| Author | Message | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 353 Registered: 4-2007 |
‘So if they believe that their spirit is like an electrical pulse... how do you educate it? ;)’ With computers it’s called programming (brainwashing?) | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1909 Registered: 4-2000  |
FYI, the Worldwide Church of God has adopted a new name, "Grace Communion International." This is a good move on their part to distance themselves from Armstrongism, but it is also somewhat deceptive. Similarly, another cult, the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in Independence, Missouri is now called "Community of Christ." Again, these new names create confusion--even if they sound good. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 781 Registered: 2-2008  |
Jonvil~ very funny... it is "programming", that's why we have to clear our hard drives out when we exit! Dennis~ Thanks for that update on their names. Creating confusion or distractions is how their deceptions are carried out. vivian | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 935 Registered: 3-2009 |
It seems to me like we need one of those hard drive erasers that goes over the drive something like seven times to make sure it's clear. Hec | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6118 Registered: 9-2006  |
Quote: Of course, tongues speaking is akin to the extrabiblical revelations by Ellen White. In other words, God's divine revelations contained in Holy Scripture are insufficient for them. ___________________________________________________ Fischer, I have dealt with you on this before, no manifestation of the Holy Spirit is akin to the extrabiblical revelations by Ellen White. Nor do I think you have any evidence of Gods word being insufficient for these people. Why don't we stick with the real issues, or don't we have enough issues to deal with? River | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 2368 Registered: 8-2004  |
 Yep, River, you don't have to be a cessationist to see that EGW's messages are not from God. (Message edited by helovesme2 on March 15, 2010) | ||
| Animal Registered user Username: Animal Post Number: 742 Registered: 7-2008  |
Dennis...your statement has me scratching my head. You stated: Of course, tongues speaking is akin to the extrabiblical revelations by Ellen White. Speaking in tongues is a biblical fact. Bible calls it a spiritual gift. How can You compare that to EGW? Are you actually uplifting EGW messages and visions on the same level as scriptural speaking in tongues? Please explain, or have I misunderstood the thrust of your statement? ...Animal | ||
| Martinc Registered user Username: Martinc Post Number: 126 Registered: 9-2006 |
Both Dennis and River have rather eloquently stated their positions on tongues before. That debate is still available here online, no blood pressure meds needed. One thing we do know, EGW's revelations often contained "new light" such as the IJ, the Health Message, and the Sabbath Seal of God, that contradicted scripture. Regarding the gift of prophecy, she was a continualist, but only for herself. For everyone else, cessation. (Message edited by MartinC on March 15, 2010) | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6119 Registered: 9-2006 |
Right Martin, no blood pressure meds needed, the issues are, folks coming out of Adventism who are hurting. If you all don't have issues, then help me with mine huh? River | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 1020 Registered: 10-2008 |
Guess I just need to add my two cents here ... but as Martinc has said we don't need "no blood pressure meds" ... If I look at scripture and do a careful study of 1 Cor. 12-14; ... I come to the same conclusion as animal did above - that speaking in tongues is a Biblical fact and a spiritual gift that has not ceased - if it had ceased then we would not have the other gifts of the Spirit at this time ... I have several friends who do speak in tongues ... and I would never compare them and their gift to the extraBiblical teachings of Ellen White - especially when scripture does teach speaking in tongues. That comparison was completely "un-called" for Dennis, and out of line. But I agree with the others ... we do not need to get into a debate that raises blood pressure at this time ... others can find the "debate" on line. Keri | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 2046 Registered: 5-2007  |
I to have a number of friends who speak in tongues, a gift of the Holy Spirit that I don't have. They have been a blessing to me in ways that I can not deny. All things from God glorify God. Fearless Phil | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 1022 Registered: 10-2008 |
Yes, Phil ... well said. Keri | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6120 Registered: 9-2006 |
