and I thank you for clarifying that. I meant to add that verse (1 Cor 15:3-4)and failed to do so. Skeeter | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1894 Registered: 4-2000 |
Hec, Thank you for your participation in this discussion. Can one be a Christian who harbors unbelief in the clear words of Jesus about heaven and hell? For example, do you think a Christian is a person who actually denies the reality of heaven? Moreover, the topic of death and the afterlife involves many other salvational truths. The biblical truths of death and the afterlife are interwoven with other biblical teachings. So, being an interrelated topic, it does not harmlessly stand alone without affecting the essentials of the Christian faith. By the way, primarily only Seventh-day Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses, and the Christadelphians (all three stemming from the Millerite deception of 1844) believe in conditionalism/soul extinction/re-creation. Like with the anti-Trinitarianism of the SDA pioneers, I am convinced that the SDA view of death was likewise based on their intense anti-Catholicism. They wanted absolutely nothing in common with Catholicism. Yet, ironically, the result is that the SDA soteriological views are much the same as Catholicism today. Oh yes, as you already know, both groups also believe in extrabiblical authority and are very hierarchical in organizational structure. The objection to the biblical view of death and the afterlife is largely based upon human sentiment alone. The doctrine about heaven is eagerly received because people emotionally like to hear it. So, all in all, the reality of hell is a tough sell to unwilling hearts. The doctrine of hell was so misunderstood and abhorred that it took Jesus Himself to set the record straight. Dennis Fischer |