Heh heh! I was looking back through my files of conversations that I have saved over the last three years and some one posted this, I don't remember who, so I can't give them credit. _________________________________________________ The almost salvation plan What a great, thought-provoking thread. Salvation, dangling just out of reach, so true. I got to thinking about this almost gospel that is SDA, and began to list the "almosts." Jesus, the nearly God, provided a partial atonement, by which the believer is almost forgiven on the special 1844 Lay-Awake plan. The Almost Savior can only inspire somewhere between 10% and 50% assurance of salvation, depending on the believer's theology and self-deception skills. Of course, whenever he fails to keep the (partial) Law, he must wring out enough repentance to restore the previous level of assurance. Unfortunately, the believer also has been taught that as he approaches perfection, his confidence will actually decrease. Assurance is a guilty feeling, so depression is hope! _________________________________________________ One of the men in the new testament in Acts 26:28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian. He almost accepted the Gospel. Well...shoot, almost should be good enough, after all, its only a near miss! I almost won the lottery, why didn't I at least get a share of the money, if we almost accept Gods word as it reads, is that almost close enough? If we almost forgive others, won't they be forgiven? If I almost buy a spare tire, do I almost have one? If Jesus had almost fed the five thousand, would they have had anything to eat? Tell you what Phil, next time you get by, we'll almost have dinner, almost have fellowship, almost visit, how about it, will that be close enough? Maybe we can have an almost church! We'll name it the 'Almost Christian Church Of The Almost Brotherhood' Haaa! (:River P.S. If I almost post this, will it almost post? Fact is I think I will start accepting almost rent, I know my boss will be pleased, he'll give me an almost raise! | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1910 Registered: 4-2000 |
Animal, Thank you for your comments. Visioning is also biblical, but I no longer revere Ellen White's visions nor believe in extrabiblical revelations contained in modern visions. As former Adventists, we must be observant that what we exchange for Seventh-day Adventism is not worse or the same at best. I personally know of a young lady who speaks in tongues and has even been "slain in the Spirit" yet she uses the most foul language in her everyday conversations. Moreover, over and over again, I have observed that many of these people become most rude and inconsiderate whenever their practice is questioned. Charismatics are caught in a terrible tension as they try to hold onto the Bible while at the same time making experience their real authority. In short, when we are regenerated (born again), our sovereign and extravagant God gives us a full measure of His Spirit (no "second blessing" pending). As Charles Spurgeon rightly stated: "The grace that does not change your life will not save your soul." Dennis Fischer Today's Gem: "To read Scripture, but refuse to allow its commands to influence one's life, is the essence of sin." --John R. Frame | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6121 Registered: 9-2006 |
Thats it Fischer, I,ve had enough of you! I don't intend to go the second round with you. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11058 Registered: 12-2003  |
Dennis, I've known people who spoke in "tongues" and promoted a second-blessing experience, but they were personally compromised and deceitful. I've believed for a long time that deception mimics something real—and I believe that there are definitely people who claim charismatic gifts—but those gifts are deceptions of the REAL gifts of the Spirit. Ultimately, we know them by their fruit, Jesus said, not by their gifts. Jesus and Paul spoke about the reality of spiritual gifts that no human can generate. The gifts are biblical. But gifts never take the place of Jesus or knowing Him. In Matthew 7 Jesus addresses people who practiced spiritual gifts including casting out demons, healing, etc., yet He says, "I never knew you." Yet, those He knows also practice similar spiritual gifts. Ultimately, the gifts are not what determine whether or not a person is born again. The fruit of the Spirit reveals that reality. "Gifts" can come from either good or bad sources. Fruit (Gal 5:22-23), on the other hand, can only come from the Holy Spirit. Fruit is necessary if one's spiritual gifts are from God. And He does give people all the gifts listed in Romans 12 and 1 Cor 12 and 14. Colleen (Message edited by Colleentinker on March 16, 2010) | ||
| Snowboardingmom Registered user Username: Snowboardingmom Post Number: 558 Registered: 11-2005 |
Sorry, I can't let this go without saying something... Dennis, you said, "Moreover, over and over again, I have observed that many of these people become most rude and inconsiderate whenever their practice is questioned." You just compared the gift of tongues with the extrabiblical teachings and practices of Ellen White! Yeah... It's probably going to get a response that is not necessarily "polite". That is a highly offensive comparison. Would you expect any other reaction? For those who believe in the gifts of the Spirit, you are blatantly calling them "deceived", and claiming in a sense that they are being led by a different spirit. I don't know what other reaction you would expect. Grace (Message edited by snowboardingmom on March 16, 2010) | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1911 Registered: 4-2000 |
Grace, The young lady that uses foul language in everyday conversations is praying for my wife and I that we would find the same experience she did (smile). Her study group at a well-known, local charismatic church have joined her in that pursuit. Not surprisingly, another factor is that people who are caught up in emotionalism tend to react very emotionally when confronted with any question about their practice. Nowhere in Scripture do we see real gifts of the Spirit operating when someone is out of control or under some sort of supernatural seizure. Nowhere does the NT teach that the Spirit of God causes Christians to fall into a trance, faint, or lapse into frenzied behavior. On the contrary, "The fruit of the Spirit is...self control" (Galatians 5:22-23). Dennis Fischer | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1912 Registered: 4-2000 |
Grace, One more observation is that the last paragragh of my post #1911 aptly describes the experiences of Ellen White. Early Adventism was very charismatic--including their revered prophetess. Thus, the fact remains that Seventh-day Adventism was founded upon the deception of charismaticism. If in doubt, re-read SDA history. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Snowboardingmom Registered user Username: Snowboardingmom Post Number: 559 Registered: 11-2005 |
Dennis, I understand your wariness. It's obvious you have had some negative experience with people who claim to be "moving in the Spirit", when in reality, they are very much "moving in the flesh". Obviously, when flesh manifests itself under the guise of being "spiritual", things are going to go south fast. Having said that though, I just want to address what you said here: "Nowhere in Scripture do we see real gifts of the Spirit operating when someone is out of control or under some sort of supernatural seizure. Nowhere does the NT teach that the Spirit of God causes Christians to fall into a trance, faint, or lapse into frenzied behavior. On the contrary, "The fruit of the Spirit is...self control" (Galatians 5:22-23). From this statement, it is also obvious that you have never actually experienced the manifestation of the Holy Spirit in the form of the gifts that we are addressing. You are absolutely right--the Holy Spirit does not "seize us" and cause us to operate out of control. I'm sorry you have witnessed that and it has marred your thinking about it. If you would take the time to listen to some healthy spiritual people who operate within the gifts, you would find that NONE OF THEM would describe their experience as being out of control. I think that is one of the biggest misconceptions about the gift of tongues. I admit, I used to think that. But the person is in full control the entire time. Praying in tongues is just like praying normally. You have the power to start it, and you have the power to stop it. Have you ever been so overwhelmed by God's grace and mercy that you just feel as if you're going to burst? And you just want to shout out "Glory", "Hallelujah", "Praise God"? Have you ever been in the middle of worship at church, and felt as if you just want to keep singing praises to His name even after the song is over? Yeah, I guess you could call that "emotionalism". I call it worship. I don't lose control in those instances. When I'm singing at church, I don't keep singing when everyone else is done, even if I feel like I want to keep praising God. When I feel overwhelmed by God's goodness, I don't throw myself on the ground, rolling about, trying to get that "feeling" out. In fact, if that happened to me, I would freak out. You're right, one of the fruits of the Spirit is self-control. That's sort of how it's like to pray in tongues. You have control over it the entire time. But there is a part of you that longs for a deeper, and more passionate intimacy with God. Your Spirit is connected with God's Spirit, and you just want to glorify Him with all your heart. You don't have to pray in tongues to experience that. In fact, Dennis, I'd be willing to bet you have experienced that at least to some level with God and know what I'm talking about. By the way, I'm just going to share something real quick since you brought up the "foul language". When I first received the gift of tongues (you'll still talk to me now, right?), foul language instantly became repulsive to me. There was a person I knew (who never spoke in tongues) who had been a Christian for 20+ years, who swore heavily. It never bothered me like it did until I got the gift of tongues. As I heard her talk, it troubled me like it never has before. I kept thinking to myself, "Wow... If only you knew how much you were grieving the Spirit to speak like that. We were created to praise God." It bothered me A LOT. It still bothers me. In fact, when I hear a Christian who cusses regularly, there is an instant "check" in my Spirit. If anything, praying in tongues has taught me to guard my words and exercise self control. How can the same mouth that praises God commit dishonor towards Him? I'm not upset at you Dennis (although, I admit last night, my blood pressure was up!). In fact, I feel as if I better understand where you are coming from. In a lot of ways, I once felt as you did. I had the same wariness and fear. I'm calling it fear, because at the root of it, I think that's in essence what we're dealing with here. Let's face it--it's a sort of "weird" thing. Right? It goes against all of our logic, all of our natural tendencies. Funny, lots of things of the Spirit goes against our natural tendencies. So I get it, Dennis. I really understand your point. But if I may... You're making a claim based off of your bad experiences. That's really not fair. I'm not so naive to think that this post will influence you to be more open or accepting. I think your mind is pretty made up. But maybe, just pray about it. Pray for God to reveal truth to you. If God reveals to you that tongues is awful... Well, then there you have it. BUT, if He reveals something to you from His Word that surprises you... Well, you have to promise that you'll admit that . Blessings, Grace |
